In our effort to address karma concerns and by extension the Avenger/suspect system, we want to further refine how suspect is determined. Our little coders have been brainstorming how best to address this valid point and I’d like to present you with a possible scenario which I think will hopefully make the majority of you happy though it will slightly modify player combat.

First, I’d like to take a moment to ask your indulgence to help work with us in designing a system that everyone can live with. I’m really not all that interested in hearing that we need more quests on other planes, or that it’d be too buggy, or that we’re ruining your lives by trying to curb PK. We know nothing will be perfect and we really aren’t trying to ruin your lives (honest!). But we are trying to develop some balance wherein Lusternia is a realm that everyone can feel welcome in. So some compromises on all sides need to be made.

REWORK OF SUSPECT STATUS: DECLARE/DEFEND

DECLARE: Anytime you make an aggressive action on someone where you could get put on their suspect list for killing (i.e., neutral area on the prime plane), you must first DECLARE . This tells us that you are initiating combat (it won’t tell your target and takes no equilibrium/balance). You can have multiple DECLAREs at once. When you enter battle, if you die to your target, you will gain no suspect status on them because you initiated the hostilities. If you are attacked, you may defend yourself without worrying about your attacker getting suspect on you.

DEFEND: If your friend is under attack, you can DEFEND and attack anyone who initiated combat with them without worrying about getting placed on their suspect list. Note that no one can defend the attacker because that person initiated the combat. If friends of the attacker want to jump in they’d have to make their own DECLAREs (and be put at risk for getting suspect if they get the kill).

In this manner, the Avenger will only look at those who initiate attacks on non-enemy territory on the prime, and exempt those who defend themselves and those who come to another person’s defense from getting suspect status. Yes, this is another step in combat but by forcing players to physically input that they are consciously making the decision to be the aggressor (and thus be open to suspect from their target and any defender), we hope that combat on the prime at least be taken with a more thoughtful approach.

We are also looking on solutions for those of you who are worried that you can’t defend certain quests (or stop people from working on certain quests) without gaining suspect.

Hopefully this will address the majority of the fears surrounding the as-yet untested curses portion of karma but please let us know if there’s some gaping holes we are missing or if this is a system that you can live with.

I really like it . But what is to stop people not declaring?

I like how this sounds, especially the Defend part. Now would a Champion have to be in the room with the person he wishes to Defend, because once you Rescue them, they are gone from the fight and you replace them. If you can declare defend for someone and then Rescue that would be great.

It sounds good so far. Will you be required to be in the same room as people you declare against or defend for?

And at what point does the declaration or defence wear off?

I'm feeling a bit dense right now.

Why not make the 'declare' implicit with any aggressive action in which one isn't a defender, or in one's defending territory?

I'm liking the way this looks, though I'm scratching my head over why an extra step has been added in for when one attacks another.

So far I like this idea. When I first read it I was a little slack jawed thinking about the mechanics of it. However upon looking at it again, I can see that the declare side at least would not be that difficult.

target (name);declare (name)

Pretty easy to do in one alias and fight away, it is just one extra step in targeting.

I could handle a system like this. It frees up alot of issues many of us have with Avenger and puts little overhead in for what we need to do in order to keep fighting when we want.

The Avenger will stop you if you don't declare. You won't be able to make a hostile action without declaring first.

As for having in extra step in making DECLARE, part of that is a coding issue, we've run several scenarios where it would be implicit but we've determined that's open to more bugs and loopholes than having the player actually commit the command DECLARE. Also, I rather like players having to consciously make the choice to DECLARE themselves the aggressor.

As a loud, anti-karmite, I like it.

As a pro-karmite, I like it.

Question, though. If I declare someone whom has suspect on me, do they auto-get vengeance, or only when I attack?

I hope the latter. If so, I'd just like to make sure declaring isn't going to set off timeslip etc.

It sounds reasonable enough. The only reason I dislike it is that it takes away a little of the fantasy of Lusternia, but sacrafices must be made and this one can be ignored for the reasonable nature of this system.

They'd only get vengeance if you kill them while they have you as a suspect (same as it always has been).

Ah, then it sounds wonderful. The only other problem I could envisage is in a larger-scale battle, or with covens, where declaring/defending could get quite confusing in the heat of things.

Edit: But then again, if this system works... that shouldn't happen much at all. Ignore me. *cough*

No. They get vengeance if you ATTACK them, a SECOND if you kill them. The second one gets you xp back, the first only kills 'em with no xp return.

Oh right!

Then, to answer the question appropriately, declaring isn't considered an attack but rather a prelude to attack so no.

Alright. Just wanted to make sure.

So, to re-iterate, this has the official stamp of Eri-proval.

How long do declares last? What if someone declares on someone, then the other person declares on them and attacks before they do? Is the effect of the Avenger removed? If so, in duels, if they both agree to declare and one secretly does not, it will screw over the one who did. *ponder*

While it adds an extra step to combat, it appears on the surface to be a great idea. I am concerned that currently when you invite someone to a Coven, it's a form of aggressive act (as you cannot invite someone who is graced) and that this would require a leader to declare those they want to invite to covens as an extra step in forming them. Afterwards, would there be a way to undeclare?

I'm all for this and have the following suggestions:

Add something to UNDECLARE, please. I don't want to DECLARE in anticipation of a raid then have it stuck there forever.

Also, how is the 'agressor' determined for DEFEND? The first person to DECLARE or the first person to actually attack?

Thirdly, make major curses only possible on vengence, not suspect.

hey it's worth a try

I like this quite a bit. Doesn't preclude my distaste for Karma as it currently works (I think the Blessings and Curses are both over the top) but it's definitely a step in the right direction.