As a new player, I am finding it very hard as a member of Glomdoring. It's not really the number of people there, it's more that nobody seems to show any interest in anyone but themselves and their friends. The commune and guild channels are extremely quiet, and news posts are few and far between. People seem ok if I ask specific questions, but with such a culture of silence it can be a bit intimidating and I often feel foolish for not knowing something. It is hard to ask when everyone else around you seems to know what they are doing and assumes you do to.

An example of this was during a period of village influencing. I asked several times if there was anything I could do to help, but was ignored. I appreciate this was probably a busy time and the great and the good of the commune didn't have time to handhold some newb who probably doesn't even know what village influencing is and certainly wouldn't have been much help anyway. I understand that. The problem is if you don't make the effort to help new players feel included in what goes on then they will lose interest and leave. Now I think twice before asking anything and often just get on with my own thing.

Nobody has offered to show me any quests or explain about combat, skills etc. I wasn't given a tour of the commune, or told where anything was. Nobody has suggested places to hunt, or to avoid, or who our enemies and allies are, or where to buy goods, or even what equipment I need etc. I do have a mentor, and again they have answered questions when asked, but there has been no active encouragement or guidance. It was basically, welcome to Glomdoring. Thanks. Ho hum. I am slowly figuring things out on my own, and I know a lot of information can be found in help files and the like, but that is not always obvious to a new player.

Maybe people just assume you already have another character in Lusternia, or have been playing IRE games for years, and just get on with their own thing in their own little clique. Unfortunately, while an experienced mudder, I only have a little experience with other IRE games and only have one character in Lusternia. I think if I was new to mudding in general I would have quit by now.

I guess the main reason I am so surprised is that I have played other muds which emphasize community based conflict and PvP and found completely the opposite to be true. In those games people have gone out of their way to help new players and make them feel included in the guild/city because they recognise that these organisations need active committed members to compete successfully.

It's a real shame as I love the setting of Lusternia and the whole rp feel that the world has, but right now I am finding it tough going.

I am wondering if all the cities/communes are this unfriendly, or was I just unlucky to pick Glomdoring? Do other people feel the game is like this, or have I got completely the wrong impression?

A lot of it probably also has to do with guild... some guilds will be more active in making sure their novices are learning / growing / getting accustomed to life in the Basin than others.

That said, I missed the most recent influence sessions due to the timing, but I have been guilty of not being able to say much during them... usually I'm running around trying to find and influence every single denizen I can, which doesn't give a whole lot of time to stop and talk. From what I hear, our influencers were doing much the same this time.

Can I ask which guild you're in?

The answer is yes, and no - it all depends on the person who you become associated with. When I started playing, I had a great mentor and she was able to answer my questions, show me where to hunt, and was very helpful overall. One thing you should keep in mind is that people will NOT take the initiative to tell you these things - you have to ask them questions in order to get results. Some people will be more willing to help than others, so keep your eyes sharp.

As your example with the village influencing, it's a typical reaction with any kind of city/commune in this game. During a village revolt, no one will answer your questions - end of story. It is an extremely tense moment, and people simply do not have time to respond. It's unfortunate, but to speak truthfully it is very hard to help someone who is clueless about village influencing during a village revolt. If you still have questions about village revolts, ask them again - just not when the revolt is happening. As a comparison, I personally was never taught about village revolts, but rather taught myself. I went to the village revolt, followed a random city member, and pretended like I was doing something. Now, I can actively participate in the revolts without being clueless. It shouldn't be like this, but don't be surprised if you find out that this is the only strategy to learn about villages. Geomancers on the other hand are trying to be more aware of their younger generation regarding these village concerns.

Now, you also mentioned in your post that no one has "offered to show you about quests, combat, etc." You also said "You weren't given a tour of the commune." Did you ask to get a tour? As I mentioned earlier, you have to take the initiative. You have to be the squeaky wheel and ask them (don't be a pest though) politely if anyone can help you, preferably in private tells or on GT. Announcing something over CT will rarely get you any productive responses (IMO), and people in your guild may be more willing to help you out. Atleast they should.

Hrm… where to begin…

What you are saying is very understandable – yes, receiving the cold shoulder in the Glomdoring is something that was, and is, a common practice towards novices. We –are- trying to make novices feel more ‘into it’, but it’s not exactly something you can up and do one Sunday morning. I’ve had a few people point out to me that novices were not being treated well, and I think most people could see that. Whether or not these people chose to act upon their observations…I dunno.

You’ll notice me enquiring as to the state of things, asking if you have any questions, etc, quite often. I know, at least within my own guild, there are a couple of people who purely help novices. I’m not sure about the other guilds. I try to help novices that ask, but sometimes I get too overwhelmed to go from novice to novice and squeeze the questions out of them.

So… yeah… I’m trying to shape things up, as I am sure others are. I’m sorry that you haven’t received the greatest welcome. We’re doing our best to introduce you all to Lusternia… yesterday, I put up what is basically a list of quests. Hopefully, I’ll get the time to start taking novices on field trips, etc…

It's definatly a difference in guilds/communes here. Some groups just ooze with 'luv and hugz' while others aren't realy the talkative sort. I don't believe there's realy a group that will flat out not care about their novices, but their manner will be different.

I definatly don't want to disuade people from Glom, but I always figured they were much less inclined for hand holding, prefering to have people who were individualy strong and willing to learn on their own. It's a general theme for 'dark' groups: weakness is bad and coddling is enhancing that weakness. Add that to the fact that Glom is one of the newer nations to form AND came in having to fight to survive/grow from day 1 right up to today. It amonts to a group that probably has ALOT of knowledge but little time for social development.

I bet, though, that there are individuals that are very helpful. The trick is finding out who they are.

With brand new novices especially those that are new to mudding that approach just isn't going to work. It will more turn them away. Its irresponsible to have a system that only helps novices to the minimal extent.

This is the reason I wanted to have the guild annoucements system..

There are always stressfull times when players just can't stop what they are doing and answer people's questions, on the otherhand I'm sure if you saw that there was nothing for new players to help with, and that people would be busy untill influecning was over, it would have been a lot less painfull.

There is a difference between hand holding and coddling, and guidance and encouragement. I agree that sometimes dark groups rp makes them naturally more aloof or stand offish, but I do wonder if too many people just use this as a convenient excuse because they can't be arsed to help novices

However you want to portray your particular organisation, unless you want its membership to be extremely small, you must make time to train your novice members. This doesn't have to be all snuggly at all, it can be strict and regimental if thats your thing. I think most novices want to get involved and contribute to their guild/city/commune, I know I certainly do, it's just unless you've played the game before it's difficult to know how.

I also wonder how much influence the charging model has. I have played several subscription based muds in the past where alternate characters were much rarer. It seems people may be reluctant to spend any time with novices here because they worry they are just some alt who already knows it all, or are just there to spy.

If you ever met Xenthos in Glomdoring, and are part of the ebonguard guild, you would never think that he is not trying to help novices... He is both dark and mysterious and very helpfull to our young... probabbly the best in the game

You're most certainly correct in this assumption. Everybody wants to be a part of an event. However, novices generally make three mistakes.

1) They don't ask questions. This is probably the most common problem that new players face. They are initimidated to ask questions, especially when higher ranking players are present. Atleast when I was a novice, I occasionally hesitated to ask questions because my questions were generally extremely basic, and I thought that I'd make a fool of myself if I asked. I think many novices face this problem, and I'll tell you now - the only stupid question are questions that aren't asked.

2) They aren't motivated to discover things on their own. The help scrolls are a great resource that are often neglected by novices and newer players. Instead of researching and trying to find out the answer by yourself, novices will often stop bothering to look for an answer.

3) They want to be babysit whenever possible. Novices != infants. They don't need attention 24/7. No offense tarik, but your post was a prime example of this, especially considering how you worded your sentence. (please don't take this too offensively)



Instead of saying, "I would truly appreciate it if the organization can aid me in learning about _____," you flat out said the leadership of an organization MUST sacrifice their time in order to ensure that every novice member will have proper training and attention. You're essentially demanding your elders to help you do your homework. You can most certainly ask them for help, or suggest them to hold a training session, but don't force them to take the initiative. If they want to actively be involved with novices, they will do so by their own will. If YOU want to be actively involved with your elders, befriend them and ask them questions, or ask if they could teach you a thing or two about afflictions, etc.

There are many other factors such as asking the questions at the right time (not during a village revolt, for example). If you for instance log in and find Daganev not doing particularly much except some paperwork for the Eboguard, and if you politely ask him if he could teach you a thing or two about bonecrushers, you will probably get one of two responses:

1) I need to finish this paperwork, but I will gladly help you after I finish.
2) Sure, meet me at the arena.

Guaranteed. If he doesn't response, leave him a message. If he doesn't respond to your message, you have all the right to establish him as a prick.

It all comes down to having the right attitude. Motivation, politeness, and never give up.

I don't believe that this is an issue of the Glom not caring. I've seen plenty of dark groups that guide their novices well. It's just that they tend to have more of a more 'silent' feel if you get my drift; a sort of "unhappy" feel about them. It's just unavoidable when your RP is based off of "No mercy".

The question, though, is how to make novices more welcome without losing that 'coldness'. Perhaps have something more vocal but also formalized and strait-laced.

Big-old Leader tells Cwin (a novice): You have read and understood the novice scrolls, have you Young Cwin?

Cwin tells Big-old Leader: Yes I have.

Big-old Leader tells Cwin: Then what do you say to the commune..

(Glomdoring): Cwin says, "Greetings and glory to Glomdoring"

Big-old Leader tells Cwin: Very good, Young Cwin.

Cwin tells Big-old Leader: Thank you

Big-old Leader tells Cwin: Thank you, what, YOUNG Cwin?

Cwin tells Big-old Leader: Thank you, Master Big-old Leader

Big-old Leader tells Cwin: Very well, Young Cwin.




Of course that would come after the novice understands the help files. Not crewl, but a definate "Pay your respects" there. The example I gave also helps by making sure everyone is speaking on the channel. It'll result in less 'casual' chat and more 'formal' comments, but if that might be what the commune is looking for.

Edit: In other words, we already try (at least some of us do) to do similar to this.

hmmm I have a reputation of taking up to two hours when giving novices their introductory teaching, usually they're like uuuuuh I really really gotta go you know...

Unfortunately for you I haven't been around lately 'cause I'm studying for an examn

'course, that only really helps you if you're an Ebonguard, unless you're brave and just ask me even though you've never seen or heard me before anyway...

And yes, sometimes you're just plain unlucky, and none of those who readily help novices with their baby stuff are around. Which, unfortunately, happens rather frequently due to our very small number of active and experienced members.


(If you have a question and nobody is around, make sure you at least ask on the newbie channel. It's there to help you get started, and there's just nothing like a question too simple to be asked on newbie.)

Nah. Gonna agree with the kid here. If org leaders haven't delegated people or taken it upon themselves to specifically go out of their way to ensure that novices are shown everything they need to know to be a productive member of their city/commune, they are being lax in their duties. I generally spend around 10,000 gold a day on novices out of my own pocket to make sure they are well equipped straight off, and all of my proteges are given private lessons and full use of the facilities of my Manse, and I make sure to constantly question every young citizen I come across to ensure they are in a good state of mind and are progressing at an acceptable rate. Now, Celest still has this problem, because not enough people pay this close attention to the youth, which is unfortunate, but it's something I'm working on. Part of the cultural reformation paradigm.

I'm going to have to support Torik here.

From my understanding of the guild strucutre, Undersecretaries are -supposed- to sacrifice their time to help novices. That is their duty. It is the responsibility they take on with the title. If I was a GA, and saw an Undersecretary who only helped novices by teaching them their lessons and booting them off into Newton, I'd be pretty quick to get rid of said Undersecretary.

As for Celest, it seems to be a bit inbetween. Rhysus really is amazing. I was there when he was taking on a group of 3 Aquamancer novices at once, and still took the time to help me, a paladin novice, and has helped me further times since.

While, at the same time, I was around when Alger was raiding Paavik, and the city population at the time was me, Joan, and Shinza as the only ones out of novicehood and the rest were Aquamancer and Celestine novices. These novices, were trying to plot a way to go fight Alger, for about half an hour, getting ready to go commit suicide, and neither Joan nor Shinza said anything to them at all. Yes, its awesome the novices cared enough to try and rally a defense, however, not seeming to care when said group is simply getting ready to be massacred, isn't exactly helpful.

Honestly though, I did go OOC for a bit of my help.. mainly because the Paladin population, unfortunately, doesn't strike me as those best capable to assist. No offense intended.. but.. they are just sort of.. odd.

But yeah, I think alot more effort should be put into novice training. To expect people to ask about -everything- is sort of rediculous. Some things, people don't even know to ask about. For example, how would a novice even -know- about enchantments? I've played muds where nothing like that even exists. You just can't expect truly new people to even know enough about certain things to know they need to ask.

I find its more of a two way street. If you show more interest in the commune and ask questions, you are more likely to recieve more help because you are actually showing you want to be there. Whereas if you sit around waiting for people to tell you what to do, the commune may seem like a bunch of heartless bastards.

I tell my novices to ask questions regardless of wether they think they are stupid or not. But if they dont ask any questions, I dont expect my undersecretaries to go out of their way to try and probe a novices mind.

There you go. Just keep at it and poke at the ones that don't.

Meanwhile, while I do believe that the leaders should specificly be involved with novices, HOW they act will be different for different guilds. A Glom guild giving free items to their novices just feels silly. On the other hand, ANYONE just pushing a novice into Newton is wrong (personaly I think every guild would do well trying to get novices OUT of newton asap).

Instead, I see some guilds telling a novice exactly what skills they should learn and when, what they should do from levels 1-20, handing out free health vials and herbs, showing them where everything is, ext. Meanwhile, I see other guilds who would do best to tell a novice a general idea on what skills do what, telling the novice how to Probe, tell them to check on the c/ghelp files to learn about herbs/enchantments, then say 'good luck'..oh yah, and tell them not to be worried about dying 'since they'll do that alot'.

Both ways (and variations) gives the novice what they need, but in different ways. Beyond that, it's a matter of the novice knowing what to expect when they first choose a nation/guild.

So a guild should be paying attention to their youth, but attention doesn't have to mean a personal assistant: just make sure you know how your novices should be learning, make sure that it's happening, and make double sure the novices know what's expected of them.

Which is what makes you into a great person Rhysus - you actually care about the new generation. I truly hope that you will be successful in pulling Celest back on its feet because right now, it's a mess. That being said, I also agree with you - org leaders should be looking after the youth. This however, does not translate into "sit there and wait until somebody comes and checks up on me." This attitude was the impression I got from Tarik's post, if I translate his post word by word.



What is so wrong about asking questions? When you get a job in real life, you get an introduction or a training course depending on your occupation (Hi! Please read GHELP NOVICES, GHELP LAWS, ETC). If the employee then have any questions after the training course, they have the opportunity to ask their boss (Undersecretary and above).

That being said, you can't exactly compare the Lusternian world to RL because they are drastically different, but the principals are the same. Since the two worlds are different, org leaders approaching the youth is highly reccommended - and many leaders do take action. That doesn't mean that you should sit on your posterior and wait for someone to come help you. (Unless you ask for help.)

We will have to disagree here. Newton is an exceptional place to get started, a novice can easily leave the Caverns with 20,000 gold without having any idea what they're doing (I personally came out with about 21,000 gold). I learned how to use lowmagic's circle to keep myself hale and hearty even without having access to much in the way of healthpotions, learned how to get started in the Basin. Did the quests, helped the gnomes, felt like I was getting somewhere.

If they don't want to do Newton's, fine, but it is DEFINITELY something that they should look into.

I agree with Xenthos here..personally, I learned a lot when I went to Newtons too, and it's a great way to start off as a novice. Of course, I also think guilds should encourage the novices to explore a bit outside of Newtons, it'll help them get used to the realm and learn more of the villages that exist