Every so often I see someone in Serenwilde, and I'm sure this happens even more in celest, talk about how they "don't want anyone to die" or "get hurt" or have to lay down their lives for a cause.

People talk about death much as we do in RL, as something terrible, lamentable, emotional, and most importantly permanant. You could question these people and they would tell you its good RP, death is bad, death is harmful and well, permanent. But death isn't permanent.

Attitudes toward death in a world where death isn't the end should be completely different. If death merely means a couple IC days of work to regain lost power, to some death isn't a setback at all. Imagine Frank, the scholar. He, from an IC perspective, doesn't care about his health, or level, or ability to kill things. He merely seeks knowledge. If he's visiting a hidden temple, dodging whirling blades and whatnot to recover a scroll, his death means nothing at all.

Sure, by the time he gets it all right he might be level 2 again, but that doesn't matter. He has absolutely no IC justification for caring.

Maybe a bad example, but thats not the point. The point is this: Pacifism in Lusternia has absolutely no IC justification. Death leads to some hard work, injury has no lasting consequences whatsoever. Who cares if I'm blind and deaf with my guts spilling out on the floor and no ears? All I have to do is eat some herbs and I'm totally okay. Sure, there is pain but there's no lasting injury or meaningful death.

Thus, If Pacifist x from celest tells me that I shouldn't go slay the infidels, they are acting in a completely arbitrary manner. For that matter, so am I. The pacifist shouldn't care that I'm slaying people because really there's no lasting damage. I'm not in any way kicking them out of the world or ending their life by any stretch of the imagination. On the flipside, why do I bother slaying the infidels? Assuming that I could say, kill Daevos, the effect of doing so would be no more than wasting two hours of his life getting that xp back. Thats also only if he had to pray, barring vitae, lich, conglutinate, ressurection, resurgem, immolation, and the countless other ways of reducing this lost time as a result of death.

By killing him I haven't affected anythign in the long run

What I'm saying is people should take into account what their characters would actually consider death to be in a world where death is not the end. Its actually better RP.

I see where you are coming from but I have to disagree on the point about pacifism.

RPing a pacifist is a valid choice whether death is to be feared or not. Pacifism is, in my experience, never about fear of death or pain but rather and ideological and moral standpoint. They say ‘enough is enough’. Causing pain is wrong, whether curable or not, and there are better ways to go about things than flex your muscles.

That is, in my opinion, pacifism. Not fear of death.

I completely disagree. In fact, it annoys me when people treat death as inconsequential.

You might get your cord cut, you know. The fates actually argue about it, because Atropos thinks it's time, the others say, "Not yet!" Death IS permanent, it's just suspension of disbelief that we get returned every time. It might not happen, from an IC perspective.

Silvanus thinks Atropos is out to get him and is itching to cut his thread, and trying to get the other Fates to agree. So, Silvanus hates to die.

I think that RPing a pacifist is a legit choice, HOWEVER, I cannot stand the desire in some people to have such a lifestyle made easier for them via coding in the game. i.e., some way to become immune to attacks and death by virtue of being a pacifist. Pacifism is not something to hide behind. Dying for your cause makes your point stronger. If you just want to chat and kill mobs and never get attacked or be involved, then I don't think Lusternia is for you. But I'd have respect for someone who played a pacifist, even knowing it would cause their death time and time again.

On a separate note, I've intentionally played Olan unlike previous IRE character(s), especially regarding death. It is easier when death and undeath is a built in part of the social structure you join, but even beyond that, I've never let fear of dying motivate me. I jump into any fray that involves the city I've sworn to protect. I follow our leaders to death again and again. I die, def up, and find a way to get back into the fight. When things calm down, I look to regain anything I lost.

The only time in Lusternia I've been at all upset with a death was when the leader of a raid (or counter raid, I don't remember for sure) group made a really inexcusably poor decision that killed the entire group (some of us twice) with no real chance to get away. Even then, it was the incompetant leadership that really got me, not the death(s).

Trust me, when you get over death, the game is MUCH more fun.

I agree with Silvanus and Shiri. It's totally OOC to go, oh well, I mean it's only a few hours to bash back when I die. I sure as hell don't think Veonira loves being put through extensive pain and killed repeatedly, especially when she doesn't know if she'll be brought back again.

I wouldn't call it a fear of death necessarily. She's still willing to go out there and die if it needs to be done, but she doesn't have the attitude of "Well, I can always be revived so whatever."

OOCly, I really don't care. I get mad if I die for a stupid reason, but it's more of a passing "ARG!" rather than a real anger. The way I see it is...if I lose a level, I just get to bash more and bashing will be "easier" and get me more experience. I'm an instant-gratification type of gal.

I think it is OOC to go "I don't want to follow through on my character's duty because it might involve death." I mean, let's be honest here, death being impermanent is built into the system. If it weren't, people would rarely, if ever, die. The entire combat system would be different. You can't overapply logic to a game like this, or nothing makes sense anymore.

Olan isn't really smart enough to have complicated theories about the fates. All I know is that death often makes me stronger (learning, lich), and that serving the city is the most important thing in my life. The fates keep letting me come back, for whatever reason. If they change their mind, at least I didn't die afraid to do my duty. I'm not going to let fear of the whims of fate stop me from doing what I think is right.

I don't see anything at all OOC about that.

OLAN! Where have you been? I had to break my bloodbond with you

That's not OOC, Olan. I mean, there's no "complicated theories," it's just...if you die, you're dead.

You're LUCKY if the Fates reRaise you. OOC, I don't mind dying, but IC Nejii's a lot more afraid of it (though still willing if he must) because death MEANS DEATH. There's no..."Well, I'll be back in 5 minutes, argh, my experience, noo!" It just doesn't work that way to the Lusternians.

Ialen has noted that the Fates always seem to restore him and though he doesn't want to tempt fate (pun not intended) he views death as part of a circle of rebirth, inevitable, painful but not literally the end of the world.

Oh I agree and I wasn't saying that pacifists should get treated differently. Being a pacfist should be about knowing you can get hurt and die, but refusing to retalliate because of your standpoint on violence.

But that's the thing, it does work that way to the lusternians. Surely, if Sekreh dies 15 times (and he's probably died more) and comes back every time, he's going to get a little bit used to the idea that he's not actually going to "die" in the sense that we mean it OOC. I don't honestly believe that its ooc to roleplay the fact that death isn't permanent. Hell, I heard it on ct all the time during the war (Silvanus will be back soon, etc.) That example illustrates the fact that people don't view death as permanent from an IC perspective, its merely inconsistient to not apply it in other situations besides war and having to consider your enemies will return. I have never once seen anyone say "Oh, maybe the fates won't spare Arilyon this time" on ct in response to a comment that they could well be back soon, further illustrating that no one really thinks that when it comes to their characters.

If people were willing to rp the fact that death might be permanent that would be different and totally valid, but the fact is outside of this thread no one actually seems to rp that. I have not seen a single example. What i'm saying is we shouldn't rp death as something that is DEFINITELY permanent when IC because clearly it isn't and clearly our characters don't have even the most remote idea that it could be.

Another example: it is accepted that when you die, you can wander as a soul. If praying for salvation had the possibility of meaning a return to forgetting everything and utter non-existance whereas wandering as a soul forever merely means a huge loss of experience, who's character would really take that chance? If permadeath is a maybe from an IC perspective, why does everyone pray so readily? It makes no OOC sense to wander as a soul forever, but this would be a viable option for any character not totally convinced the chance of coming back to aid there city/commune/guild/whatever is worth the chance of eternal forgetfulness and nothingness. That is a rare trait even in lusternia. The fact that no one takes this course of action proves that RP of "possible" permadeath isn't accepted

All interesting points... but

Vitae exists, it apparently takes a lot of power to restore your life, avoiding the need for the Fates to decide if your life is over or not.

Lichdom, makes you undead, so anyone who has necromancy is going to view death differently.

There are many other ways players can bring a person back to life. Immolation in the nexus, Resurgem, whatever Celest has.. etc. So in a large battle, important people are seen as comming right back, because if the fates decide they should die forever, we can use the corpse to bring them back.

I think its perfectly reasonable for people who have no use or interaction with necromancy to think death is a terrible experience for someone that they don't want them to have. And its also perfectly reasonable for people who often bring others or themselves back to life, to really not care about it.

Its possible, that everytime I turn on a lightswitch, the bulb will burst and burn out. However, since most of the time it does not happen, I don't make it a habbit of carrying a spare bulb with me every time I go to turn on the lights. I think people's experiences with death can and would be very similiar to that of a dieing lightbulb. (Just more emotional)

Yeah, I noticed Life decided it didn't want me to play IRE games for a while. I don't blame you though, you need to do your stuff. Though, it does remove yet another motivating reason for me to bother returning at all, heh...

Sekreh, that almost makes me want to start a ghost character, who simply dies and wanders around as a ghost forever. The only problem being the fact that if you screw it up, you could be stuck surrounded by eye sigils or something. *note: do not try this at Mother*

Haha, yea Sylphas, you could just have it gag the praying messages and walk around as a soul. Maybe you could even convince the divine to change your appearance to "ghost" from "soul"

I think we have to roleplay that each death might be the last. Based on that, there is room for lots of attitudes about death. I just would like people to have those attitudes for IC reasons.

Gwylifar doesn't really fear death as long as it happens in the course of duty. He figures, if he dies defending the commune or anything else he lives to defend, and Atropos cuts his thread, it must mean he finished his duty, so that's all good.

Whereas, when he's doing things for his own sake (like trying to raise money for his handfasting and family-founding), the possibility of death suddenly becomes a lot more repugnant to him, because if he dies now and Atropos cuts his cord, he might not have fulfilled his duty honorably.

Thus, his attitude towards death is radically different in different situations, but all arising from a single aspect of his personality. I don't know if anyone has even begun to pick up any of this, though. I don't think anyone who knows Gwylifar has picked up on a tenth of what's going on with him yet.

ICly, my girl feels that each death really could be the last. Every time she's died the only reason her thread isn't cut is because two of the Fates convinced the third. In her mind, next time, it could very well not work out that way. She's willing to die if it is necessary because she loves her Guild and Commune and if she meets her final end in service to them, then she's happy, but that doesn't mean she doesn't fear death for herself or feel afraid for a friend when they die.

It's one of the reasons she serves in every Resurgem Coven she can. Not only is it basically the only way she can do any real good but this way she gets to help lessen the chances that someone she knows won't come back.

OOCly, where's the fun in ignoring the importance of death? I personally don't care about experience loss. That can be gained back easily enough with a little effot. But playing someone who cares if they live or die and feels the deaths of their friends/family is a heck of a lot more fun than someone who just shrugs and thinks "Oh, they'll be back in a few." But that's just my opinion, of course.

I'm a pacifist and I don't think I am doing anything wrong by roleplaying as such. I even left my city in part because of its involvement in a war and my indirect support of that war simply by being a citizen. eirene is NOT afraid of death, but she certainly doesn't WANT to die. it is bad RP to not do everything in your power to prevent your own death and accomplish your goals at the same time. I don't see how running around killing people is any better RP than devoting your IC life to helping Lusternia and learning, and specifically not killing things.

I totally agree with your core premise -- death is impermanent on this MUD (and most others), and I totally resent when anyone comes at me wailing and gnashing their teeth and expecting me to do the same because person X has (*gasp*) died!

On the other hand, I totally disagree with the conclusion you draw from that premise, to say nothing of how you arrive at that conclusion.

I don't play a rabid pacificist, but I do play a pacifist. War, chaos, and socipathy in general are annoyances that detract from the real business of his life. And since violence begets violence, and violence never ends here in permanent death, all that could be accomplished by indulging his temper would be a cycle of disruptive vendettas spiraling forever out of control, sucking the joy out of his existence.

As for the notion that no lasting physcial damage means "no harm, no foul", do you realize you've just argued that rape is good clean fun so long as no pregnancy comes of it and no diseases are passed?

How anyone can spend countless hours playing any RPG and then turn around and claim that what goes on inside a person's head is utterly meaningless is beyond me.