From a very screwed up news item I got through Bruce Schneier's weblog.

Apparently, the greater Manchester police want people to help them find terrorists by reporting suspicious activities, such as:


Seriously, what the hell? Did those people learn nothing from the Spanish Inquisition?

Manchester isn't in Spain.

...no, but the Spanish Inquisition also relied on people ratting on other people for "suspicious behaviour"... and ultimately, it just ended up in vast amounts of false positives (Which the Inquisition was more than happy to prosecute anyway).

Stalin would be most pleased.

I tempted to get into the usual Spanish-Inquisition-has-a-bad-press-through-protestant-propaganda-and-actually-wasn't-that-bad-at-all-argument. But it would be an unnecessary digression.. especially as I agree with you. That particular Police Poster is moderately horrifying. Having said that, I'm far far more worried about the introduction of UK ID cards than I am about the poster campaigns of the Greater Manchester constabulary.

I've had an ID card since I was 14 and to this day, 0 problems. I dont' have to show a driving license I don't have or a passport that i don't have either, instead I just show an official looking card (with no electronics attached) and everybody has to believe I am who I claim I am (with the picture on it). They're not half so bad as they make them look. At least nobody can detain me claiming I am a terrorist and they don't believe the university card I am showing them actually identifies me. Given the current political environment, it's good to know I have some rights just by carrying a little ID card with a picture that is issued by my government and is only worth to identify me, not related to my SS number or the countries I've visited and doesn't have any otehr use than identifying me so if it's stolen is not big deal. Preferable to carrying a passport that somebody could steal use to go travelling illegaly to a different country or some other weird stuff like that leaving tracks all around as if I had been to that other country.

That's nice, Iridiel. Now I know how it works in Spain.

However, it has nothing whatsoever to do with how it's likely to work in the UK.

United States has had IDs for a while to. They arn't really the problematic. Besides, I don't see how the British can become more tracked, or monitered anyways, you guys already are the most watched people in the world. You know those cameras I am talking about :-p

Yess.. apparently I'm video-ed 100+ times a day on my way in and out of Central London. Which is deeply icky. But at least those cameras aren't all joined up.

My parents have always had IDs anyway, since we used to live on an RAF base, so I'm not so sure what all the fuss is about either, but I might just have not been paying enough attention as per usual.

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/whyNot.php


What really gets me is how unnecessary it is.

- The Security Services have repeatedly said that they don't need them. The people who are really pushing for the ID cards are the police.. who, frankly, I don't trust an inch.

- It's going to cost a sodding fortune. Not just the country, but each of us individually.

It won't catch criminals. It won't catch terrorists. It just erodes our personal privacy. It's bad enough that Ken Livingstone's computers know exactly where in London I am because I had to register my bloody oyster card.

I'm not quite sure what would having ID cards do to you, Aiakon? Perhaps you can clarify this to someone who has never heard of not having an ID card.

What will it do to me, personally? It will just be another thing that I lose along with my keys and wallet... and once ID cards become compulsory to carry, that will be a major problem for me. But in fact, putting the cost and the high chance of governmental cock-up to one side, what worries me isn't the card.. it's what it opens the door to.

We're relatively free in the UK right now, and it is a freedom I value. If a Policeman stops me in the street and asks me what I'm doing, I can perfectly reasonably say: none of your business, Officer. It doesn't take (or need) much imagination to see how that may change.. Not only will the card erode civil liberties, but it isn't necessary, and therefore it should be fought. Otherwise, freedom slips away, decade by decade until you arrive at something hellishly Orwellian.

Big Brother is watching!

Just be on the lookout for TVs that can't be turned off. Especially if they are hidden behind paintings.

Um, the US does not have ID cards. Atleast not the ones Aikon is talking about.

There is a big debate in the US about having National ID cards, and just about every good gun carrying hick in Texas and Arizona, are firmly against them.

Iridiel, whats the point of the ID card you have in Spain? They sound like they can be easily forged.

Ya. Don't know what yours are, but ours will be compulsory and expensive, with significant fines for non-compliance.

In the US, most people use thier driver's license as a form of identification. You could, if you wanted, also use your Social Security card, your Passport, and or a combination of other things. However, if you want, you can also go to the DMV and get an ID card, which does not require you pass your diver's test. It also looks almost exactly like a driver's license, and some gave it to me instead of his DL, thus screwing me in insurance in a traffic accident *mutter*.

IDs are also issued by local agencies, unless you have a military ID.

We have ID cards over here.

I've been asked to show mine to a policeman about once every ten years on average.

I had to show it at the movies once, when I was 14.

The most common use I have for it is when I write a check. People ask for some ID to see if the picture matches me and the name matches the one on the check.

They basically exist to serve the same purpose that driving licences do in the US - Basic confirmation that you're you, and you're as old as you say you are. They include a picture, names, parentage, number in a central registry (Which AFAIK only includes the information on the card itself) and simple biometric data. More or less like everything else any goverment does, it's half-assed - Somewhere in between an innocent piece of paper and a tool for a future police state.

Going by the posts in this thread, I now understand why people find Singapore to lack liberty, I suppose. It seems that we favour different things.

Anyway, in Singapore, the IDs are compulsory, compulsory to carry around, and you get fined $100 if you lose it for the first time, more for subsequent losses, but it doesn't cost a thing to make for your first one. Apparently, the reason for the fines were that people didn't treat the ID as an important document. Not everyone in Singapore has a driving license.

And Aiakon, I for one, don't see losing the ability to talk back to a police officer as losing liberty. Although I do agree with your points about the IDs being unnecessary and costly to replace.