I keep hearing more and more rumblings about the need for a "neutral" community, some place where there's no inherent role-play bias to go to war with someplace else for no reason other than that said places exists.

Personally, I'm convinced the absence of such a place in Lusternia is the prime factor holding the population down. Yes, conflict itself is the essence of storytelling, but conflict alone does not a world make.

When you watch a movie or read a book, you don't spend months on end immersed in it. Nor do you follow the main character for hours at a time, going through his daily grind and every moment of his personal relationships. You hit the hilights, you go for a thrill ride, then you get off the rollercoaster, story done.

MUDs are not like that. Lusternia is not like that. The rules are different. Conflict here is non-stop, and non-stop conflict means emotional burnout. A few of us die-hards have found ways to adapt, and a few adrenalin junkies without families to take care of may be able to roll with the stress, but the average player seems to just give up at some point.

I say, to pick up momentum again, the game needs a community where no one in power can say, "We're going to war because that's our RP!" or "We fight to defend 'X' because Divine 'Y' says we must!" without getting laughed out of office.

What do you say?

Sieg Heil, Mein Richter!

Exarius, stop saying things I agree with! We have a history to keep up!

I voted "yes", but not for Deepnight or anything specific. I think it would need to be something more firmly embedded in the fabric of the game world than Deepnight. No offense, Richter! Not saying anything against what you've done. But if Deepnight became its own political force, with its own guilds and skills, it would indeed fall into the trap discussed on that other thread -- eventually it would take sides. "But Richter said!" would not have the force necessary to stop that, the same way "but we have a hundred years of tradition dating back to some almost mythical figure, and dozens of events in our history supporting our choice" would. Making that work would require it to have everything going for it.

As for the city or commune question, the answer is no. Ideally, it should be neither, because either would force it to seem to take a side on the civilization-vs.-nature question.

I don't think it's really feasible to do this in Lusternia. It would have to have been built in from the beginning. Ackleberry could be forced to fit (though this would infuriate all the people who have decided what Ackleberry must be so they can join it... though, let's face it, 99% of those people are going to be disappointed and infuriated anyway, since their visions are all disagreeing with one another).

Probably the best way to do it would be to have it be in an aetherbubble. One of the Elder Gods got sick of the war and just wanted to do crafts and have a family, so she went to an aetherbubble, didn't leave a forwarding address, and brought along a bunch of people. The bubble has been informed (via prophecy, maybe) that they're going to be discovered again soon, and that they must remain entirely neutral. Strict rules are in place already that their crafters always sell entirely equally to everyone. Laissez-faire capitalism in a free market is a defining virtue, almost a religious tenet, for them. Then they are discovered... and willing to welcome newcomers who completely, completely, subscribe to their tenets of neutrality.

It's a little forced, and wouldn't work as well as if it had been built into the original description, but it could work.

I like the aetherbubble Idea. we can all it Australia

Naturally, the aetherbubble's guilds would include a lot of really strong defense skills that could repel invaders, cure themselves and each other, etc. but which could not be used to help anyone else, or harm anyone that wasn't invading. They would also have all trades available to them, though perhaps at a higher price in terms of ingredients: this would help eliminate the whole "waaaaaah, but we don't have alchemy!" thing. If you want that potion or enchantment, you can get it from the neutral party, if you're willing to pay.

What can I say? I hold no tradition sacred.

But that would make it an ex-penal colony.

..isn't that a pretty close description of Deepnight though?

Richter's cartels have always been open to sell to everyone, and his old Black Market used to be a method for people to sell to enemy organizations. I know that Ibaesha, for example, would throttle any Moondancers she caught selling to the Taint back in the day, but she had no problem with them going through Richter, despite the fact that their goods could end up in the hands of Magnagora.

Plus, I think making Deepnight an offical org would just be beyond cool, and would be something that would just seem amazing. The fact is, Illyrias is going to allow for orgs to be created by players..and allow the players to create a new skillset for their org.. that sort of customization is going to draw a lot of people.. and it would be nice to see Lusternia try and grab those reigns while it has the chance, while managing, I think, to draw some players in based on the sheer idea that they could have that sort of grand impact on the world.

As for the RP of it.. we know the Gnomes are incredibly advanced, and that they trade through Trader Bob.. we also know that Richter has had it out for Bob since as long as I can remember

Wouldn't it make sense that maybe Richter could steal the Gnome's contract from Bob, and establish Deepnight as their trading post for this "bubble of reality"? And of course, the gnomes are 100% neutral, and they'd obviously enforce that same level of neutrality on anyone who wanted to work for them.

This would also seperate it from being a city or commune.. you'd be a part of the trade syndicate.

Won't work.

If we ever officialy get such a neutral organisation, griefers WILL find a way (trust me) to declare war on it one way or another, or will attack it even without war. Because they will assume, quite correctly, that neutral = mostly non-combatants = easy prey.

What are you going to attack? The gnome shops selling you artifacts? Yeah.. I can totally see the griefers cutting off their ability to buy artifacts.. wait.. no.. I can't.

I agree. Exarius, shut up and stop saying things I can agree with, I have a flamewar to keep up.

I voted for Deepnight. I think it would be able to find an initial playerbase faster (As well as an initial leadership) than an organization that was just created. It can be made into a proper aetherbubble with a connection to the Aetherways and an exit to Prime through a planar gate (Interesting event idea: Deepnight, being the slow hulk it is, has to successfully survive navigating its way to a section of Aetherspace that a god promised for it).

And I think the term 'neutral org' is misleading... I think 'organization with no inherent bias against anyone else' is better.

I hear currently the rumor that Illyrias isn't going to be allowing for anything at least not anytime soon as they lost their licence and odds are against them for getting it back.

Well then.. nevermind

I really wanted to vote for cheese, but felt you weren't specific enough. Is it boring old sliced cheese? Or something snazzier, like fondue.

I could vote for fondue anytime.





OK you three, into the corner and you can't come out until you decide what names to call each other.

No fair getting along. What will the rest of us do for entertainment?

Of course, we all understand Deepnight would have to become a democratic org if it happened - No, Richter, you can't be our Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life.

Yes. What would they attack in a community specifically designed not to be part of the usual conflicts?

And as long as people could be karma cursed for killing citizens within the community walls, you'd be pretty much guaranteed a good zap for your efforts every time. These wouldn't be people who squander karma on buffs, they'd be people who wear their karma like a porcupine wears his quills.



Three words: hamster chariot racing.

Heh, whoa, whoa, what's this thread now? I didn't put anyone up to it, I promise.

To get things straight, here's what I hope for:

-If I'm somehow ever allowed by the grace of you know who to have a real organization, it won't be neutral. It just won't inherantly hate anyone else for any preconcieved reason. We will develop our own hatreds and alliances thankyouverymuch!

-Deepnight to be an aetherbubble of sorts. I put the ship out in aetherspace, maybe it floats around like the Aetolian Magi guildhall, and I somehow get transport ships out to it like the ship to spectre isle for ease of movement (a lot of newbies go there right now). PAY GNOME 100 GOLD or something, and ZIP!, you're off to Deepnight. Also, ships should be able to teleport to it, since it is an aethership after all, technically.

-The basics. If, again, for some reason, I was ever allowed this, we'd start with you know, a bank, and org status. Some basic things. Screw guilds for now, and we already have all the cartels, etc. Basics.

-Player-directed gameplay. I've played other MUDs where gods shoot down ideas because it doesn't flow with their grand plan. Estarra and co have been good with this (you guys remember, oh, Glomdoring being released, right?)

What I don't want:

-People to ever forget the purpose of the project. Deepnight is a cool place, where people go to be in peace, and give the finger to the Basin's politics. It's an inherantly rogue-ish, merchant-ish, Roark-following-ish kind of place, and we're pretty awesome. We want to keep it that way.

-To overburden/piss off the admins. Last I heard directly from Estarra (in regards to some artifacts I tried to customize the heck out of), they're swamped.



I dunno, these are all ideas anyway. To tell you the truth, I'm surprised at the response. During all this time, I was pretty much the only one building, donating (with exceptions!), etc etc etc. All I can say is I'm glad you guys like it.

In closing, if you really want to support it, the Revolution is going to start accepting people, but only the hardcore "we need a fifth wheel and we're going to put time and resources into it" kind of people. The clan is seperate from the normal Deepnight clan.

Toodles.

Edit: Holy crap, you people are actually voting for option 3? Don't know what to say to that!

I guess they'd attack NPCs. If it's a real community, it ought to have NPCs, at least some nexus-placed teacher. Griefers would come in and kill them, then kill those citizens who try to fight back.

Need an example? Here's one - early Glomdoring. I know it wasn't actually neutral, but let's face it - people who raided it didn't do so because it was "evil" for their org, they did so because they like causing IC misery.

I appreciate the sentiment, but having lived so long in Glomdoring, I think it's a misplaced one.

We have peace. We have cultural dominance. We also have a population smaller than the Vatican. People just aren't interested in that sort of thing.

Now, before you say "I don't like Glomdoring for "X reason, I'll go through a few little known bits of trivia.

Glomdoring's population and activity was highest when it got the crap kicked out of it routinely.

Breaking military ties with Magnagora caused a minor decline in activity.

Peace created a very short term activity boost before taking a steep nosedive. The remaining people became, for a fairly long time, more active. The rest left on account of boredom.

Isolation had no impact on activity when implemented. I find it too difficult to measure the long-term impact because of competing factors.

Threat of war with Magnagora created a short-term spike in activity.

Reopening trade after said threat had no impact on activity.

The Celest-Serenwilde war caused a major decline in activity. People flocked to the source of the action.

Allowing Celestians free passage caused a minor decline in activity, although that might be a remnant of the previous point.

Activity increased when Shayle and Xenthos took office. Yes, they may have changed a little (one more than the other), but their overall contributions are positive.

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So, given the above, what're you going to do with a peaceful, neutral organization? Do you think every rogue in the game will materialize in Deepnight and be content? Do you think every pacifist in the game will completely remove themselves from conflict? Amen, amen I say to you, the people who lose their lives in conflict will gain it, and those who hide from conflict to save themselves will surely die!

As much as a "neutral" organization sounds good.....I doubt that it would ever come to reality. Like Richter said, organizations tend to develop their own alliances and opinions over time. Even if an organization is dubbed 'neutral', I'm sure that it would eventually develop a bias of some kind.