"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. AND YOU WILL KNOW MY NAME IS THE LAW, WHEN I LAY MY VENGEANCE UPON THEE!"

Ezekial 25:17

First of, take notice of only what has been highlited in bold. It is around those lines that I believe that in Lusternia a Vigilante Council could be set up to supplement the Avechna system and try to mantain excessive PK without reason at bay. Take notice, that this idea has been entirely inspired by Dumihru's justiciar knight idea posted in the A Skill Idea to Curb PK thread.

Anyway, I believe that what Lusternia needs, is a more sentient way to keep control of the PKs in the realms. A way for people to actually try mantain Order and following some sort of agreed law. Meaning, that the Vigilante Council would serve as jurors, prosecutors, judges and executioners. The Council would have the sole purpose of making sure that there is no unjustified PK without punishment. And probably a greater way to show that there will always be consequences for a person's actions. Of course, for this Council to serve, two things should be remarked completely: The Council would stay in service only during times of Peace (any station between out all wars), and would be comprised of representatives from every corner of Lusternia sworn to remain impartial and not let their personal favoritism shroud their judgement. All this under the supervision of an Overseer, a Neutral Divine. All of this to ensure that the system by itself doesn't become an abuse, and stays true to it's purpose.

Over all, the Council of Vigilantes would be comprised by the following:
-Three delegates from Celest
-Three delegates from Magnagora
-Three delegates from Serenwilde
-Three delegates from the rogue community
-One Neutral God acting as Overseer

How the council members are selected would be by the form of referendum. Each and every delegate would obviously have to be residents of the place they are to represent. Also, to keep certain that no other role obstruct their judgement, it would be a requirement for every candidate to have no roles in the office ANY city NOR commune. Nor be of the Champion, Protector positions of the guild.

To further try ensure a functional council, and to avoid any form of duress upon the Vigilantes themselves, every 10-15 years new elections could be held for new Vigilantes replacing the former party of Vigilantes.

Once the Vigilantes are chosen and the Council is formed. All delegates must gather and make a Pledge over any Public Forums, stating their purpose (the Law) and swearing impartiality when enforcing the law, bringing justice upon the unjust, something similar to the following:

From this day forth, no one of the mortal kind shall be slaughtered without reason, blood shall not be spilt upon the land senselessly. Whenever blood is released upon the lands, unjustified, so shall the mortal coils of the perpetrator be eviscerated
All whom suffer a transgression by the hands of a wrongdoer... Evoke the Vigilantes and Justice shall be Done.

Ours is the virtuous and equanimous coin of retribution.


Followed by the Signature of all the Vigilantes and the Overseer.
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Once the Law is stated, to be able to enforce it and mantain the order of the system and be functional, the following needs to be ensued:

An Infamous system similar to Achaea's where a person's reputation goes degrading and made pubic, keeping track of every "violent" action a person commits. This Infamous system could reset every "year" (Lusternian year), so people may start with a clean reputation every year, if a person HAS BEEN ACTIVE for a the time equal to an Lusternian year.

Also, to further represent those who engage on manslaughter, within the honors of every person, a Victim count should be present. Every time a person kills someone the kill count increases, this of course being one of the actions that lead to infamy. Both, the amount of persons killed under someone and the notoriosity of that person's reputation would be the determinant factor's of that persons punishment. Meaning, the more one kills and infamous is, the more severe the punishment.

To summon the Vigilantes, upon being slain or a transgression being commited upon, the victim shouts beseeching a hearing by the Council. Or if no Vigilantes present, that person messages to either delegate. Upon the hearing, the Victim testifies of what happened. After the hearing, the Council debates and investigates to verify what the Victim testified. And determine whether the wrongdoer merits paying the consquences, meaning if it is determined if he/she has done a wrong. Also, upon their debate, they determine the severity of the punishment and engage on accomplishing it.

In order for the Council determine whether a wrongdoer is deserving of punishment, the present Council members will make a referendum. Upon voting, the results must represent a majority vote for the punishment be carried out. Once an agreement has been reached, the a Vigilante, serving as emissary, goes to bellow Avechna and blows a horn enouncing that the Vigilantes have reached a veridict.

Punishment is as follows:
-If the crime is severe, or wrongdoer is Infamous, the Council SUMMON AVECHNA , so the very Avechna himself consumes vengeance upon the unjust.
(I have a small scenario in mind of what might happen, but I'll refrain from posting it)
In this case, Avechna would not only slay the guilty, but also pacify him according to the amount of persons he has killed (means that it takes notice of the Victims Count).
If ten persons have died on the hands of that person, then that person shall be peaced for ten Lusternian days and so on.

-If the crime is minor, the present Council members, wearing executioner hoods to conceal their identity, gather in persecution of the guilty and an scenario opens.

When the wrongdoer is found, a Vigilante asks:
a hooded figure says, " you have been found guilty of , choose your punishement..."

Another hooded figure offers either pillory or execution by saying:
a hooded figure says, "Death or the pillory?"

At this point, if the victim chooses the pillory, the Vigilantes take the guilty under custody and lock him in a pillory right under Avechna's feet. The amount of time a person is locked is determined according to the severity of the crime, and the amount of Victims under that persons name bellow 10. Meaning, that if the crime is minor and person killed only one, the person is placed under the pillory for two Lusternian days, up to a whole month for 10 kills. After 10 kills, the time in the pillory is more.

If the guilty chooses execution. The Vigilantes proceed the following:
SUMMON JUSTICIAR KNIGHT afflict/kill. Either killing them, or afflicting them with pacification for a Lusternian month. This depending on the Vigilante's judgement.








Also, because the Council would be an international "institution" it would be forced to have a homebase, if any, outside of any city or commune. And because the goal of the council would be to perform a role of justices and law bringers, equally, the Vigilantes should be free to accomplish their duty without the obstruction of local governements or laws. Not to say that the Vigilante law would be over anyone, because in the end the sole purpose of the Vigilanantes would be to punish those who deserve it to avoid impunity.

If any Vigilante is found being of a judgement prone to be shaped by personal ties, the Vigilante shall be replaced. If a Vigilante is found creating conflict, or participating in any conflict involving reckless and senseless manslaughter, then the Vigilante shall be a canditate to suffer Vigilante Law. Though, it is to avoid any form of favoritism and rupture of the law, that the Overseer would mantain Order within the council itself.

In order to ensure the safety and "purity" of mind of the Vigilantes, the following would be needed:
- Every Vigilante would be in possession of a special hood that conceals their identity, meaning that tells, messages, says, and looking at them only show a hooded figure.
-Every Vigilante may only wear this special hood when they have been summoned until they carry on their execution.
-A Court Chamber bellow Avechna must exist. For two things to occur:
1)The hearing, where the victim testifies in the presence of the Council
2) And a Private chamber where the Council gathers, isolated from outside forces (no tells, no messages can reach them. In this chamber, the council decide what will be the course of action to take.

The Council Chamber may only be used by the Vigilantes, and only when they have been summoned.
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As stated, this Council would be in place as a supplement to the Avechna system, not as a replacement. Meaning that the Council would try to act as Avechna's right arm and carry on with justice as seen fit.

*will read idea in a moment, but is quickly marking this thread as one out of the two to receive all replies so that the conversation doesn't get bisected*

No.

Anything that 'big' like that with player interaction will never work.

Joke-er, Oakstone, anyone?

I really fail to see how this would be like Oakstone.

First of all, the ONLY law that the Council would oversee is: PK.

Second, the council would be formed by chosen delegates of Magnagora, Celest and Serenwilde.

Third, the council court room would not reside anywhere inside a city or commune, avoiding being subject to local law

Fourth, because it is something Lusternia has agreed upon. And the delegates act as people responsible of punishing those who excess PK without any reason whatsoever, you would see the Council be assembled, only when someone has been murdered without sense.

Fifth, to prevent anyone's judgement ruled by their favoritism, you would have a god overseen the process and the Vigilantes forced to have a majority vote to punish anyone.

Sixth, the Vigilantes wouldn't have any trade monopoly, so everyone could be able to continue their regular lives as usual... with the exception that if someone wrongfully slays another, the Council is summoned and the criminal punished.

Things I would love to clarify:

The point of this council is to remain neutral at all times. Once a member of the council fails to be neutral he/she shall be removed from the position and replaced by the Overseer or by the majority of the Council.

Also, to avoid loyalty conflicts, during times of declared open war, the Council members residents of the conflicting sides would have to remove themselves from the Council until the duration of the war.

I realized that the selection process wasn't made clear. Basically, people without positions in office from every city/commune may act as candidates (if they fall the requirements of not being known as berserkers nor criminals). Cities/communes then open a Referendum where people vote on the eligible canditates. Three of the top candidates then become Delegates in the Vigilante Council. Meaning, they become Vigilantes.

If only to be able to say: "I. am. The LAW!" - yes

Go Pulp Fiction!

I think in principle it is good. How would punishment be awarded, and how would it be enforced. I, as a pacifist, would never bring a case before the council if I knew in doing so I was condemning he who I was reporting. There should be economic and alternative punishments to just death. Also, would these representatives be elected, appointed, or what? How would rogue representatives be selected? I think that certainly the rogue element should be present, but do you really think that it should be equal to that of the cities? there are many less rogues than citizens of any city/commune... I like it in principle, but it may need a good bit of tweaking before being instituted, if at all.

I was JUST about to post that .

In case a pacifist doesn't desire to see the death of the perpetrator, he may ask the Vigilate's to pacify the perperator. This would prevent from the wrongdoer further bringing any harm to anyone else, without harming the wrongdoer himself. A pacifism is a benevolent punishment, and a great alternative to mantain peace.

And yes, the Delegates would be elected by the city/commune they reside. And only people who have no roles that connects them too much with their homeland, and those who are known as being persons of sound-mind and free from criminal reputation, may serve as Candidates.

Rogue elements should be able to select their own delegates, maybe by form of a clan forum (if rogues have a clan of their own). In the begining, I considered the rogue element to be a wildcard, a vote that would be completely dettached from party loyalties. Meaning, that I would expect for the rogue to be much more impartial than the rest, and with the power to sway the results with his/her vote. But then I decided that the number of delegates should be equal, without regarding economic, political, background.

There is no rogue clan that I am aware of at the moment. I admit I was only a rogue briefly, but there really aren't a lot of them. Anyways, pacifism seems like a fitting punishment, and that would certainly meet the goal of limiting pk

No rogue clans? Yeah, I know that. But probably rogues out there would want to organize, to take roles on world-wide events that would impact them. In any case, Public forums could serve as communication between rogues. Every rogue (the existing few) could post why they consider they are suitable for the position. Take notice, that a rogue's reputation, as well as everbody elses', would always be under the public's eye. So, you would be able to have an idea if a person is worthy or not of the position.

Edit: Something I forgot to mention. The pillory is actually a quite peaceful punishment. With the only difference, that the pillory serves to detain someone. So, it would be much like someone being peaced, with the difference that whomever is in the pillory isn't able to move at all.

I guess the only problem I still have is that with so few rogues, some insane pk master rogue could run for the position, and with the limited number of people rogue, and with positions on the council open for about 1/10th of all rogues (30 rogues may be an overestimation of the active ones) he would have a very significant chance of getting in. THAT would be even more chaotic then what happens now, and would be a big disaster.

No. In fact, as I've been trying to make the impression.

The only people who could be considered serious possible candidates to become Vigilantes are:

-Those who have no position in office in Commune

-Those who have a reputation of not being criminal (No slight indication of Infamous in their honors)

-Those who are not Champions or Protectors of a Guild (Intially I had the idea of banning anyone who has an office in a Guild from being a candidate, but then I realized that only Champions and Protectors are the only ones that have a position that forces them to "fight")

There may be other requirements, but right now these are the only ones I remember.
Basically, with the Infamous system along with the Victim Count always making your reputation Public, people who show a notorious reputation would never be able to become a Vigilante. This from trying to prevent them abuse the powers of justice, and ensure completely that the Council remains neutral. Of course, an element of great importance is the Overseer, a Neutral Divine in charge of keeping the council in order and their members true to their pledge.

such a system would be a strong desire for me to create a criminal that is on the judging panel but is not known to be said criminal, and to wreck havoc.

I'm evil like that, since I'm so nice in RL.

You would have to persuade every Vigilante to actually do anything And if you manage to do so, the Overseer could take notice and be done with you all... And then the people enrage create a mob and lynch you.

Basically you need the vote of the majority to carry on with an execusion or else you wouldn't do anything. It isn't infallible of course, because no one really knows how human nature really is... so the system could become corrupted, but thankfully with a God above the Vigilantes, it could be made clean if any signs of corruption were evident and renew the Vigilantes to stay according to the pledge: neutral and responsible for carrying on justice.

Oh, I could always come up with a good reason to not execute someone, and make money doing so.

And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall now that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

You misquoted the movie -AND- the Bible in one swell foop! Shame, shame, shame upon you.

Re your idea: It won't work.

He says anger in the movie, not rebukes.

I've never heard it translated as furious rebukes....

And mind you, we read this quote outloud every year during passover.

I haven't figured out which version he actually quotes, that is the KJV. I think the quote he gives is a mixture that QT thought would sound good.

The point is that it is the LORD (or Yahwe/Jehovah in some translations), not the LAW. If it was the 'law' then neither the Biblical quote nor the way he uses it in the movie would make any sense.

Allow me to create an scenario for you, so you get an idea of how the system is supposed to work.

Killer kills Victim, when Victim was innocently sitting on the road.

Victim shouts for the assistance of the Vigilantes for retribution.

The Vigilantes gather. They summon the Victim and tell her/him to testify. Victim tells his/her tale in the Vigilante Courtroom. After the Victim tells her/her talel, the Vigilantes question him/her to see the veracity of the testimony. They also may investigate the case by asking other people pertinent to the case: witnesses, or even access to an Avenger Suspect log, or viewing a persons Honors (seeing their Victim Count and Infamy level). They retreat to the Chamber of Justice. They debate between each other about the case. If 4 out of 5 Vigilantes (just an example it could be 3 out of 4), decide that Killer deserves to be punished they place a referendum. The referendum then is evaluated. If the majority of votes show that Killer must be executed he will. Tough luck for the small percentage of Vigilantes that were against the execution. Because the execution will be carried on.

So, basically the system is designd for one Vigilante to be of no importance, because what would matter in the end is the majority. You would not be able to prevent anyone from being executed unless you obtained the majority of the vote, and with the Vigilante Clan channel available to the Overseer, you would always be supervised.

Also. To be more formal, the Vigilantes would be expected to post a "summary" of the case, and the conclusion. Also, logs would be recorded, like a Referendum was carried on, Avechna killed such Killer, Killer was locked in the pillory, justiciar knight pacified Killer.