Note: This situation is not limited to this specific instance. It doesn't refer solely to Celest, because everyone can be equally guilty. This -specific- instance discussed merely happens to be Celest (and Narsrim, who is psuedo-Celest).

Alright, so here's the situation: Narsrim, Malicia and the usual gang are doing their now nightly raid on Nil. You guys purposefully wait until all the big fighters in Magnagora are offline, since I've watched you sit in one room for hours upon hours on end, until all the fighters log off. So the issue isn't that people are trying to be sporting and enjoy a challenging raid - you've simply waited until there's nobody who can oppose you and you can pick on the people who are stuck defending, who usually don't know how to fight and haven't bought credits. E.g., these are people for whom praying repeatedly from Nil is not enjoyable.

So you all get worldburned and die, because we have nobody to fight and we're not going to waste our time throwing ourselves at you pointlessly. You all die to worldburn (or heartstop). So far, so good.

Then, you all start bitching over shouts. What the heck did you expect? Were you honestly surprised that a bunch of low-level, low-skill, inexperienced Magnagorans didn't want to die and pray repeatedly?

The point I'm trying to make is this: if you're looking to enjoy Lusternia, then raid the Planes when there are actually people around to defend. I think raids on the Planes are great, I enjoy both attacking and defending, win or lose. It adds a lot of spice to the game that I think is vastly enjoyable. However, I don't enjoy watching what are essentially newbies die over and over, get frustrated, and leave. Likewise, I'm sure you don't enjoy being worldburned. So show some class and good sportsmanship, and pick an objective that is going to be an actual challenge for you. Leave the shouts at home.

While I agree that spiteful/boasting shouts are completely unnecessary and unsportsmanlike.. I don't think the same can be said for waiting until the big fighters leave to raid.

I'd say the reasoning behind that is pretty logical... you want to have a chance to succeed at the raid. I'd imagine its also why Ethereal Serenwilde isn't raided very often ( ), its just too risky. The same as raiding when the opposing side has greater strength in its available combatants is too risky.

Nokraenom pretty much said they can do that if they want, but if they do: expect a worldburn.

As a slight digression, can you city people try broadening the conflict at some point? Come raid Serenwilde for a change, Nil/Celestia are pretty much the only important org vs org battles at this point.

There's undefended Aspects in the Etherwilde, or better yet, the whole of North Serenwilde ripe for plundering.

This is a good distinction to make. The cases I'm talking about are when the only objective is to sit on a Plane in a friendly demesne, kill all the citizens who enter, and pick off small angels/demons/fae. This is not a challenge, and could be done just as easily when another side can mount a more challenging response.

If the objective is to take down a Demon Lord, Supernal, or Avatar, then sure, I think it's rational to do it when a lot of people won't be around. But those are not the cases I'm discussing.

I'd like to hear from you guys that go on these raids as well, bearing in mind that I'd like an open discussion from all cities and communes, and this isn't aimed at any one group in particular. Do you think they're fun? Are they challenging? What enjoyment do you derive from them? Is there a way to even the odds and make it more enjoyable for everyone?

Yup. Make citizens of the city conglutinate on Celestia/Nil. That way they're not forced to pray and thus the entry barrier has been lowered.

Stop playing the game like it has to be won. Don't aim to break peoples' spirits, thats just cruel.

Accept people are going to be asses and do things like make you pray in Limbo. Don't want to pray in Limbo? Don't make others pray in Limbo. Pretty simple really.

And above all: if you're a city, treasure your fighters. Too often I hear fighters complain that the city doesn't care, doesn't notice. They're the whorish dedicated types, more often then not slightly arrogant and high-tempered. Accept that and work with them, not punish them when they say/do the wrong things. That way they're fighting and not your novices.

In the past I've raided for the little demons of Nil, but the purpose was to kill the demons and survive defenders. Usually, I run if there's anyone that arrives because I don't stand a chance in actual combat.

I don't know if its fair to say that the point is to sit in a demesne and kill lowbies. Sometimes, just raiding itself is a challenge, regardless of whether or not you are a near-Titan capable of fighting Demon Lords/Avatars/Supernals. Also, there's a difference between challenge and suicide.

I do feel sorry for the Raezonites now, by the way. The problem of keeping shrines for conflict-involved Gods has always been annoying.

Shrines aren't really a concern, they can be replaced, as can essence. However, frustrated players who up and leave are not such a transient commodity.

I agree with Morik that change needs to begin from within. In light of that, I don't go on a lot of raids unless it's shaping up to be a challenging or difficult one. I usually die because I'm not a very good fighter, but it's fun nonetheless. I've also been on a raid or two where my side has had no challenge, and instantly (or close enough) killed anyone who stepped away from the Nexus. I didn't find that a whole lot of fun. That's why I'd like to hear from other people, because I think that most people would agree with me that the game is about the challenge and fun of playing, not in crushing some other hapless players into the ground. I'd like to look for ways people think we can improve the atmosphere around Lusternia in regards to this, and in regards to the nearly poisonous atmosphere regarding conflict and the "need" to win.

In general, I'd like to see more sportsmanship, people choosing more challenging objectives, and more skill- and level-oriented conflict (e.g., competing goals for people of equivalent skill levels, scaled up to the highest tiers)

Most of the times when i've been in that situation, where theres no one on besides me and lowbies, i just leave it, it wont make any difference me being there or not, it will only give them more experiance and cost me more. Eventually it gets to the point where you begin to ignore it because there's no point in even trying to help defend against odds like that.

if they are actually waiting around for the big players to leave then that is pretty lame, and is also an ugly form of powergaming.

If it just so happens there are no fighters around, then yeh that's fair game, shouting about it afterwards isn't if there were no fighters around to defend. It's puffing up your ego and making yourself feel tough because you'd have no chance in hell if a few of the big fighters were around

Yeah and some white girls too, fools. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Thats fair enough one way morik, dont be an idiot and people wont be an idiot to you is what your saying?

It would be nice if it worked like that but well people are people

But the conglut on nil or celestia sounds useful, do you already conglut on earth or water depening on your city?

Not unless you have transcendent Planar.

Thanks, I always wondered that actually

The only off-plane conglutination just for being a member of an organization are: Ethereal Glomdoring for Glomdoring members, Ethereal Serenwilde for Serenwilde members, and the Pool / Megalith on the cosmic / elemental planes (because they are considered to be "parts of the city," where you can summon guards).

Nokraenom,

Cut the drama. I raided yesterday longer than I've ever raided. I fought for 5 hours straight on Celestia/Water and many smaller raids happened after that. Your bs about how we wait until other fighters is amusing. If we only raid when other fighters are gone how did Daevos lose titan and then pray again after that and then die a couple more times on Celestia along with Kaervas, etc? Hmm? You just conviently left this out, right? Or better yet, you'll fire back with an excuse that you didn't realize that? You may also want to ask Airees, Murphy, Torak, etc. how many times they died too.



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Off that, I just wanted to make it clear to you (I was the first person to shout) that for worldburning us, Raezon would lose 15 shrines. 3 have already been defiled, and we have planned mass defiling to get the other 12 soon. Actions have consequences and as I shouted to make terribly clear much to your dismay, Raezon's shrines will suffer for the suffering we endured because of the one near Ashtorath.

Kaervas died 2 times, 3 max btw. Nothing spectacular, I lost a %. Thanks to Vesar I got spared from praying

Same, I lost 1% too. My point was just that the notion that we "never fight until all the fighters are gone" is inaccurate. Nokraenom was trying to smooth over the grim realization that he has brought a mini-war against Raezon shrines with fabricated statements.

Oh and I guess we make need to clarify: I consider Daevos, Kaervas, Murphy, Torak, Airees, Lokinov, etc... fighters for Magnagora. Perhaps he has different people in mind?

Makes sense that the shrines would be defiled for that, happened with the old Fain shrines. And to be fair people from all orgs have probably waited until no one is around at some point, though I personally try to avoid that lately. It's the bitching/gloating over shouts that gets old after a while.