Honestly, I don't see why there are so many pacifists in Celest, well I partially do, maybe someone could correct me on this:

Magnagora is based off intelligence and domination, not with brute force or zealous, and our two patrons are Fain and Raezon, one is based on intelligence, while the other is based on plots.

Celest is based off zealous war-mongers who want their empire back. They are crusaders attempting to destroy all aspects of the taint. Their two patrons are Lacostian and Isune, one is Wisdom while the other is Compassion.

Anyone else seeing a problem? Is it because there is no actual war-mongering divine there to lead the citizens, that is why there are more pacifists?

I've said for a long time that I'm unhappy with the Divine we're associated with. It's unfortunate, and nothing against Lacostian or Isune at all. But I just don't think either are the best fit as Patron of Celest, particularly Lacostian. But there are no more suitable alternatives, and so we've got to work with what we have. I'm praying to Estarra we'll get someone more in line with our ethos sometime soon, but they both do fine helping us out when we need wherever possible.

Isune is about compassion, but she also despises the tainted, to be fair. I see her as being fairly close in ethos to the Light itself. Ie: be nice to everyone unless they're tainted, in which case kill them right dead.

Most people just see her as a living buzzword, though. Compassion, yay. Once we get the Order organized, hopefully it will be made more clear that we're not all about blind, stupid, tolerant compassion.

The Light for which Celest strives is also influenced by the Supernals. So you have followers of the teachings of Raziela, who want to just love everyone until they come into the Light (ugh) and Shakiniel who holds more of a defensive teaching. There you have the possibility of someone taking those teachings more strongly than others. Of course, we're meant to take them all in moderation, as Elohora teaches, but there it is.

Besides, it would be quite Compassionate to end the suffering of those infected by taint. A good start might be burning Magnagora to the ground. It is quite Compassionate to nature, a good burn allows regrowth.

No kidding. Recently, just for the amazingly invigorating RP, I've made and played a Viscanti paladin. One of the most sarcastic critics I've had is Ms. Compassionate herself.

*Note: I don't mind*

Don't want to critizise but compassion that isn't blind, what is that? Biased compassion? Segregation?
Is the idea to be compassionate but only against certain types of people?
Doesn't sound like compassion to me. But I see your problem. How fun is it to spew blind, stupid, tolerant compassion?

Hmm... while Isune is a determining factor in New Celestian politics... it is my Lord Lacostian that is the patron of New Celest. I am an freshman novice in the aquamancers, so I do not study of the practice and theory of Lady Isune... but I dont think my Lord Lacostian is very pacifist. I've heard quite a few people perhaps say he is... and I offer you only another point of view. I dont see him as a pacafist nor the aquamancers as pacafists at all... and infact before I go on I've told others of Celest publicly that, against what odd's there were, new celest fought quite well in my opinion. It could have been worse.

We are not pacafists... we are just very careful. We think first before we make our action, and make no mistake... when our city does decide to bring down a mighty fist, we will do so severely. Of that I am quite confident. Do you think strength is measured in the number of soldiers you have? Or how much essence is in your nexus maybe? Or perhaps the might of your god alone can turn the tide? If one thing is certain it is that Spirit is not measured in might... New Celest now has no villages and I doubt many people will forget that when the time comes to fight.

War mongers? Hmph. Hardly.

Why would you show Compassion to those that reject it? Ask yourself that, then ask yourself why you think Lady Isune would or should show such a great thing to you, or any others who follow the path you do? We've they of the Serenwilde in the Order, too. I'm only biased against those who would reject the fabric that makes up Compassion in its real, unbiased form. That would be Compassion that's not blind.

That of course raises a few interesting philosophical points. However, it isn't as simple as saying "You seem like someone who would reject compassion in its real, unbiased form."
Once we start to add subjective things like that into it, and different perspectives, it'll turn into a complete mess, and it'd most likely turn out into having compassion for your friends, and hatred for your enemies, and that's not really compassion.

It's like saying its democratic to not allow un-democratic people to run in public elections.

Oh, and "Rafael", this is an out-of-character board, therefore I'm not going to ask myself anything, because Lady Isune doesn't exist in my world - in our world.

I think silvanus's intital post is just wrong. 1/3 of the city of magnagora, is by definition brute force. Ur'guard are not asked to think for themselves. they are asked to follow orders.

I think celest is full of pacifist because when people joined the game they saw influence and said "yay I can bea pacfist" then they saw paladins and said "yay thats the city to join to be a pacfiist in"

The last part is what caught my attention when the first people were elected. The Queen's Own torturer part refers to Queen Nifilhema, who is expert on torturing, expert on pain.


The last part refers to the Weeping Amarantha, which Nifilhema uses to torture victims upon.

AB NIHILISM REVILED:

In my point of view, Ur'Guard are experts on pain and are supposed to follow Nifilhema, using sensitive parts to inflict the most pain upon enemies.

Actually from what I saw, ur'Guard cared little to nothing about the Demon Lords. If we were asked to defend them, we did it, but it's the Nihilist's department, not the ur'Guard's.



Ellara, while she was an ur'Guard, tried to encourage Troopers and initiates alike to use their heads when they needed to, under the argument that "it could save their bloody lives". Also, she drilled into them the importance of following orders "unless you have a damn good reason not to. 'Because I felt like it' is not a good reason".

Ur'guard reside in the tower of inescapable damndation, the Tower of Pain and Cruelty, is to the South of the Ur'guard, the Demon lord who's souls get captured under the Ur'guard tower is Ashtaroths. So my guess is, while the leadership are more into pain and suffering to others in some wierd aesthetic way, the actuall footsoldiers of the army follow ashgaroth who if I'm not mistaken is pure brutality.

The undead, those who Urlach made into his army for the empire of celest were the ones who went to villages and towns to be the "police" while the paladins were more closer to the leadership as the body guards. And while there are a few people in the guild who like people to think for themselves and not be idiots, the teachings and instructions given to people are just expected to be followed no questions asked.

To me. that defines brute strength and thuggishness. At the same time, I think the ur'guard if they are spiritually linked to any demon lords, would me linked in some way to all demon lords, since we serve any of them just as easily as the next one.

Now, back to being on topic... I think the biggest problem celest has had with its role.. is from what I implied earlier. People joined Celest with a role in mind that was not based on the story of Lusternia, they then looked at the story of lusternia to find thier excuse for that role, and at that point raised its influence in the story.

But then thats probably why Magnagora has to push back new converts with a stick.

I speak IC on the Life in Lusternia boards here, don't take it too personal.

No, you 'dont seem like' someone who'd reject Compassion in its real, unbiased form. You ARE. You have to give before you can take. Now, just like Lady Raziela's teachings promote true Compassion, it stops short for Tainted beings and that's when Methrenton is in place. This is ALL a philosophical point, like you said. You don't want to show others Compassion? Don't expect any yourself.

In my opinion there is a quite simple reason for pacifism in Celest - Achaen Shallamite players migrating to Lusternia and playing their characters exactly the same despite New Celest being quite different from Shallam.

Most pacifists in Achaea are Droods.

Celest will either rise up and be counted or continue to be crushed but there will be very little room for pacifists in its early days at least. Once the city population is much larger, it will be able to cultivate roles that are completly non-combative.

Agreed. It's too early for people to do absolutely nothing in combat, at least in terms of progressing the city. Sure, you can do commodity quests, influencing, or whatever, but you'll have to fight eventually.

Currently Celest is a mix between Shallam and Antioch. Some people there think like they're wining and so can spit at everybody else "because I am more enlightened than you".
We despise everything and that is just plain pathetic, because we're losing. We try to find outside excuses for our failure, without noticing that instead of organizing ourselves like Mag did, we're just playing the little child and pointed fingers and lose time. Is really a shame that a city that by the default race and history should be more chaotic, disorganized and difficult to control than us has done such a better job than us.

Remember, zealots care about doing the work. That means, spreading the light, not just showing around how enlightened are they. I and many others just find Celest to be a disgusting place where some people try to stuff you with Light.

well I can see some points considering the past couple day's events... perhaps you are right, but for the sake of arguement, I dont think the aquamancers fall into that category of Pacifism... hell, Aris is a Celestine and he seems to be the first person to step up and orgonize stuff when the time comes for it. I think there is a good mix of people in the New Celest community that just need some time to feel each other out and get orgonized. For an evil community this is easier to do because they are evil and their motto is basicly "Murder Death Kill" and everyone can relate to that. For places like Serenwilde and Celest who dont operate on that level it's a bit harder for people to see eye to eye and coordinate things accordingly, but I think things are heading in the right direction. We just need to stay unified, and stop this bashing of fellow citizens! That, in my opinion, is the main reason why Lord Lacostian did what he did. There should be no tolerance to that sort of lack in unity. No matter what patron you have that wont change untill the means to justify starts with all of us. Whatever is being done is not our patron's fault and it's not fair or right to blame it all on our patron saying he did nothing. Perhaps doing nothing was the lesson he wanted to give us. We cannot place blame, if something happens, on one person alone... and that is what Lady Jem was trying to say the other night, and I for one agree entirely with her. If someone says we are doing something wrong and something happens because of that, it should not be our first instinct to just say "Go to hell, what do you know?" or suddenly look for a scapegoat. The way of things should first be that we should learn from what that person did and attain a state of tolerance and unity to achieve what is obviously not being achieved!

The point is.... instead of calling someone a traitor, or a pacifist... or anything at all... look through that persons eyes... step into that persons shoes for just a moment and think to yourself how you can use that person's point of view to make things better, so people won't think like that ever again! Blindly argueing about it or saying Lacostian didnt do this or the Order didnt do that isn't going to get you anywhere but into a disagreement! We dont need that kind of hatred within the ranks of the city, and if that's what you encourage, then I openly question your loyalty to Celest.

Wasn't Lord Lacostian's ideal exactly that? Let everyone do whatever they want?