Stop the Hijacks.. discuss the 'viability' of influencing undead villages with the various methods possible.

Crow Cloaks
Rogue Necromancers
Killing the Undead and influencing the non-Undead.

You just don't get it do you? There is no viable option whatsoever for Serenwilde or Celest to influence undead. RP wise, it makes no sense. Mechanically, how do you expect Serenwilde or Celest to aquire mass Crow cloaks (they cost 10p each)? I've heard Glomdoring people complain that they can't get enough of them.

Rogue necromancers? I mean seriously. I suppose if we all start meta-gaming, create a necromancer, quit, and join Serenwilde/Celest maybe but until then, that's absurd.

Killing Undead? HELP SANCTUARY.

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This just screams wrong in every direction. Hence, I suggested that Angkrag rebel with Acknor (and if you want my RP reason, I'm going to say there is some standing issue between the orcs in Acknor and Angkrag that has spurred some hatred, where they just can't stand each other anymore).

Oh, I get it.

However, I also get that in the real world, people defect all the time when they are paid money to do so.

I also get that people often do things against thier 'morals' when they can gain from them.

Also, You can Crusade to counter Sancturay.

Right, but has it ever happened? No. Will it ever happen (selling mass crow cloaks and/or a necromancer going rogue)? Probably not.

Few people want to spend 10 power to sell mass crow cloaks (which I think bear your mark, hrm, I think that person would get kicked out of Glomdoring), and why would serenwilde or celest let a necromancer in? It doesn't make sense, it's against their morals.

I think we're dealing in too many "what if's" and nobody is going to take the above mentioned roles. Going to agree with Narsrim on this one.

Oh also, Considering the HUGE population advantange Serenwilde often has, I think you might even be able to pull it off. Assuming no Titans or Demigods happen to be around.

1. Anyone who goes against their morals for material gain in Serenwilde is likely to get ostracized because of the RP foundation of the organization being anything but motivated by material gain.

2. It would likewise be against the morals of Serenwilde or Celest to hire/use an undead person to influence undead.

3. You need to be beaten with a rubber hose for attempting to imply that a viable option is to crusade every room in Angkrag, for example, with undead in it, kill them, and while having 50 people in these 50 rooms, manage to fight off people who can come in with groups and kill you. Not to mention, if you lose a single room with a high-end undead person, the 5 orcs (which someone could equally kill and more easier since they move unlike the liches and skeletons), would need to be influenced about 20 times each to compare to a named denizen.

As for Crow Cloaks... Multiple Gems of power, plus Energy link in Discipline = Enough power to make as many cloaks as anybody needs.

Oh, then there is siphoning from ships, and Astral Linking possiblities.

Serenwilde may not want to take that route, but I see no reason Celest would not.

Since when are Orcs undead?

If Sanctuary is a way to prevent you from killing all the mobs, then Crusade is a method to prevent Sanctuary.. they are both equally viable options.

How about: Because crow cloaks are sacred and aren't to be made / handed out like candy? That would put a bit of a damper on Celest's plans.

Sure, you can have enough power to create that many cloaks, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that if I wanted to do that (and trust me, I've thought about it), all it would take would be for one Glomdoring person to look at the cloak, or someone to tell one someone else, because, and correct me if I'm wrong, they have the maker's mark.

Plus, can you really see Serenwilde and Celest wearing crow cloaks just to influence the dead?

I think the rubber hose is now needed.

Look, if its 'EASY' to come up with some RP reason for anything for the sake of game balance, then I am sure it is just as easy to come up with a RP reason why people would Buy and Sell Crow Cloaks.

Its really not the admin's job to dictate how we handle they handle the skills they give us. Nor is it right to demand that they change skills because of player made politics 'for the sake of game balance'

The sale of Crow Cloaks to people have been offered and bought many times. Generally its been for personal reasons, or just to have some RP fun, but it has happened, and I'm sure it will continue to happen, and if Celest wanted to take advantage of it, they very well could.

Richter: I have sold cloaks to people with less than a month left on them for about 5K gold before. Just enough time to talk to creatures in Paavik, and not get caught.

I could also just as easily, ask a young Crow user to borrow thier cloak, and then sell it.

@Narsrim: Ok something just hit me... If Serenwilde refuses to deal with Necormancers... then what RP reason could they have to Control the Village based on undead Dwarves and to gain from those efforts?

I think the real issue here is that there is no penalty to being able to influence undead.

If I had my way, Estelbar would reject people who practice Crow/Necromancy because they view such as icky. As a result, Glomdoring and Magnagora could fight over Angkrag whereas Serenwilde and Celest could fight over Estelbar.

At the moment, there is no drawback. Being able to influence undead equates to no penalty with the ability to influence an extra village. I don't think that is very fair.

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And back to Crow Cloaks, let's be honest. WHY IN THE WORLD would Glomdoring SELL an item that gives it a HUGE advantage against its enemies?

Right now, Glomdoring is starving for a village. Would it make any sense whatsoever for them to increase the odds of losing again?

Why don't we all forget the Crow Cloaks idea and come up with something more viable that would help all non-undead parties without infringing on RP?

I would've thought something like this would've been looked at awhile ago though.

Imagine if we all had to buy magic sandals from Celest to influence Delport.... would this even be an issue? Everyone would scream foul.

I think this goes back to the "corrupt members" conversation we just had. Someone who values gold more than their organization would do it. /me shrugs.

Whats the likely hood of Glomdoring being able to take Angkrag from Magnagora? Not very high.

However, if say for one round Serenwilde or Celest got Ankgrag, it could theortiecally be easier for Glomdoring to get it the round when they 'clamp down on cloaks' to make sure it never happens again.

And thats just off the top of my head.


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Your estalbar thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it would ONLY punish Magnagora.

Anyone can gain the ability to influence the undead, however Magangorans do not have the ability to NOT influence the undead, whereas Glomdoring Does.



I think that would be awesome.

I love viable black markets.

Geomancers can't influence the undead... Glomdoring members who don't follow Crow can't influence the undead... um?

Edit: Without getting a cloak, obviously. I'm not sure what your point here is. It's not like there's a penalty for being able to influence undead...

There is curently no penalty, however if you created a penalty, it would be a penalty that would only affect Ur'guard and Nihilists, becaues its possible for a follower of Crow, to not wear a cloak or to not take on crow form.

edit: Also, currently, Serenwilde has many more advantages to influencing than any other place. The affects of the Druid demense, the Spirits, and the High Charsima races. In my mind, this is well balanced by the ability for Magnagora to influence undead. Glomdoring then came around and now has a way to give everyone the ability to influence undead if they are willing to pay the price for it. If there was not such a high price, it would be too much a blow to Nihilists and Ur'guard.

So... you are saying it's balanced if a penalty is created, but as there is no penalty and no plans for a penalty, and nobody has even suggested such a thing before now (this thread isn't even about creating a penalty for speaking to the Undead), it's okay because there MIGHT be one someday? I don't really get this reasoning.

Edit:


Then what was Celest's advantage/disadvantage? Oh, right, they have laetitia, which Magnagora does too. Really, the cities have a number of advantages in influencing as well- Celest has a higher charisma base, but it wasn't balanced with the idea of speaking to the dead as a bonus in turn for other penalties.

Huh? thats not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that there is currently no penalty and that is a good thing, because if there was a penalty, it would be unfairly given.

i.e. If a penalty was given for influencing the undead, than Glomdoring would have too many advantages.

I am saying that it is currently well balanced, requiring only a desire on the part of Celest or Serenwilde to see affective change with the game mechanics working fine.

Long long ago, Serenwilde was the only Commune, which meant Serenwilde had the only alembic.

I do recall many persons including Daganev cry foul when he couldn't buy bromide potions or really anything else.

The same logic of Crow cloaks applies to that situation too. Magnagora could have just bought potions from Serenwilde... but alas, Serenwilde could also restrict access and as such, it was called for what it was: unfair.

This is similar.