Allright, this should open it up a little

...annnd now we have to choose between two options, which doesn't prove anything.

?

This poll isn't to prove it's good or bad, Ceres has a 32163 page thread to do that. This is to assess what people want.

Yes. But it doesn't really assess what people want, because some of the options overlap while others don't, so you're going to see a split where there really isn't one in terms of general opinion.

I would like to point out to you that the avenger has gone nowhere.

Other - keep it as it is, but make it that if someone attacks you and you kill him in self-defense (for example, in 5 minutes time from his/her FIRST aggresive action), you don't get suspect.
And I believe we still have the avenger system.

By go back to the avenger i meant solely the avenger, to differentiate between that and pk flags. Erk

Yea Shiri, you're right, some do overlap. Thats the price of having a poll that isn't yes/no. Sorry.

That has been discussed, it's more of a coding issue then anything. It's extremely hard to detect such things in the code, and find a point where it's useful but not abuseable.

It is impossible to create some sort of overarching AI which can determine automatically and without flaws exactly what is happening in a combat situation. It's not possible for an Admin to flawlessly determine this even with extensive system logs.

Don't ask Buho to do the impossible. He does quite well doing the possible.

Well, I am not a coder, but I think it can be done like this:
-when you use an aggresive action against someone, he gets the 'defence' (or whatever the name might be, I don't think this flag could be viewed by players so the name isn't very important) flag on you, just like when he gets a 'vengeance' flag on you if you attack him when being his suspect
-the flag disappears after 5 minutes
-when person A kills person B, we order the system to check if person A had a 'defence' flag on person B - if yes, we don't add person A to person's B suspect list, but rather remove the 'defence' flag

However, if you say so, then I guess it isn't as easy as it seems for a layman. Oh well.

It's not the code, it's the logic. If you could formally and exactly define the behavior, then yeah it would be easy to implement.

For example, I'll pick on your defense flag idea simply to show my point. What about a 2v1 fight? Alice and Bob attack John. Alice makes sure to hit first, Bob assists but does not do any attacks on Bob that would trigger the flag. Alice attacks with impunity, while Bob's entities and demesne hit John, and Bob prevents John from leaving. If John attacks Bob in self-defense, it would set the defense flag the wrong way - allowing Bob to kill John -and- neither Bob nor Alice to go on John's bully list.

This would mean Alice and Bob could kill John as many times as they like without ever worrying about the Avenger. I'm sure you could think of a good fix for this situation, but that would open up another loophole/unintended consequence which would require a more complex fix which would...you get the picture.

I've a better way to do it. We kidnap Buho, Estarra and a small child. We keep Estarra locked in a room. We tie Buho to a chair. We get the child drunk, and watch its new finger scribblings. Buho shall interpret, and that shall be the new system.

Please note that while it at first it seems those who like the Karma system hold the majority, those who dislike it and wish to have it changed to something else actually outnumber them.

...how'd you figure, Hazar?

I never believe anything should be "kept as is" Its always good and possible to improve on things as time goes on and issues come up.

These are the poll reports at the time of my post. I'll combine some of the responses:

Keep it as is (with minor tweaks):
12 votes. Also, 3 votes for the comedy 'keep and add 50-100 quests' option. However, since there isn't a reasonable option for increasing quests, we could assume that any number of these would go for a 'Keep it as is and add more quests' item. This brings the total to 15 possible votes for keeping the system and perhaps adding quests.

Destroying or drastically altering the system:
This includes the 'Eliminate Curses and nerf Blessings' option, the 'Eliminate the system and go back to Avenger', and the 'Set it so curses require vengence instead of suspect'. I'm disregarding the one vote for the comedy 'Make PK illegal' option. This is a total of 17 votes.

So 15 for keeping with tweaks and 17 for remove/nerfing into oblivion, if you wanted to interpret the result this way, meaning a majority are against the system.

Of course, there are lies, damned lies, and then statistics. I'm sure you could twist the numbers another way. Lusternia isn't a pure democracy so it hardly matters.

Pssh, statistics mean nothing! Look at the changing classes poll which basically is 62 saying something needs to be done (varies in amount) to the 20 saying it is fine. I'm not holding my breath on any changes, just wanted to get the general concensus on it. This poll here is relatively close at the moment, so the argument could swing either way.

I voted more quests.

Though I do realize how hard that is for Them.

*moves this into polls thing*

If we must keep karma, I'd prefer to see vengeance completely replaced by curses, and suspect kept as it used to be.