Unknown2005-01-22 08:40:32
I think they should, but I want to see what you guys think.
They take too much roleplay and add in too much OOC thoughts. I can almost be certain that people like Larkin/Zaquan (just an example) and other people who sell scripts would be very annoyed if this were to happen, but it might allow them to spend more time roleplaying, and less time creating scripts to benefit them in either combat or credits -- and also increasing their chances of roleplay.
(What I mean by system: Scripted in a MUD client using triggers/aliases/variables et cetera, to help players retrieve information on the status of their character and events happening around them to respond almost instantly in desperate combat situations or otherwise.)
Feel free to post your ideas about this as well
. (If you're going to reply along the lines of "that's stupid", that's fine, but also give a reasonable explanation for your opinion -- or don't post at all.)
EDIT: The question I want to ask is how do they actually benefit everyone as a whole, other than those who wouldn't be "good" fighters without them?
They take too much roleplay and add in too much OOC thoughts. I can almost be certain that people like Larkin/Zaquan (just an example) and other people who sell scripts would be very annoyed if this were to happen, but it might allow them to spend more time roleplaying, and less time creating scripts to benefit them in either combat or credits -- and also increasing their chances of roleplay.
(What I mean by system: Scripted in a MUD client using triggers/aliases/variables et cetera, to help players retrieve information on the status of their character and events happening around them to respond almost instantly in desperate combat situations or otherwise.)
Feel free to post your ideas about this as well
. (If you're going to reply along the lines of "that's stupid", that's fine, but also give a reasonable explanation for your opinion -- or don't post at all.)EDIT: The question I want to ask is how do they actually benefit everyone as a whole, other than those who wouldn't be "good" fighters without them?
Sylphas2005-01-22 09:21:35
If the Gods didn't want any systems, the Java client would not have triggers, macros, or aliases.
PvP would be ridiculous without any systems. A combat system as complicated as that found in the IRE games would be incredibly hard to do as well manually. There a few people who can pull it off well, but no where near the majority. PK would simply switch from those with good offensive skill to those who can read and cure the fastest. It was fun fighting as a Sentinel against friends when we both used Telnet in a computer lab. There was no way he was going to win, when I had my animals chewing on without any input from me, let alone while being axewhored. As a Moondancer, I could do the same thing.
PvP would be ridiculous without any systems. A combat system as complicated as that found in the IRE games would be incredibly hard to do as well manually. There a few people who can pull it off well, but no where near the majority. PK would simply switch from those with good offensive skill to those who can read and cure the fastest. It was fun fighting as a Sentinel against friends when we both used Telnet in a computer lab. There was no way he was going to win, when I had my animals chewing on without any input from me, let alone while being axewhored. As a Moondancer, I could do the same thing.
Sudoxe2005-01-22 09:23:04
That's stupid, I vote no.
If you think about the current speed and content of combat in Lusternia, you can probably see that if systems were banned, that the first person to attack would be the most likely victor, simply because the defender has to devote their time to curing what is happening so much more than they think about attacking. Archtypes with entities would rule the game.
There would have to be downgrades left, right, and center to bring combat down to a painfully boring pace, and undoing almost all the hard work that's gone into the game already.
If you think about the current speed and content of combat in Lusternia, you can probably see that if systems were banned, that the first person to attack would be the most likely victor, simply because the defender has to devote their time to curing what is happening so much more than they think about attacking. Archtypes with entities would rule the game.
There would have to be downgrades left, right, and center to bring combat down to a painfully boring pace, and undoing almost all the hard work that's gone into the game already.
Unknown2005-01-22 09:32:13
I swear I am going to have to dig up the essay (or it may have been a post on MUD Dev) that Matt wrote about IRE games being built specifically to use systems and triggers
Unknown2005-01-22 09:35:09
Scripts like on Java are fine, but not full-curing systems on clients like zMUD. If it was made for "full" systems, I will quit. I don't want to play on a purely-PK, no-roleplaying MUD.
Unknown2005-01-22 09:40:49
Its not a PK only no roleplaying MUD, its a Roleplaying MUD, full stop, but true roleplaying requires realistic conflict, IRE are the only games that give you realistic conflict in ALL aspects of PvP, some do PK well, some do politics well, some do economics well, IRE gets most of them done VERY well. PK here would be pointless without systems, seriously, didnt you ever wonder why combat was structured so totally differently to 95% of MUDs out there. Just as the politics system is structured differently and the economics system. IRE always have and always will be Roleplay games centered heavily around PvP, but people need to realise that PvP is not just about combat it covers a lot more things.
in fact all none combatants shuld really read this essay by Matt, and you can understand a lot more about the PvP and Politics structure of the IRE philosophy
in fact all none combatants shuld really read this essay by Matt, and you can understand a lot more about the PvP and Politics structure of the IRE philosophy
Unknown2005-01-22 09:46:25
A game that's specifically built to use triggers and systems can't possibly contain much roleplay.
Okay, what does PvP cover -- using systems -- that isn't combat?
Okay, what does PvP cover -- using systems -- that isn't combat?
Unknown2005-01-22 09:55:36
No PvP doesnt cover just combat thats my point, the only way to oppose someone in the IRE games is not combat, you have economics and politics which majorly effect the game. Its much more difficult to do that Latter two and requires more skill of the player which is why it tends to be where people start to focus after they have been playing IRE for a long time. In every IRE game, extensive spy structures always exist, there are always people from all over having their influence in politics that isnt directly related to them, to achieve and outcome they think is desirable. Economics allow people to implement trade restrictions as ways of PvP, and to use undercutting techniques to put your support behind particular partys.
The problem is that most people miss the importance that there abilities other than combat play, and so these parts (especially economics) devolves into people just giving stuff away to make people happy with them, then they continue to do it forever. People need to learn that there is more power in their control than just hitting someone, if you can manipulate the events around you.
Combat is always going to be important though, it is precisely why 75% of the skills are combat oriented. But just because you don't want to take part in combat doesn't mean you don't have to remove yourself from the game. Hell you don't have to take part in PvP at all if you don't want, but PvP WILl effect your character, politics, economics, combat it effects everyone just like in the real world. And thats what makes the potential for roleplay so much greater, a lot of the time just going about your daily business is contributing to the roleplay of the world as a whole, a vote here, a sale there, you alter the game world. Everybody has the power to make a massive difference in the IRE games and that is why they remain so popular.
The problem is that most people miss the importance that there abilities other than combat play, and so these parts (especially economics) devolves into people just giving stuff away to make people happy with them, then they continue to do it forever. People need to learn that there is more power in their control than just hitting someone, if you can manipulate the events around you.
Combat is always going to be important though, it is precisely why 75% of the skills are combat oriented. But just because you don't want to take part in combat doesn't mean you don't have to remove yourself from the game. Hell you don't have to take part in PvP at all if you don't want, but PvP WILl effect your character, politics, economics, combat it effects everyone just like in the real world. And thats what makes the potential for roleplay so much greater, a lot of the time just going about your daily business is contributing to the roleplay of the world as a whole, a vote here, a sale there, you alter the game world. Everybody has the power to make a massive difference in the IRE games and that is why they remain so popular.
Unknown2005-01-22 10:02:57
QUOTE(AlyssandraAbSidhe @ Jan 22 2005, 10:55 PM)
No PvP doesnt cover just combat thats my point, the only way to oppose someone in the IRE games is not combat, you have economics and politics which majorly effect the game. Its much more difficult to do that Latter two and requires more skill of the player which is why it tends to be where people start to focus after they have been playing IRE for a long time. In every IRE game, extensive spy structures always exist, there are always people from all over having their influence in politics that isnt directly related to them, to achieve and outcome they think is desirable. Economics allow people to implement trade restrictions as ways of PvP, and to use undercutting techniques to put your support behind particular partys.
The problem is that most people miss the importance that there abilities other than combat play, and so these parts (especially economics) devolves into people just giving stuff away to make people happy with them, then they continue to do it forever. People need to learn that there is more power in their control than just hitting someone, if you can manipulate the events around you.
Combat is always going to be important though, it is precisely why 75% of the skills are combat oriented. But just because you don't want to take part in combat doesn't mean you don't have to remove yourself from the game. Hell you don't have to take part in PvP at all if you don't want, but PvP WILl effect your character, politics, economics, combat it effects everyone just like in the real world. And thats what makes the potential for roleplay so much greater, a lot of the time just going about your daily business is contributing to the roleplay of the world as a whole, a vote here, a sale there, you alter the game world. Everybody has the power to make a massive difference in the IRE games and that is why they remain so popular.
The problem is that most people miss the importance that there abilities other than combat play, and so these parts (especially economics) devolves into people just giving stuff away to make people happy with them, then they continue to do it forever. People need to learn that there is more power in their control than just hitting someone, if you can manipulate the events around you.
Combat is always going to be important though, it is precisely why 75% of the skills are combat oriented. But just because you don't want to take part in combat doesn't mean you don't have to remove yourself from the game. Hell you don't have to take part in PvP at all if you don't want, but PvP WILl effect your character, politics, economics, combat it effects everyone just like in the real world. And thats what makes the potential for roleplay so much greater, a lot of the time just going about your daily business is contributing to the roleplay of the world as a whole, a vote here, a sale there, you alter the game world. Everybody has the power to make a massive difference in the IRE games and that is why they remain so popular.
33540
I agree with that, but I believe that too many people believe that only way to go about business with other players is combat; and if not that, then retrieving gold. And one of the reasons for this, I believe, is that systems make PvP a lot less roleplayable -- so people start believing that the only thing to do is PK.
Unknown2005-01-22 10:07:08
Think of system this way, someone with a system is like a member of the SAS, a person who is an exceptionally skilled fighter through practice and training. They exist in a realistic world, there will always be the person that if you pick a fight with them you are going to go down, fast. And there is always the person that can always seem to avoid fights no matter how controversial their actions. Some of the most memorable characters from Achaea (I choose achaea as the one with the longest heritage) are not the fighters but the manipulators.
Devris2005-01-22 10:11:48
I would much prefer systems over who can type outr pennroyal, eat pennyroyal the fastest.
It's not a perfect system for a game, but it is much better than having none at all as anyone who can spam afflictions would dominate those who don't use them.
It's not a perfect system for a game, but it is much better than having none at all as anyone who can spam afflictions would dominate those who don't use them.
Unknown2005-01-22 10:17:29
QUOTE(Devris @ Jan 22 2005, 11:11 PM)
I would much prefer systems over who can type outr pennroyal, eat pennyroyal the fastest.
It's not a perfect system for a game, but it is much better than having none at all as anyone who can spam afflictions would dominate those who don't use them.
It's not a perfect system for a game, but it is much better than having none at all as anyone who can spam afflictions would dominate those who don't use them.
33545
Aliases and macros can fix that first problem. This would make actual experience triumph over scripting knowledge.
My main reason for wanting to ban systems is roleplay, not to make combat more/less fair.
Shiri2005-01-22 11:07:59
Anything more than a JAVA system, which I use, is marginally depressing to me, because I can NOT beat anyone with any sort of ZMUD system no matter how hard I try on account of my own being so bad. However, as much as for selfish reasons I'd like to see anything more than BASIC triggers and aliases and macros obliterated, not only would this kill off a huge portion of the playerbase, but - well, as has been said, IRE combat is BUILT around systems. It's just not going to happen without utterly destroying and restructuring everything that IRE's combat works on.
So with a heavy heart, I shall have to vote no, they can't be banned. Le sigh.
So with a heavy heart, I shall have to vote no, they can't be banned. Le sigh.
Devris2005-01-22 11:21:53
QUOTE(Zaltan @ Jan 22 2005, 10:17 AM)
My main reason for wanting to ban systems is roleplay, not to make combat more/less fair.
33549
Another reason why this would not be a spectacular idea is many of us purchased ZMUD for the sole purpose it is good with systems. Knowing IRE games were what I wanted to play for the rest of my mudding career, I invested the money to purchase that software. If the games come back now and say that is basically useless, I for one would be a little upset by this after purchasing it.
I agree they are kinda OOC to watch a fight with, but I don't see a spectacular solution beyond that. If you ban them but allow macros, only a matter of time before someone starts desigining ways to abuse those. People will abuse anything you all them to use if you give them enough time. Might as well keep if fair by leaving it open to everyone...if you want a system GREAT...if not, that's fine too. I survived for years on Achaea without one and did quite well in all Landmarking, very rarely died as well. So
Elryn2005-01-22 11:41:29
How can you ban something that exists outside the world itself? Its like trying to ban everyone from having a certain book sitting beside their computer... how could you possibly enforce it?
Aebrin2005-01-22 12:47:06
Let's look at systems in an RP way...
People who work hard and train do develop reflexes. OK perhaps not to such an extent of some people, but there is still a trained reflex there. In some Fantasy books I've read, warriors can even defend while sleeping by moving out of the way of a knife or grabbing the hand.
It's Viable.
If they're going to plan banning systems, let's just ban players from the game.
People who work hard and train do develop reflexes. OK perhaps not to such an extent of some people, but there is still a trained reflex there. In some Fantasy books I've read, warriors can even defend while sleeping by moving out of the way of a knife or grabbing the hand.
It's Viable.
If they're going to plan banning systems, let's just ban players from the game.
Aebrin2005-01-22 12:51:46
Heh now I wait for Shiri to wake up with a thought "There's a new post".
His worldly trained reflexes - the new post alert.
His worldly trained reflexes - the new post alert.
Shiri2005-01-22 13:21:02
I was already awake, I'd just made my comment already and no one posted anything I really disagreed with. 
13 saying, "No" vs Zaltan sayig, "Yes." Hm.
13 saying, "No" vs Zaltan sayig, "Yes." Hm.
Unknown2005-01-22 22:25:40
I'm pretty sure combat systems will never be banned, no matter how much you ask for it to happen.
If I weren't allowed to write the fun and challenging scripts I write for these games, I would not be playing them. You can't tell me that I don't play a role, either. You don't know anything about my roleplaying.
People can complain about the conflict in the game and being "forced" into fighting a war when all they want is to sit around and talk with their friends. They complain because they don't know how to fight and perhaps they don't want to know how. A similar view could be presented that is in opposition to this one and be just as valid. Some folks have lots of fun sparring and working out new combat reflexes or tactics, and they could care less about the histories or everyone's description or the latest spat on the public news boards.
Personally, I try my best to play a role, but what I most enjoy is working out scripts to support my character and what he likes to do. (Besides, it's been a good excuse for me to finally learn some Python, which I'll one day be able to use as a marketable skill.)
If I weren't allowed to write the fun and challenging scripts I write for these games, I would not be playing them. You can't tell me that I don't play a role, either. You don't know anything about my roleplaying.
People can complain about the conflict in the game and being "forced" into fighting a war when all they want is to sit around and talk with their friends. They complain because they don't know how to fight and perhaps they don't want to know how. A similar view could be presented that is in opposition to this one and be just as valid. Some folks have lots of fun sparring and working out new combat reflexes or tactics, and they could care less about the histories or everyone's description or the latest spat on the public news boards.
Personally, I try my best to play a role, but what I most enjoy is working out scripts to support my character and what he likes to do. (Besides, it's been a good excuse for me to finally learn some Python, which I'll one day be able to use as a marketable skill.)
Hazar2005-01-23 01:56:58
Developing a system is the equivalent of training IC. You spend time on triggers, it's like your charecter's studying herbs and potions and how to recognize/use them quickly.
Without systems, the intense, addictive, and varied combat in IRE games wouldn't be possible.
I'd go into more depth, but most everyone's convinced, anyhow.
Without systems, the intense, addictive, and varied combat in IRE games wouldn't be possible.
I'd go into more depth, but most everyone's convinced, anyhow.
