This has come up a few times and so I got to wondering if maybe I wasn't reading something correctly. So I'm just asking, if Estarra would be so kind to respond.



This original post came up in the context of a discussion about the Avenger system and if it's working. When I read it at the time, I thought it meant that Estarra thinks that insults don't constitute a valid reason for PK (full stop), and that this would be codified if they were ever to go to an issues system of PK resolution. So my question is, have I understood this correctly?

Estarra, is it your opinion that insults, by themselves, are not a valid reason for one player to kill another?

This has just come up because some people have tried to argue that Estarra thinks insults are a valid reason for PK, and it's only if Lusternia went to an Issue system of PK resolution that it wouldn't be, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Others have argued that since Avenger doesn't watch the other planes, they don't even need any reason at all to PK people up there, and that RP isn't "enforced" in Lusternia.

I know that most of you are going to argue one way or another, and present all sorts of game mechanics to support your opinions, and I don't want to discourage such a discussion if it'd be useful. (or maybe no one will respond at all and I'll win another award for the deadest thread in the forums )

However, I'm mostly trying to find out if Estarra feels, on a meta/philosophical level, that insults are not a "good" reason for PKing someone (as in sufficient justification by themselves, or good RP). And this primarily because I want to see if I've read the above post correctly, or if I've been mistaken all along.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

someone close this thread, if its a direct request for estarra to reply, send it via email

WHen in a classroom and asking questions, its rare for the student to go up to the teacher and whipser the question

Either way, it's not really relevant. Our realm does not work via issues, it works via the Avenger and Karma systems. As such, you can absolutely be killed for shouting insults, as the system is self-governing. Whether it's a good reason or not is moot; There is no such thing as a good or a bad reason to kill someone in Lusternia at this time.

Maybe you missed the bit where I was suggesting that other people should jump in and offer their thoughts. I'm interested in the discussion as well, and interested in seeing what other people think, as well as finding out what Estarra meant by the quote.

It's wrong for me to ask for a clarification publically?

Even though I am not Estarra (nor do I play one on TV), I'd say the whole concept of Avenger and karma prevents this from even being an issue. In Lusternia, the general idea is you can kill someone at any time for any reason you want. The person you kill can, alternatively, karma curse you to at make your life more difficult for doing so, or if you kill them enough, can sic the avenger on you, thus reclaiming the XP you took from them and pacifying you.

This works, up to a point, along with the RP ideals that we seem to have here that if you do kill someone for calling them a funny name, not only do they have avenger and karma, but you may also be receiving a visit from their very angry commune/city/guildmates.

So, it doesn't particularly matter what any one human being might consider a "valid" reason to kill another player. The system takes care of that, even if the system may have some warts. And of course, there's always the fallback position of using an issue, if someone is absolutely out of control murdering everyone, but odds are that person will be karma cursed out the wazoo and avenger pacified until doomsday, and there's no need to drag the admin into it at all.

EDIT: Got ninja'd.

Your opinion that it's not relevant is noted. However, relevance in posts is hardly a major criteria, or have you not been reading the same forums I have?

I've seen people asking for clarifications of quotes and opinions on meta things before, I don't think I'm asking for anything unusual.

Well, I was really referring to relevance as far as the game's dynamics are concerned. What I think doesn't matter to the way the game works, nor does what Estarra thinks, unless She decides to change the entire system, at which point the matter regains some stature. But as far as whether or not it matters to the game, it quite clearly does not.

If someone insults me enough publically, or privately to the point where i take enough offence, I'll hunt them down later for it, rather simple concept.

If i'm in a bar, and someone insults me to the point of really pissing me off, personally i'm likely to break a pool cue over their head and beat them down with it.

Someone else however, may just back off. Both are valid reactions

Fair enough, but I'm not asking about the game. I'm asking about the quote and what it means on a meta level out of curiosity. I don't expect it to change the game.

(totally nothing to do with the game at this point, sort of a hijack but...)

What is "to the point of really pissing off"?

At what point do you think the law recognizes you having the justification to assault someone for using *words* against you?

(genuine question 'cos I don't know) Are there places where you can beat someone up for calling you names, go to court, and tell the judge "He wouldn't stop calling me a Blah, so I beat him up" and the judge says "Well that's a valid reason for attacking someone and causing them physical harm. Case dismissed"?

to the point of pissing me off, is where I get offended.

I never said my actions were LEGAL, but if real life was a movie, and i was acting an agreesive type of person, then in the movie that person would indeed re-arrange a person's features for such comments

Yes, you can solve personal issues within the system.
There are insults and insults. Being rude or disrespectful is different than continuous offending and hitting the weak spot. If you infuriate and provoke the enemy, especially one who is known for quick temper and disregard for life (say, Murphy), you should expect to die.

Well, its a quick temper combined with the "I'll get you later, when its most inconveniant and you aren't expecting it" if the person wont accept my treat to duel.

disregard for life of enemies is totally rampant

Well, from my conversations with Her, and my own evaluation of the topic from the same vantage point, it is nearly impossible to police what is insulting "enough" to merit PK. Players can invent any number of reasons why they might feel insulted by what someone says, and then slay them for it. Allowing this only takes up time from the administration better spent making the world more enjoyable, or handling issues that have a bit more meat to them.

To say that this means that, in Lusternia, RP is not enforced, or that by allowing it to happen Estarra agrees with it, is simply false. The route that Estarra et al. have taken with the administrative aspect of Lusternia is to design a system that can be as self-sustaining as possible without interference by human administrators. In doing this, the hope is that these people (who are never, ever hired on simply to spend all day handling issues) can do more productive things. By using the systems that exist in Lusternia, Estarra's aim is to limit the desire of those who might PK over insults (thinking they may get away with it by passing it off as RP) by placing the control of that person's fate in the hands of the victim.

It's something of a sleight of hand, in that the system both permits and discourages such behavior from those within it. As for the outer planes not being covered by this system, saying that those places are open-PK and RP-free is an insult to the work the team has done. People do not ignore deaths or behavior outside of the PMP simply because the Avenger does not take affect there. What you do on the Astral plane or wherever else is going to affect the perception others have of you, and no amount of objections to the contrary will change that.

We are given many freedoms in the Lusternian world to express our prejudices and ideals that we do not have in other realms, and while at times I think people take this for granted, it's something that has an impact on the everyday life of almost the entire Basin. We have seen enough instances of poor RPers being thrown to the curb, or even good RPers making poor decisions and getting ostracized for it, to know that RP is a very important factor in the way our world works. PK is and will always be a large part of it, but the culture of the realm and the perceptions of the playerbase will always regulate it to a point where it is consistent with the intended aims of the administration, with their occasional interfering tweak an extremely minor player.

Brylle, the Avenger, Karma and the fact that Lusternia only encourages RP, and doesn't enforce it, completely void the point of this thread, next!

There IS the idea of 'fighting words' based on the case of Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire: Essentualy if someone says something leud enough, for no other reason than to be leud, it would be in the fault of the speaker for making you angry enough to attack.

The courts don't seem to like the law and get very picky at state laws involving it, but it's still out there.

Sorry for the hyjack. I'll bring it back to the point.

I believe what's meant there is that if I curse and sware at Murphy, I can expect to die for it. If, by some reason, the gods get involved (say, it somehow turns into a war involving half the world and 300 posts on Public) and Murphy's RP is put to question, if he says "She pissed me off with those shouts" he'll be flayed alive by the gods.

Of course, I probably wouldn't be making shouts like that any time soon: last I checked, Cwin is still inept in her "Turn into magical-girl and slaughter all heathens with her wand" skill, making enemy-creation a bad tradeskill to practice.

The aim of the Lusternian system as I see and understand it is first of all to make it a part of the realm as opposed to a facet of administration. Ideally, the realm would police itself, but unfortunately, natural bias (of which we are all guilty) prevents this from ever happening, thus, the Avenger system was created. As Estarra said, the system is by no means perfect and as I am sure you have seen, it is constantly being scrutinized and altered (Poor Roark had to give up Saturday-afternoon golf now that Estarra has him chained to His computer).

This doesn’t mean the holes are there to be abused, what it means is that it is the players’ responsibility as well as that of the gods, to use common sense, moral values, and laid down laws to fill in these gaps and make for a realm that is inhabitable and can be enjoyed by all layers of society.



If you don't have anything of value to add, please refrain from posting degrading replies, thank you.

I was curious about what Estarra meant when she said what I quoted, and curious if I'd misunderstood it.

Additionally, I was curious what other people thought about this on a meta level (meta means outside the game mechanics, like the philosophy).

What actually happens in the game, and what the game mechanics imply about how things work in the game isn't the point of the thread.

I don't see how it was degrading Kidaen, I'm just annoyed by Brylle constantly calling every player childish, petty and immature for having their virtual character causing Brylle's virtual character to lose a measly point of virtual experience, without writing a novel about why they did it.