Dragons

by Archthron

Back to The Real World.

Archthron2005-05-02 22:05:42
Just to clear up on some confusion as to the anatomy of dragons...

The reason dragons can breathe fire is because unlike most animals in the world, the are nitrogen based, inhaling it somewhat from the air and then breathing out partially digested carbon-based products that then can be lit on fire through a mechanism in their throat. The combustion reaction clearly requires these carbon compounds, so it cannot be hydrogen-based fire, as someone suggested. Also, the dragons would burn themselves very painfully unless they either had a breathing pipe made of scales or some such thing, which would prevent breathing, or if they had a windpipe made of some fairly fire-proof material, nitrogen for instance. The other place they gain nitrogen is from proteins, which is why dragons are carnivorous; they have no need for carbohydrates. What carbon compounds they do ingest are expelled in fumes, which is where the fire-breathing comes from.

More on this later...
Narsrim2005-05-02 22:17:10
Dr. Peter John Hogarth, the biology consultant for Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real, is the senior lecturer in biology at University of York, in the United Kingdom... and he disagrees with you.

As he quite clearly describes in the Discovery Channel special, the most feasible method for a dragon to breathe fire would be for them to ingest inorganic minerals such as platinum, sparking a catalytic ignition of its gut-produced hydrogen.

Furthermore, the hydrogen bladder also helped dragon fly.

----

In sum, I win.

My proof

Archthron2005-05-02 22:28:06
That's all very nice, of course, but it doesn't solve the many mysteries of the dragon all at once, it merely shows the parts of dragons that we can envision for ourselves, like bone structure and flight. And while we're on the topic of flight, the reason that dragons are light enough to fly is because their bodies are less dense, due to non-reciprocating properties of nitrogen compounds, which causes the dragon's body to easily fly because it is made up of loosely connected parts, as opposed to a carbon-based animal's compacted form.
As another disproof of your animal planet thing, it does not in any way show how the fire stream would be regulated in a pure hydrogen-based fire. For a dragon who would breathe too slowly or too long, or for that matter be breathing into the wind, the fire would spread down the throat, engulfing said dragon in fire from the inside, which, in the scenario shown in the special, would kill the dragon. Case in point.
Archthron2005-05-02 22:29:26
And, to stop your arguments, this would not cause a problem for my form of dragon, because due to the fact that they are basically fire-proof, the windpipe could be choked off with little to no harm, and the fire would cease.
Narsrim2005-05-02 22:32:33
QUOTE(Archthron @ May 2 2005, 06:28 PM)
That's all very nice, of course, but it doesn't solve the many mysteries of the dragon all at once, it merely shows the parts of dragons that we can envision for ourselves, like bone structure and flight.  And while we're on the topic of flight, the reason that dragons are light enough to fly is because their bodies are less dense, due to non-reciprocating properties of nitrogen compounds, which causes the dragon's body to easily fly because it is made up of loosely connected parts, as opposed to a carbon-based animal's compacted form.

As another disproof of your animal planet thing, it does not in any way show how the fire stream would be regulated in a pure hydrogen-based fire.  For a dragon who would breathe too slowly or too long, or for that matter be breathing into the wind, the fire would spread down the throat, engulfing said dragon in fire from the inside, which, in the scenario shown in the special, would kill the dragon.  Case in point.
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Tell me, how exactly do you think you are qualified to dispute my source when:

A) It has the backing of many well-known, PhD level biologists who actually were paid to research this topic and discover the most feasible method for dragons to exist, breathe fire, etc
B) You haven't actually seen the special just clips from the site I sent you
C) The research into this project was about 5 years... what's yours?
Narsrim2005-05-02 22:34:57
Scientific Inspiration: Many animals produce light. The chemical light produced by bioluminescence is found in many marine animals — jellyfish, comb-jellies, fish, crustaceans, bacteria, and others. Light is produced to search for prey or to lure them within reach, to hide from predators, or deter or confuse them, for navigation, and to find a mate. Bioluminescence on land is less common, but glowworms and fireflies (actually a species of beetle) are familiar.

Bioluminescence is "cold light," or light that is efficiently produced by biochemical processes without heat production. No actual animal, apart from man, uses fire. The nearest is the bombardier beetle (Brachinus). This animal has evolved a remarkable defensive system: it emits a rapid burst of scalding, irritating chemicals in the face of its attacker.

The process is complex. Cells in the tip of the beetle's abdomen produce hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and substances called hydroquinones, which are stored in a reservoir. This reservoir is connected to a thick-walled reaction chamber by a valve, controlled by a sphincter muscle. The reaction chamber is lined with cells that secrete enzymes. When the reactive mixture of hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinones is passed into the reaction chamber, the enzymes break down the H2O2, releasing copious free oxygen, and catalyzing the oxidation of the hydroquinones. The reaction generates enough heat to bring the volatile mixture to boiling point and vaporizes much of it. This greatly increases the pressure within the reaction vessel, forcing the valve shut (preventing backfires) and expelling the mixture explosively through openings in the tip of the abdomen.

-----

This is the inspiration behind the hydrogen theory. There is a great deal of modifications for the dragons but this one basis they used to explain how they breathe fire. They even made all these cool models and computer simulated programs to test it.
Archthron2005-05-02 22:47:35
You see, the thing you are missing is that there is no precedent among other animals for the behavior of the dragon's anatomical system. The reason why no other animal uses fire is because, well, 'if you play with fire you're gonna get burned.' Carbon-based animals are designed to burn, because the basic formula for combustion is a combination of hydrocarbons and oxygen which gives of heat, producing carbon dioxide and water, however if there is no carbon then the animal will not burn, which was the original basis for my theory. However, the difference between these theories is that whereas the scientists took 5 years to come up with ideas for all the parts of the dragon, my theory has the simple power of covering them all at once.
Unknown2005-05-02 22:52:36
QUOTE(Archthron @ May 2 2005, 12:47 PM)
You see, the thing you are missing is that there is no precedent among other animals for the behavior of the dragon's anatomical system.  The reason why no other animal uses fire is because, well, 'if you play with fire you're gonna get burned.'  Carbon-based animals are designed to burn, because the basic formula for combustion is a combination of hydrocarbons and oxygen which gives of heat, producing carbon dioxide and water, however if there is no carbon then the animal will not burn, which was the original basis for my theory.  However, the difference between these theories is that whereas the scientists took 5 years to come up with ideas for all the parts of the dragon, my theory has the simple power of covering them all at once.
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What is this? Pure and utter nonsense.

user posted image
Archthron2005-05-02 22:54:44
Actually it is basic chemistry.
Narsrim2005-05-02 22:56:15
QUOTE(Archthron @ May 2 2005, 06:47 PM)
You see, the thing you are missing is that there is no precedent among other animals for the behavior of the dragon's anatomical system.  The reason why no other animal uses fire is because, well, 'if you play with fire you're gonna get burned.'  Carbon-based animals are designed to burn, because the basic formula for combustion is a combination of hydrocarbons and oxygen which gives of heat, producing carbon dioxide and water, however if there is no carbon then the animal will not burn, which was the original basis for my theory.  However, the difference between these theories is that whereas the scientists took 5 years to come up with ideas for all the parts of the dragon, my theory has the simple power of covering them all at once.
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Well then, I'd be interested to see you describe the digestive system in a nitrogen based organism given that all other forms of organic life (which I'm assuming your dragon is technically inorganic?) have a digestive system that burns in a carbohydrate flame. That is, it is impossible to effectively (or even at all) digest fat or proteins without having a constant breakdown of carbs (I can cite some literature if I must to prove this).... because your theory explains it all... right?

EDIT:

Also, I'd be interested in how the nervous/endocrine system works given the role of gluco-based proteins, hormones, etc. Also, I'd be interested to see how the break down of proteins is used to fuel the brain given all the physiological issues that would arise include tons of toxic waste products.
Unknown2005-05-02 22:57:05
QUOTE(Archthron @ May 2 2005, 12:54 PM)
Actually it is basic chemistry.
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No, Narsrim has displayed basic chemistry. Most of what you have stated, is simple nonsense.
Archthron2005-05-02 23:08:03
Anonymous - Look, it's really a very simple formula: Hydrocarbon + XxO2 >>> YxCO2 + ZxH2O. This is the formula for combustion. Also, what is simple about Narsrim's comments? And I quote
QUOTE
The process is complex.
You don't have to side with him just because he is your bashing partner IG.

And to you Narsrim, I say: Can you get it in your head that this is not a carbon-based animal I am talking about??? It does not need to digest basic carbohydrates because it does not use them for energy, it can break down any complex carbohydrates or fats the way everyone else does: with water! Like this: Sugar1-Sugar2-Sugar3 >>> Sugar1-H2O-Sugar2-H2O-Sugar3 >>> Sugar1-HO + H-Sugar2-HO + H-Sugar3 and so on. Before making foolish objections, perhaps you could try to refute some of the objections I have made to your theory.

Also, another objection to add: how does your dragon keep a constant bubble of hydrogen? If it is open to air, basic dispersion laws would make it disappear very fast, while if it is closed, then how does it breathe it out? Anyways, get back to me if you have any serious arguments, instead of saying "OMG, I don't believe it, without even reading it! Your argument is therefor BS!"
Narsrim2005-05-03 00:14:37
QUOTE(Archthron @ May 2 2005, 07:08 PM)
And to you Narsrim, I say:  Can you get it in your head that this is not a carbon-based animal I am talking about???  It does not need to digest basic carbohydrates because it does not use them for energy, it can break down any complex carbohydrates or fats the way everyone else does: with water!  Like this:  Sugar1-Sugar2-Sugar3 >>> Sugar1-H2O-Sugar2-H2O-Sugar3 >>> Sugar1-HO + H-Sugar2-HO + H-Sugar3 and so on.  Before making foolish objections, perhaps you could try to refute some of the objections I have made to your theory.
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You seriously have no idea what you are talking about and just because you are starting to annoy me, I'm going to crush you. Behold the power of a physiology major who has a final tomorrow:

#1 You don't break down fats with just water to get energy:

In metabolically active tissues, fatty acid break down depends on continual background level of carbohydrate catabolism. Given that acetyl-CoA enters the citric acid cycle by combining with oxaloacetate to form citrate. Oxaloacetate generates from pyruvate during carboxylase, which adds a carboxyl group to the pyruvate molecule. The degradation of fatty acids in the citric acid cycle continues only if sufficient oxaloacetate and other intermediates combine with acetyl-CoA formed during B-oxidation (the process to metabolize fats).

However, these intermediates are continually lost or removed from the cycle and need to be replenished. Pyruvate formed during glucose metabolism plays an important role in maintaing proper level of oxaloacetate. Low pyruvate levels bring about reduced levels of citric acid cycle intermediates (oxaloacetate and malate), which slows citric acid cycle activity. Without carbs and glycolysis, you cannot metabolize fats.

#2 You don't break down proteins without carbohydrates to get energy:

Protein conversion to pyruvate is dependent upon mitochondria (to be converted to acetyl CoA), which would not be able to exist (nor would any known organelle) in a nitrogen-based complex. Furthermore, the same rule applies once we have acetyl CoA, you need carbs to provide the bulk of the pyruvate because you need it to make oxaloacetate.
Narsrim2005-05-03 00:15:32
QUOTE(Archthron @ May 2 2005, 07:08 PM)
Also, another objection to add: how does your dragon keep a constant bubble of hydrogen?  If it is open to air, basic dispersion laws would make it disappear very fast, while if it is closed, then how does it breathe it out?  Anyways, get back to me if you have any serious arguments, instead of saying "OMG, I don't believe it, without even reading it!  Your argument is therefor BS!"
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It had a hydrogen bladder, which it uses to store nitrogen. This is not open to air until it is ready to breathe fire.
Silvanus2005-05-03 00:22:09
You do know Fire-breathing dragons do not exist, and its made up in a fantasy world...
Narsrim2005-05-03 00:24:43
QUOTE(Silvanus @ May 2 2005, 08:22 PM)
You do know Fire-breathing dragons do not exist, and its made up in a fantasy world...
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I'm fully aware. I am just stating that the theory I am opting to use alongside the various PhD biologists including many well known biologists support it in that whole, "If dragons did exist, this is how it would be feasible for them to fly, breathe fire, etc."

This crap about them being nitrogen based does not only make no sense. There is no evolutionary proof to back it... and any novice in physiology will tell you that it wouldn't even be possible for it to have a functioning digestive, nervous, endocrine, etc. system. You might as well say they are aliens.
Faethan2005-05-03 02:00:48
I'm gonna have to give this one to Narsrim. The nitrogen explanation does answer some questions nicely, but I feel like it raises too many other questions.
Daganev2005-05-03 02:23:43
According to that movie I forget, a dragon has two sets of glands in its throat.

One gland produces one chemical, the other gland another chemical... as the dragon spits them out, they mix together and create napalm.
Unknown2005-05-03 02:37:53
QUOTE(daganev @ May 3 2005, 11:53 AM)
According to that movie I forget, a dragon has two sets of glands in its throat.

One gland produces one chemical, the other gland another chemical... as the dragon spits them out, they mix together and create napalm.
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That was "Reign of Fire", I believe.
Unknown2005-05-03 02:49:50
QUOTE(Narsrim @ May 2 2005, 05:32 PM)
Tell me, how exactly do you think you are qualified to dispute my source when:

A) It has the backing of many well-known, PhD level biologists who actually were paid to research this topic and discover the most feasible method for dragons to exist, breathe fire, etc
cool.gif You haven't actually seen the special just clips from the site I sent you
C) The research into this project was about 5 years... what's yours?
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Reading below, I DO believe your arguments are stronger, but this appeal to authority is weak.