Further Evaluation of Pureblade and Axelord

by Daevos

Back to Common Grounds.

Daevos2005-07-24 16:11:32
Thanks to Roark, two large issues that adversely affected Pureblade and Axelord have been resolved. Namely, Cleave and the soft cap of two handed weapons' damage. But there still remains a problem with our affliction rate, and our lack of tactical skills. Speaking of Pureblade, we only have three effective wounds and they are all at critical. AmputateLeg(which is largely bugged), AmputateArm, and Behead. The lack of a Lunge/Crush equivalent to bypass stances and parry, also severely lessens our effectiveness. It is impossible for us to beat anyone who has trans Combat and Resilience that knows how to parry and stance. Since those two skillsets together are extremely powerful.

I also recentlly took a serious look at Axelord, and its remarkably similar to Pureblade in its problems. Most of the afflictions were taken from BM and BC, and were made for one handers. In the hands of a two hander who can only attack once per round, they are all vastly weaker.

Anyway here are my revised suggestions for Pureblade and Axelord:

Pureblade
This is truly a innovative idea in IRE, where dual weapons is the staple. But the implementation was a little flawed in my opinion and that stems in large part of the skills in the set. Which are largely made up of Blademaster afflictions. Afflictions that are easily cured but were useful for Blademasters since they were able to deliver atleast two afflictions at the time most of the time. The only truly good afflictions in Pureblade right now for two handed weapons, are the three critical ones AmputateLeg, AmputateArm, and Behead. But they are critical wounds and thus hard to achieve. The skillset also lacks critical chest and gut wounds, thus lessening our tactical options.

Skill Change Suggestions
CollapseLungs: Basically reiterating a opinion I stated in the Ur'guard's last envoy report. But the requirement that your opponent have a puncturedlung before this affliction is even possible is especially troublesome for a Pureblade specialists. Since they can only deal one wound at a time, and puncturedlung is extremely easy to cure. That requirement should be removed in Pureblade atleast.

LegTendon: In my study of the Pureblade skillset, I noticed that this affliction required only a heavy wound state instead of the critical wound that is required for Blademaster. That is definitely a step in the right direction. But the fact remains that this affliction is weak because it can be instantly cured by regeneration. It should be a delayed cure like damaged limbs.

CrackElbow: I can understand the reason that this skill was made to hinder only the parrying of the arm that was afflicted. But I think it should be changed, and one way to realistically explain the reason for that would be to make so that having a cracked elbow would disorient you too much to concentrate on parrying. The cure should also be delayed like most of other regeneration cured afflictions.

AmputateLeg: Thanks to Thorgal, several problems with this skill were brought to my attention. First of all, amputating someone's legs does not knock them down, so they can stand even with no legs. Secondly, they can still use skills like leap and tumble while having no legs. Thirdly, the bleeding from this wound is significantly lower than Scalp. All three of these problems need to be fixed.

AmputateArm: Just tested this skill, and I have to say without a doubt it is the best wound affliction in Pureblade. Much better than I initially thought, but it is still has the problem of doing significantly less bleeding than scalp, and realistically it should do more.

Decapitate: I am thankful that the requirement that your target be prone before this skill could be utilized was removed. But I don't think it goes far enough when you compare this to the Celestine's Judge or even to Cleave of the other IRE games. For two reasons, one both those skills are not trans skills, two the supplemental skills of both the Celestines and the other Knights assist is making the skill possible to pull off. The Celestine angel's hindering attacks, and the other Knight's falcon which could knock people off balance. To counter this, I think the power cost should be lowered.

New Skill Suggestions
Assault: In a burst of energy, you will surge forward to deliver a swift and accurate vertical slash to your opponent, overwhelming their defensive preparations such as parry and stances. This counts as a swing. Power cost: 3

Eviscerate: Charging forward, you will impale your opponent deeply on your blade before giving a savage twist and ripping it from their body. This attack will cause 50% more damage than a normal attack and severe bleeding, that will only stop when their gut is cured with regeneration. It would be a critical gut wound, and only be possible with jabs.

AxeLord
Another innovative idea by the admins of Lusternia, I personally know of atleast warrior who has longed for axes since the very beginning of the game. But not only was his request granted, but something unique was thrown into the mix. The two-handed Axe which has never existed in any IRE game. Unfortunately though, like Pureblade the implementation was a little poor. One advantage they do have over Pureblade though, is that in addition to AmputateLeg, AmputateArm, and Behead they also have Knockdown. It also lacks any critical wounds to the chest and gut. One other thing that I noticed about this skillset, is that it has even less unique skills than Pureblade. During my evaluation of this skillset, I realized something, both Pureblade and Axelord only have three unique skills each. Thats regrettable.

Skill Change Suggestions
SliceThigh: The problem with this skill isn't so much with the skill itself but more the wound state required, medium. There is no medium wound state in the wound table. There's Negligible, Light, Heavy, and Critical. If there is a medium it is only like one point or something since I have never seen it. This reminds me of a earlier complaint I had about the wound table itself though. It needs to be fixed. Currently Negligible is 100, Light 99-90, Heavy 89-70, Critical 69-0. It should be hard to get body parts to critical damage but easier to pull off those afflictions when you do get someone that low.

Chop: Personally, I like the idea of this skill. Since it highlights the fact that Axelords are masters of axes, and better at using them any one else. But I think it does go far enough, I think it should also allow Axelord to chop down totems though obviously it would take longer than to chop down a tree.

AmputateLeg: Just like in Pureblade, it needs several bugs fixed. Like being able to walk freely without a leg, being able to remain standing with no legs, being able to tumble/leap with no legs. It also needs its bleeding increased

AmputateArm: Just like in Pureblade, this is one of the best wounds in the skillset, but it needs its bleeding increased.

Roundhouse: Initially, I thought this skill was much better than it actually is. I did not know that it cost five power to use, that it didn't go through shield/rebounding, and that it didn't have a 100% chance of hitting all enemies in the room. Knowing more about it now, I can not help but consider it a weak skill that is unworthy of being a Trans one. When you compare it to skills like Darkmoon, Contagion, and AncestralCurse, which also hit enemies within a room with similar restrictions on their area of effect, this skill comes out quite unfavorably. It should hit every last enemy in the room and go through rebounding, parry, and stances not shield. While dealing out half as much damage as a normal swing.

New Skill Suggestions
Assault: In a burst of energy, you will surge forward to deliver a swift and accurate vertical slash to your opponent, overwhelming their defensive preparations such as parry and stances. This counts as a swing. Power cost: 3

Handaxes: Your vast knowledge about the intricacies of axes has taught you not only how to shape small axes for throwing from wood and iron. But also to skillfully throw them to harm your enemies from afar.

Misc.

Change Suggestions

Two handed weapons: I've thought long and hard on how to balance the afflicting capabilities of two handers against one handers without changing most of the skills involved. And the best solution that occurs to me at this time other than making the venom afflicting of two handers 100%, would be to add a chance of stunning to every blow we deliver because of the greater force and weight that our weapons hit with.
Thorgal2005-07-24 16:35:09
I obviously agree with everything, and I think most of the wounding problems can be solved by simply having regeneration always be delayed, no matter the affliction... and change the cure to mending instead of regeneration if you really want to keep certain afflictions cured instantly.
Unknown2005-07-24 16:42:00
Also, I don't know if it has been fixed yet, but you can also wield something in an arm that has been amputated... as well as still being able to attack with spells, which I think is not right.

Also I want to know how arm curing works... if you have say a severed artery in an arm, then the arm is severed off entirely and you cure it through regeneration... when the arm comes back, is the sever artery still in place? Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't be (depending on how much of the arm is in fact severed and where the sever artery is...)

Oh, and I don't think adding more venom affliction rates is the answer, I'd like to see a move towards actual wounding strategy, just a different style of strategy to BM/BC.

Ah... and also a minor idea that I like... see what the Pureblades think of it... how about the more wounded the head is when you try decapitate, the less time the strike takes to complete? The weakness I see here is in mass defending the head when it's obviously being targetted Perhaps also extend this decapitate to be used on gut and chest too, so that you can wound those down and choose one point at which to sever your foe into two fatal pieces.
Thorgal2005-07-24 16:56:46
As to the venom affliction rate being increased to 100%, this option is viable, since blademasters and bonecrushers always have the chance to deliver two venoms at once, whatever the affliction rate, axelords and pureblades can only ever deliver one venom per round, whatever the affliction rate..

Keeping this in mind, it becomes clear that pureblade and axelord venoms should actually be more effective, instead of equally, let alone less. Since they have no chance of ever delivering two venoms at once.

The same goes for the wound afflictions, we can never land more than a single wound affliction per round, so the quality of the wounds should be drastically higher, and nearly all of them will need to be delayed...which brings us to the regeneration issue yet again.
Terenas2005-07-24 17:15:00
In my half an hour fight against Daevos, he never amputated my leg or arm once, even though both my legs and arms were well below critical. Something should really be done in regarding to Pureblade and Axelord affliction rates. Even though Daevos has only 12 Dex (haha Viscanti!) the afflictions should realistically come off a bit more.

I like a lot of the new ideas, except for chop (reasons outlined in another thread already). I would especially love for collapselungs to have the puncture lung requirement removed. As it stand, I don't think I've ever gotten it once fighting all this time as a knight, all my chest afflictions eventually go to heartpierce because Collapselungs is impossible to get.

I don't think all regeneration cured afflictions should be delayed though. The most obvious example would be legtendon. If a target does not heal the leg soon enough, I can keep slicing leg tendon every 3 seconds (faster than regeneration cure) to the point you will probably never have it cured, and not to mention I can do it to both legs at once. Just changing legtendon in Pureblade to be delayed but keep BM's legtendon the way it is (critical wound, instant cure) and it'd be fine.

It seems eviscerate is a tad too powerful, especially since it's more accurate (with a jab) and has no power cost whatsoever. It should have at least a 2 power cost like Lunge to pull off so people can't just do 150% damage to you instantly + massive bleeding.

After fighting Daevos (who used only one poison- Charybdon), I honestly don't believe giving 100% poison affliction rate would be a good idea and he was only using a claymore. 100% poison rate, chance of wound affliction, and extremely high wounding wouldn't be so bad if you're using a slow axe or sword, but against a katana or klangratch axe, that would just be insane, especially against someone without Trans Resilience or Discipline. I would say bring it up to 75% chance, and if you're a Poisonist, then perhaps make it 100%, otherwise that would be too powerful.
Daevos2005-07-24 17:20:07
Eviscerate is a critical wound.
Unknown2005-07-24 17:32:17
That kind of makes it worse in some respect, once you get their gut to critical, which isn't hard, coupled with the desire of pulling off more wound afflictions.
Thorgal2005-07-24 17:34:15
On another note, armour needs to seriously stop completely negating wounds.

Without armour, I hit Terenas for 30 wounds, with armour, I hit him for 7 wounds..

blink.gif
Icarus2005-07-24 17:46:31
Parrying is a big part of warrior vs warrior combat. As Blademasters and Bonecrushers have Coule and Riposte, I would like to suggest an ability in both Pureblade and Axelord:

Sidestep
When you parry an opponent's blow, you will expertly move your body out of harm's way, causing your opponent to stumble. (Which actually causes a longer balance regain for the parried arm.)

While it is not as good as coule/riposte, it does give a small benefit when Pureblades or Axlords manage to parry a blow.

As for Daevos' suggestions, I agree whole-heartedly except the Roundhouse changes. Going through rebound, parry and stance but stopped by shield is of course very reasonable. But if an Axelord is entering into a room full of enemies, half-damage is not going to do much and, ignoring the power cost, he (or she for Axeladies) probably will not have the chance to get three Roundhouse in. I suggest the power cost to be lowered to 3p.

Regarding Amputation of limbs, I was asked by Narsrim to give him an Amputated Leg in a test and he was standing there, not parrying, stancing or healing wounds while I hacked away. It took around 5 mins of non-stop hacking at the same left leg before it actually came off. Being a Taurian, I have 12 Dex only, but it seems I am never going to get an Amputation off in actual combat unless I get very lucky.
Terenas2005-07-24 17:48:44
And with my fullplate, I take 12 wounding from a Tae'dae with Gifted Axelord and 367 precision and 19 Strength. It's because strength has a huge factor when it comes to wounding, not that armor is protecting excessively.
Alger2005-07-24 21:55:53
how about

follow through (cost 3p):
You put it up as a defence that cost balance or eq and your next slash will follow through to an extra limb. ie You hack down it will hit head and follow through to the chest, or slice left youll hit the left arm and the chest. Itll do a little extra damage and double your wounding(but on seperate parts), would also increase amount of affliction and venom rate.

hidden strike
hmm... or how about allowing them to combo on fake slashes so giving them a limited illusion capability(will only illusion slashes) that they can do 1-2 times before or after they hit. So theyll hit you 2-3 times but with only 1 real slash. Though i can think of a way to detect those easy... hmm
Terenas2005-07-24 22:28:25
I like both Icarus and Alger's ideas. thumup.gif

Olan2005-07-24 22:36:07
Me too! I like follow through especially.
Unknown2005-07-24 22:54:42
QUOTE(Alger @ Jul 24 2005, 09:55 PM)
follow through (cost 3p):
You put it up as a defence that cost balance or eq and your next slash will follow through to an extra limb. ie You hack down it will hit head and follow through to the chest, or slice left youll hit the left arm and the chest.  Itll do a little extra damage and double your wounding(but on seperate parts), would also increase amount of affliction and venom rate.
156743


Umm...
If you cut through the head down to the chest, I think the unfortunate victim would just die. And if you cut through the arm to the chest, amputating the arm seems inevitable, except maybe if you pierce, but then you'd have to attack from the side which seems a bit unlikely...
Also, having it as a defence doesn't really make sense, maybe if it worked like puissance. With time limit short enough not to be able to utilize them both with one strike (but maybe that was the point?)
Olan2005-07-24 22:59:22
There are plenty of power using abilities that act as defenses and last until an attack, especially in tarot. Why can't it be the same?

Also, you're taking the 'cut through' too literally. it doesn't have to cleave through the head to the chest, just damage the head on the way down, like a long slice that starts at the forehead and ends at the solar plexus.
Daganev2005-07-24 23:12:40
Some of these will impact your healing systems...

+ All regenerative cures will be delayed, just like curing a mangled
limb et al have always been.
+ The regenerate ability in the healing skillset now requires you to
specify what you want to cure: head, chest, gut, arms, or legs.
+ Amputated limbs when healed turn into mangled limbs. In such cases,
the mangled limb will properly heal into a nroken limb just like all the
other limb mangling skills.
+ Any quirks with crippled legs not preventing you from doing things
should be fixed now.
+ Leap requires two free legs.
+ Having both legs amputated will cause you to fall.
+ Tumble will not work with any limbs amputated.
+ Broken wrists will be cured using mending salve. (This was what it was
supposed to be in the beginning.)
+ Tutors will not tell you your remaining lessons until the next level
if your skill points are artificially modified by a divine favour or
disfavour. This was just causing too much confusion with players. No, it
is *not* bugged. It's just what the teacher was telling you was based on
your actual skill points and what you saw when you did the AB command
was how your skillsets looked with the temporary modifiers from the god
favour/disfavour.
+ The bait and tag arena games well known in other IRE realms never
really worked here. They are probably fixed, though we will have a few
rounds first before declaring them officially so.
+ Egg hunt is now officially changed to hamster hunt! No more egg hunts.
+ Charismatic aura should be working properly.

Um, I think that's it. I'm half-sure I forgot something in that long
list, but hopefully nothing that will impact healing systems...



be happy, our admin rocks.
Unknown2005-07-24 23:12:50
QUOTE(Olan @ Jul 24 2005, 10:59 PM)
There are plenty of power using abilities that act as defenses and last until an attack, especially in tarot. Why can't it be the same?

Also, you're taking the 'cut through' too literally. it doesn't have to cleave through the head to the chest, just damage the head on the way down, like a long slice that starts at the forehead and ends at the solar plexus.
156761


You're right, I don't know why I only thought about cutting in half... sleep.gif

But about the defence, Enigma and Fool are easier to explain simply as magic, while having that skill as a defence is not. Puissance, for example, is like focusing your strength isn't it? Follow through sounds very similar, so it would be strange if you walked around for hours totally tense and concentrated. Or maybe I'm picky. smile.gif

In general, the idea is cool after all.
Navaryn2005-07-24 23:21:42
QUOTE(daganev @ Jul 24 2005, 06:12 PM)
stuff


Time to use that smiley again...

worthy.gif
Shiri2005-07-25 00:35:13
Not happy that they didn't update blademaster legtendon though, they're going to be even more powerful now. sad.gif
Geb2005-07-25 00:45:26
Once the "Committee of Warrior Superiority" makes demesnes completely ineffectual, mages/druids will have to resort to sitting in their communities and playing rock-paper-scissors. The silver lining is that it may cause some understanding to blossom between the various communities, with the robe/leather wearers leading the way. tongue.gif