Someone want to accurately explain to me their point of view on why Lusternia needs karma, who agrees with that side?

I don't want to sift through 24 posts.

I don't think we "need" karma. Estarra's stated intention is to drive PK onto the planes. The first option She offered was "Primebond," to which the playerbase responded with a resounding "OMGWTFNOOOO!" Next came a framework for karma, and the poll stated that it was an acceptable way "to deter PK." (There's a lot of blaming the random PKers, but I have a gut feeling that says that really wasn't the intention.)

The gist from the very first thread was that this could be a nice extension of the Avenger. Nothing as severe as pacifism, but still makes that first kill come with some kind of slap on the wrist. To top it off, the best way to prevent suffering any ill effects at all is to simply do some non-combat related things. Interact with the world that took hundreds of labor hours to put together.

I still hold to the belief that the best way to drive PK onto the outer planes is to make some kind of dynamic struggle exist on the ethereal and elemental planes, but this is a very good first step.

That didn't really answer my question, since you don't think we need karma.

I see very few random PKs, anyone want to give me an experience (I saw Ialie's, so, I'd prefer another one and not from a stupid person).

There is confusion over what is appropriate PK. Some people keep very good records (Metagaming?) about who has killed who. They do RP their retribution by killing back. Those killed sometimes forget (or disagree) that there was some outstanding crime.

Some people are in the wrong place and mistaken for combatants. Some think it is in good rp to kill high ranking players for experience. It was mentioned on another thread someone (Kaleigh?) was killed and told it was because they where in the top 50. Daganev was killed for sleeping on someone else's island. Some of it is invasion of domain killings, experience killings, delayed retribution killings , mistakes, and the occasional jerk who gets back at a city/commune by going after its newer/weaker members just out of novicehood.

The Admins seem concerned about this. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they know the numbers better than we do.

The Admins have been responsive so far to other problems. If they want a month to see what karma does, I think they have earned it. If it is the huge mistake some make it out to be, I trust they will adjust it significantly or scrap it.

Edit: I think many people are also just tired of the ambush style attacks used by some. They don't mind being active in fighting and accept being a target. They don't like being jumped while leaving the arena after a spar, be jumped while quietly bashing. There is a perceived lack of roleplay in death on sight killings.

I have been killed by Celestians cause they thought I was Nayl. That doesnt really count, but just want to bring to the attention of the stupid people Nayl and Nyla are two seperate people.

I was killed by Kaervas just a couple of days ago out of the blue while I was collecting pilgrims.

It's ok, some people confuse me for Ravin

I've been jumped on prime a couple times and since I'm a weak rogue there's no way I could really retaliate. This gives me the option to curse whoever jumps me for no reason, it may not be much but it's better than nothing. So on top of being able to at least exact some form of revenge on my killer, we get blessings which far outway the curses and if someone has worked hard enough to earn themselves 50 karma I would think they'd spend it on a blessing since their affects are so damn useful. When the time comes that people are actually able to curse others it would seem to me that unless that person was jumped for no reason at all, that they'd get themselves a blessing instead of cursing whoever they lost to.

That will teach you to try and gather Karma against a champion who doesn't lose Karma killing you but gained a lot stealing your pilgrims. Ah, the joys of Karma.

I think Karma is a good idea. Why?

Because it makes the actual completing of quests and round out the nature of the the "important" people in a city.

As people become more imaginitive in the ways they handle conflict, the world as a whole become more interesting.

I dislike that everytime quests need to get done, it involves PK.

I think Karma is a bad idea. Why?

Because it makes the actual completing of quests mandatory and causes the big people to come and do all the quests that little people like me use for experience and gold.

As people are denied the oppurtunity to do much PK at all, due to the threat of horrific repercussions, the realm becomes less interesting.

I dislike that every time PK needs to get done, it involves quests.

We all know the reasons why people don't like karma... there are over 30 pages of that. Silvanus was wanting to hear why people do like karma.
please try to stay on topic.

Bah! Some people don't kill you because they think you are Ravin. (Remember the time I was fighting you and Ravin, and kept trying to hit Ravin when it was only you in the room with me?)

Whoa.. that was kinda harsh? What was that about? I don't think I have ever even interacted with you.

I think the "I've seen Ialie's" and "not from a stupid person" were unrelated. Unless I'm under-reading.

Silvanus and Yuniko killing me while I was waiting for a spar. Yeah, I like karma. Hell, I _love_ karma now. Now I can curse every little punk who does overkill or attacks at a public location where my presence wasn't causing harm. Am I an enemy of Magnagora, uhh.. yeah, who isn't?

I have to agree, it's those things that curse will be extremely handy for, but I'd really like for it to be extended to theft and dilute as well. Since dilute, pooka, dominate, and vestiphobia (via hex) do not kill you or give you suspect, but still can screw you over pretty damn badly, there should be a way to counter this kind of abuse.

If I was a non-combatant and someone that doesn't have me listed as a suspect does any of these things to me, I can't attack back or that would eliminate any chance of suspect (assuming declare/defend goes in) or if I do I will be killed defending myself against an aggressor.

Actually, you betrayed Magnagora. So I hunt you whenever suspect is lost on you