Unknown2006-02-27 01:22:34
So that everyone can see what was discussed at the envoy summit, and can rest assured that the admin are doing their best to look into issues of balance, I've kept a very brief summary of the main topics.
====
Meeting start.
- Estarra noted that coding was around 3 weeks behind schedule, so
  delays should be expected in envoy updates. A second summit may
  be arranged after coding tasks had caught up. Two tasks that were
  of priority at the moment are aethercraft specializations and
  a revamp of the shrine system.
- Estarra asked for an overall rating of combat balance out of ten.
  The average appeared to be around 6.5 (max 7, min 5). Aetolia was
  given a 5, while Achaea 8. Imperian was left unknown.
- Estarra asked for the root causes of combat imbalance. Main
  responses were demesnes, buffs, warrior wounding and size.
- Issue:
    Thunderclap.
  Problems:
    Takes 81% of max health at times.
    Multiple demigods can be too powerful.
  Suggestions:
    Remove it.
    Reduce it to a maximum of 50% max health.
    Replace it with a different ability, perhaps stun-based.
    Make it targettable to one person.
    Base damage on a percentage of current health.
  Resolution:
    Will be removed or changed to something else.
- Issue:
    Demesnes.
  Problems:
    Demesne summon and wisp too powerful.
    Size is too large.
    Wisp is not blocked by terrain change.
    Saplings too difficult to remove.
  Issue addressed in component form.
- Roark noted that demesnes would soon be removable in sanctuary.
- Issue:
    Saplings.
  Problems:
    Too difficult to remove.
    Not equivalent to removing terrain in mage demesnes.
    Too dependent on weapon statistics.
    Requires wielding of weapon.
  Counter arguments:
    Chop easier to obtain than realitycheck.
    Druids easily deal with saplings; mages with illusions.
  Suggestions:
    Make all saplings take 1 chop outside natural forest.
  Resolution:
    Currently, saplings should take 2 chops at most 3 outside forest.
    Estarra will investigate saplings further.
- Issue:
    Demesne size/summon.
  Problems:
    Can dominate too wide an area.
    Too easy to make demesnes which are near-impossible to break.
    Holding a demesne is key to victory in most conflict.
    Demesne holding is boring and monotous.
    Summon is too powerful, and makes entering enemy demesnes a death
      trap.
    Possible to hold an entire area or village.
  Counter arguments:
    Reducing demesne size could make breaking much more volatile.
    Removing summon and reducing size could cripple demesne usefulness.
  Suggestions:
    Reduce maximum demesne size to 20/25/50 rooms.
    Reduce maximum size and increase speed of effects.
    Reduce maximum size to 5 rooms and make breaking harder.
    Reduce range of effects from location of spellcaster.
    Add more active abilities for mages/druids in place of passive.
    Make passive demesne effects 1/4 of the skillset or less.
    Make all demesne effects active spells.
    Make melding each room take longer the larger the existing demesne.
    Remove summon & wisp.
    If size is reduced, allow larger demesnes in home territory.
  Resolution:
    Leaning towards reducing size to 25 rooms, and removing summons.
- Issue:
    Warrior combat & wounding.
  Problems:
    Champion helms provide too much wounding bonus.
    Lunge equivalents are too devastating with wounding.
    Wounds and damage can be stacked too powerfully together.
    Beheading through shield is too powerful.
    Damage is obsolete due to health buffs available, particularly
      to warriors.
    Weapon caps are too severe.
    Pre-cap weapons are still widely used and available.
    One-handers do not deal enough wounds.
    Delayed cure afflictions can be a problem.
    Strength affects wounding too heavily.
    Behead/Bashbrain are too easy to obtain at critical.
  Counter-arguments:
    Champion helms are designed for 5% bonus to wounding, not 30%.
    Warriors have completely different perspective on wounding and
      damage because of their different resilience to mages/druids.
    Warriors are easily hindered.
    Warriors are supposed to have the advantage in 1v1 combat.
  Suggestions:
    Reduce the effect of surge.
    Make lunge equivalents never miss.
    Make lunge equivalents blocked by shield or prismatic barrier.
    Make wounds solely dependent on DEX, damage on STR, and precision
    and skill determine chance of afflicting.
    Make behead/bashbrain impossible through shield and parry.
  Resolutions:
    Weapon caps and knighthood skills will be adjusted.
    All weapons in future will fall under the same rules.
    Damage/wounding - no final resolution.
- Issue:
    Buffs available.
  Problems:
    Karma provides too many benefits, easily obtainable.
    Quests, herofetes, favours and blessings give too many benefits
      when combined.
  Suggestions:
    Make no bonus stack with another, solely gaining the benefit of
      the largest.
    Make no non-skill bonus stack with another.
    Remove karma blessings and drop toscha bonus to 5%.
    Make every additional bonus produce less effective results.
  Resolution:
    The suggestion of diminishing return for multiple bonuses will
      be investigated. Stat modifiers will not change.
- Issue:
    Size.
  Problems:
    No benefit to being of large size.
    Discrepancy in writhe/tumble speed between large and small is
      too great.
  Counter-arguments:
    Roll speed was recently capped.
  Suggestions:
    Reduce size effect on writhe and tumble.
    Place a cap on size affecting writhe effect and hindrance.
  Resolutions:
    Same as suggestions above.
- Issue:
    Debate
  Problems:
    Defenders heavily advantaged against aggressors.
    Balance of offensive losses to defensive losses is nonexistant.
  Suggestions:
    Intelligence factor into offensive losses - rejected.
  Resolution:
    Bug in offensive loss damage fixed.
- Issue:
    Divert.
  Problems:
    Diverting a denizen too much appears to raise resistance too high.
    Many diverts causes influence battles which are far too long.
  Counter-arguments:
    Makes sense in the denizen saying 'screw you all, I've had enough.'
  Revelations:
    Diverting does not affect willfulness.
    The more one organization influences a mobile, the more willful they
      are against -that- organization only.
  Suggestions:
    Give divert a high ego cost, and stop it resetting the mobile.
    Make diverting impossible if you are in a debate.
    Make divert not restore a denizens ego.
    Make denizens track ego separate for each nation.
    Make divert have a chance of the mobile caving in to influencer.
    Make max denizen resistence less.
    Make divert reset willfulness to a certain level.
    Let influencing for one org make the denizen more resistant to
      others.
    Make divert heal a certain amount of ego, not restore it.
    Make divert cost 100% of your ego.
  Resolution:
    Divert will cost around 50% of ego when performed.
- Issue:
    Enfeeble.
  Problems:
    No cure.
  Suggestions:
    Add a cure.
  Resolution:
    None.
- Issue:
    Transmigration.
  Problems:
    Currently is too powerful.
    Does not have a chance of causing experience loss.
    Cannot be countered in some way by attackers.
  Suggestions:
    New affliction which corrupts bond with animal spirits. (in report)
    40% karma cost on transmigrating.
    Chance to fail in enemy territory.
    Only transmigrate in forest environment.
  Resolution:
    Add a chance to fail in enemy territory.
- Issue not addressed:
    Autodeclare in enemy territory.
  Problem:
    If an enemy is in your territory and you attack them, you are
    automatically declared. Declare trumps defend, which allows
    circumvention of PK careful and defend in general.
- Issue:
    Karma
  Problems:
    Too easy to gain and maintain blessings.
    Certain quests provide too much karma.
  Suggestions:
    Killing another character has a chance of losing a blessing, if
      you would normally lose karma for it.
    Add a karma drain for killing loyals and guards.
    Make karma more difficult to gain.
    Reduce offering karma, reduce certain quest karma.
  Resolution:
    None.
- Issue not addressed:
    Anti-organization quests.
  Problem:
    Too many anti-city quests, not enough anti-commune quests.
    Possibly anti-city quests which are too difficult to maintain.
Meeting close.
====
CODE
====
Meeting start.
- Estarra noted that coding was around 3 weeks behind schedule, so
  delays should be expected in envoy updates. A second summit may
  be arranged after coding tasks had caught up. Two tasks that were
  of priority at the moment are aethercraft specializations and
  a revamp of the shrine system.
- Estarra asked for an overall rating of combat balance out of ten.
  The average appeared to be around 6.5 (max 7, min 5). Aetolia was
  given a 5, while Achaea 8. Imperian was left unknown.
- Estarra asked for the root causes of combat imbalance. Main
  responses were demesnes, buffs, warrior wounding and size.
- Issue:
    Thunderclap.
  Problems:
    Takes 81% of max health at times.
    Multiple demigods can be too powerful.
  Suggestions:
    Remove it.
    Reduce it to a maximum of 50% max health.
    Replace it with a different ability, perhaps stun-based.
    Make it targettable to one person.
    Base damage on a percentage of current health.
  Resolution:
    Will be removed or changed to something else.
- Issue:
    Demesnes.
  Problems:
    Demesne summon and wisp too powerful.
    Size is too large.
    Wisp is not blocked by terrain change.
    Saplings too difficult to remove.
  Issue addressed in component form.
- Roark noted that demesnes would soon be removable in sanctuary.
- Issue:
    Saplings.
  Problems:
    Too difficult to remove.
    Not equivalent to removing terrain in mage demesnes.
    Too dependent on weapon statistics.
    Requires wielding of weapon.
  Counter arguments:
    Chop easier to obtain than realitycheck.
    Druids easily deal with saplings; mages with illusions.
  Suggestions:
    Make all saplings take 1 chop outside natural forest.
  Resolution:
    Currently, saplings should take 2 chops at most 3 outside forest.
    Estarra will investigate saplings further.
- Issue:
    Demesne size/summon.
  Problems:
    Can dominate too wide an area.
    Too easy to make demesnes which are near-impossible to break.
    Holding a demesne is key to victory in most conflict.
    Demesne holding is boring and monotous.
    Summon is too powerful, and makes entering enemy demesnes a death
      trap.
    Possible to hold an entire area or village.
  Counter arguments:
    Reducing demesne size could make breaking much more volatile.
    Removing summon and reducing size could cripple demesne usefulness.
  Suggestions:
    Reduce maximum demesne size to 20/25/50 rooms.
    Reduce maximum size and increase speed of effects.
    Reduce maximum size to 5 rooms and make breaking harder.
    Reduce range of effects from location of spellcaster.
    Add more active abilities for mages/druids in place of passive.
    Make passive demesne effects 1/4 of the skillset or less.
    Make all demesne effects active spells.
    Make melding each room take longer the larger the existing demesne.
    Remove summon & wisp.
    If size is reduced, allow larger demesnes in home territory.
  Resolution:
    Leaning towards reducing size to 25 rooms, and removing summons.
- Issue:
    Warrior combat & wounding.
  Problems:
    Champion helms provide too much wounding bonus.
    Lunge equivalents are too devastating with wounding.
    Wounds and damage can be stacked too powerfully together.
    Beheading through shield is too powerful.
    Damage is obsolete due to health buffs available, particularly
      to warriors.
    Weapon caps are too severe.
    Pre-cap weapons are still widely used and available.
    One-handers do not deal enough wounds.
    Delayed cure afflictions can be a problem.
    Strength affects wounding too heavily.
    Behead/Bashbrain are too easy to obtain at critical.
  Counter-arguments:
    Champion helms are designed for 5% bonus to wounding, not 30%.
    Warriors have completely different perspective on wounding and
      damage because of their different resilience to mages/druids.
    Warriors are easily hindered.
    Warriors are supposed to have the advantage in 1v1 combat.
  Suggestions:
    Reduce the effect of surge.
    Make lunge equivalents never miss.
    Make lunge equivalents blocked by shield or prismatic barrier.
    Make wounds solely dependent on DEX, damage on STR, and precision
    and skill determine chance of afflicting.
    Make behead/bashbrain impossible through shield and parry.
  Resolutions:
    Weapon caps and knighthood skills will be adjusted.
    All weapons in future will fall under the same rules.
    Damage/wounding - no final resolution.
- Issue:
    Buffs available.
  Problems:
    Karma provides too many benefits, easily obtainable.
    Quests, herofetes, favours and blessings give too many benefits
      when combined.
  Suggestions:
    Make no bonus stack with another, solely gaining the benefit of
      the largest.
    Make no non-skill bonus stack with another.
    Remove karma blessings and drop toscha bonus to 5%.
    Make every additional bonus produce less effective results.
  Resolution:
    The suggestion of diminishing return for multiple bonuses will
      be investigated. Stat modifiers will not change.
- Issue:
    Size.
  Problems:
    No benefit to being of large size.
    Discrepancy in writhe/tumble speed between large and small is
      too great.
  Counter-arguments:
    Roll speed was recently capped.
  Suggestions:
    Reduce size effect on writhe and tumble.
    Place a cap on size affecting writhe effect and hindrance.
  Resolutions:
    Same as suggestions above.
- Issue:
    Debate
  Problems:
    Defenders heavily advantaged against aggressors.
    Balance of offensive losses to defensive losses is nonexistant.
  Suggestions:
    Intelligence factor into offensive losses - rejected.
  Resolution:
    Bug in offensive loss damage fixed.
- Issue:
    Divert.
  Problems:
    Diverting a denizen too much appears to raise resistance too high.
    Many diverts causes influence battles which are far too long.
  Counter-arguments:
    Makes sense in the denizen saying 'screw you all, I've had enough.'
  Revelations:
    Diverting does not affect willfulness.
    The more one organization influences a mobile, the more willful they
      are against -that- organization only.
  Suggestions:
    Give divert a high ego cost, and stop it resetting the mobile.
    Make diverting impossible if you are in a debate.
    Make divert not restore a denizens ego.
    Make denizens track ego separate for each nation.
    Make divert have a chance of the mobile caving in to influencer.
    Make max denizen resistence less.
    Make divert reset willfulness to a certain level.
    Let influencing for one org make the denizen more resistant to
      others.
    Make divert heal a certain amount of ego, not restore it.
    Make divert cost 100% of your ego.
  Resolution:
    Divert will cost around 50% of ego when performed.
- Issue:
    Enfeeble.
  Problems:
    No cure.
  Suggestions:
    Add a cure.
  Resolution:
    None.
- Issue:
    Transmigration.
  Problems:
    Currently is too powerful.
    Does not have a chance of causing experience loss.
    Cannot be countered in some way by attackers.
  Suggestions:
    New affliction which corrupts bond with animal spirits. (in report)
    40% karma cost on transmigrating.
    Chance to fail in enemy territory.
    Only transmigrate in forest environment.
  Resolution:
    Add a chance to fail in enemy territory.
- Issue not addressed:
    Autodeclare in enemy territory.
  Problem:
    If an enemy is in your territory and you attack them, you are
    automatically declared. Declare trumps defend, which allows
    circumvention of PK careful and defend in general.
- Issue:
    Karma
  Problems:
    Too easy to gain and maintain blessings.
    Certain quests provide too much karma.
  Suggestions:
    Killing another character has a chance of losing a blessing, if
      you would normally lose karma for it.
    Add a karma drain for killing loyals and guards.
    Make karma more difficult to gain.
    Reduce offering karma, reduce certain quest karma.
  Resolution:
    None.
- Issue not addressed:
    Anti-organization quests.
  Problem:
    Too many anti-city quests, not enough anti-commune quests.
    Possibly anti-city quests which are too difficult to maintain.
Meeting close.
====
Verithrax2006-02-27 01:45:45
Not much to see here... Good thing the obvious stuff is getting taken care of, but I dunno. I don't know much about combat, I don't fight, so not that much of an opinion. More active skills for mages/druids would be nice, though.
Unknown2006-02-27 01:47:19
The specifics of each class' skills will be addressed in the submitted envoy reports. This was more about focusing on the larger problems with combat in general.
Unknown2006-02-27 01:56:19
I don't see how wisp was -still- deamed to powerful... the only times I've been able to actually wisp people since the time delay has been when they are:
1.afk
2.In that milisecond between when they step into a room and when they change the terain, which seems to now be changed.
1.afk
2.In that milisecond between when they step into a room and when they change the terain, which seems to now be changed.
Shorlen2006-02-27 02:38:56
QUOTE(Wesmin @ Feb 26 2006, 08:56 PM) 262825
I don't see how wisp was -still- deamed to powerful... the only times I've been able to actually wisp people since the time delay has been when they are:
1.afk
2.In that milisecond between when they step into a room and when they change the terain, which seems to now be changed.
Dunno about you, but I would infinately perfer a skill that does just about anything other than summon. I'm sick of having such an overpowered ability that lets me defend territory with no player skill. It used to be just instant death for raiders. Now it's instant death for raiders if you get lucky. Both are dumb.
QUOTE
Issue:
Divert.
Problems:
Diverting a denizen too much appears to raise resistance too high.
Many diverts causes influence battles which are far too long.
Counter-arguments:
Makes sense in the denizen saying 'screw you all, I've had enough.'
Revelations:
Diverting does not affect willfulness.
The more one organization influences a mobile, the more willful they
are against -that- organization only.
Yeah, we figured that out a while ago. It's why Serenwilders stopped attacking in the huge divert messes - just debated and diverted. When the Celestian or Magnagoran left, then we influenced.
Unknown2006-02-27 06:25:27
By the way, are there any root causes that we missed in a discussion of overall balance? Not individual skills you don't like, obviously, but in terms of global mechanics or archetype balance?
Orcae2006-02-27 06:39:25
QUOTE(Avaer @ Feb 27 2006, 02:25 PM) 262857
By the way, are there any root causes that we missed in a discussion of overall balance? Not individual skills you don't like, obviously, but in terms of global mechanics or archetype balance?
I noticed that champion helm was discussed, but I think other champion artifacts are imbalanced as well. If, say the helm's 30% bonus provide too much of an advantage, you can say the same thing about the other artifacts, like passive Aeon, Blackout etc. Even if champion artifacts are supposed to give a big advantage by design, some are way better than others.
Oh and also racial imbalance. I think level 3 bonus to eq and balance are too much (even though I am a mugwump myself).
Asarnil2006-02-27 07:03:32
To be honest, the sapling needs to be changed to 1 maybe 2 hits, not 2 maybe 3. That by itself would remove a lot of problems even with wisp at the moment.
Saran2006-02-27 07:07:07
I'm slightly annoyed that they are discussing removing wisp with the demense-based reasons...
Unless I'm confused and summon is a Guardian ability...
EDIT: Oh and a note i don't really use wisp, it's mainly when I'm trying to find someone in an arena but summon is more efficient
Unless I'm confused and summon is a Guardian ability...
EDIT: Oh and a note i don't really use wisp, it's mainly when I'm trying to find someone in an arena but summon is more efficient
Ashteru2006-02-27 08:31:13
25 rooms? ...Can't make artistic demesnes out of 25 rooms...
Laysus2006-02-27 08:54:14
Wisp isn't overpowered :/
Anyone who knows what they're doing shouldn't be wisped unless they wanted to under it's current form.
And the suggested change to transmig doesn't sound like much :/
Anyone who knows what they're doing shouldn't be wisped unless they wanted to under it's current form.
And the suggested change to transmig doesn't sound like much :/
ferlas2006-02-27 09:43:52
QUOTE(Laysus @ Feb 27 2006, 08:54 AM) 262877
Wisp isn't overpowered :/
Anyone who knows what they're doing shouldn't be wisped unless they wanted to under it's current form.
And the suggested change to transmig doesn't sound like much :/
Currently it can summon even if they walk in and perfectly break the demensce chopping a saping and breaking in one go, which dosnt happen as sappings usally take more than one hit. Wisp will be completly fine when they fix the sappings and when they make it so wisp dosnt summon once the terain has been changed.
kinosh2006-02-27 10:40:15
If a demesne is 5, 10, maybe 15 rooms, then summon shouldn't really matter. I think there needs to be less passive affects though, I walk in, and die in four rooms worth of walking with every defense I have.
Was there anything else we wanted them to talk about? I think they covered just about everything.
Was there anything else we wanted them to talk about? I think they covered just about everything.
Ashteru2006-02-27 10:45:47
QUOTE(kinosh @ Feb 27 2006, 11:40 AM) 262885
If a demesne is 5, 10, maybe 15 rooms, then summon shouldn't really matter. I think there needs to be less passive affects though, I walk in, and die in four rooms worth of walking with every defense I have.
Was there anything else we wanted them to talk about? I think they covered just about everything.
But I guess that's more your, your curings and maybe your low levels fault...only demesne that can hurt is Geodemesne, and I can still outsip it if the Geo doesn't attack. If not, just protection scrolls and shielding much.
Ixion2006-02-27 10:46:25
Couple comments on Elryn's post.
Most sounds pretty fair, more or less.
Damage is obsolete due to health buffs available, particularly
to warriors.
Dang straight. On that same note, if the buffs problem is resolved, surge will not really need to be touched. However, I think it would be a good idea to have a choice of 33% or 50% surged.
Tclap isn't simply 81%, it is a percent plus a base damage, like many skills.
Multiple demigods can be too powerful.
They should be.
Most sounds pretty fair, more or less.
Damage is obsolete due to health buffs available, particularly
to warriors.
Dang straight. On that same note, if the buffs problem is resolved, surge will not really need to be touched. However, I think it would be a good idea to have a choice of 33% or 50% surged.
Tclap isn't simply 81%, it is a percent plus a base damage, like many skills.
Multiple demigods can be too powerful.
They should be.
Shamarah2006-02-27 11:13:55
QUOTE(Ixion @ Feb 27 2006, 05:46 AM) 262887
Multiple demigods can be too powerful.
They should be.
Not so powerful that they can wipe out an entire group in seconds.
Ashteru2006-02-27 11:22:53
QUOTE(Shamarah @ Feb 27 2006, 12:13 PM) 262893
Not so powerful that they can wipe out an entire group in seconds.
Well, depends on the group...and I do think that three Demigods should be able to kill around six people at about 80 easily..
Murphy2006-02-27 11:51:52
Ashteru don't talk about level, because 3 demigods should never be able to kill even 3 murphies (i'm lvl 78)
I don't care that they bashed to that level, they shoulodn't have a room wide attack like that, I spent just as much time in game honing my combat skills, but i can't do that sort of damage to room wide enemies.
I don't care that they bashed to that level, they shoulodn't have a room wide attack like that, I spent just as much time in game honing my combat skills, but i can't do that sort of damage to room wide enemies.
Ashteru2006-02-27 11:57:55
Three murphies...
I more meant average combatant....not guys who do insane damage and wounding.
I more meant average combatant....not guys who do insane damage and wounding.
Eyod2006-02-27 12:05:16
All I want is an assess-like skill in healing, when you risk death everytime you heal someone it might be good if we could actually see what the risk is.
