Just so not to derail the other thread.

I believe the basic premise for not supporting rogues, is that ideally, the organizations are dynamic and the playerbase are the ones who define how the org actually works. So if enough people don't like the way certain places are, they should be able to bond together and join a place in such a way that they make it good in their eyes.

I think that is the theory anyways. I woudln't know the practicality because I've never been part of an org in IRE I didn't like to such a degree that I couldn't make it the type of place I like, and still play the game.

edit: Conversly, you have people stay in the game who don't like any of the orgs, just some of the people, and the majority of the people end up being rogues, and the big immersive communities that the world revolves around, become bland and unimersive.

So Richter and Deepnight are killing Lusternia?

Hear that Richter? You're the herald of the apocalypse.

I think you sort of missed the point.

Either way, there will always be rogues to some degree. And I think what Richter does/has accomplished with the Aethermanse system to be really neat and adds to the flavor of Lusternia more then anything.


And as for changing the way the orgs are, it's really not as easy for some people as it is others. For examples sake, those with a certain amount of longevity seem to have an inevitable advantage in doing so. Suffering with orgs you dislike for umpteen years just to change them isn't really fair. And most people in the orgs seem somewhat resistant to change, especially from fresh new faces.

Why? Deepnight is turning into the big puddle of rogues who Daganev described. It's not even a real city, no nexus or anything! It's killing Lusternia, wipe Richter, now!

Edit: please note, this is referring to Daganev's edit.

Deepnight is an organization. Its rare to hear of a rogue person who is not in some sort of "rogue organization."

Its not like in Imperian or Achaea where you have all these people who have their own little families and friends who aren't a part of anything, where the admin has to suddenly force people into conflict (i.e imperian) or where they get end up getting rid of guilds all together (i.e. Achaea)

And I beleive you missed the point.

I'll start by saying that I think Lusternia is much better than other IRE games when it comes to rogues. In Achaea, every other person you'd meet was rogue because they wanted to do their own thing, didn't want anyone telling them what to do, wanted to be a paladin who helps evil people, etc. etc. It was lame because there was no real sense of community mattering.

Both sides have their problems though. The orgs in Lusternia are so emphasized that they become a bit flat, one-dimensional. There isn't a lot of variety within any of the orgs. And this is the thing that bothers me: I don't want to change the entire org to fit what I think it should be like. I don't want to change it for everyone that plays. I want people to have choices. Being a Shadowdancer or a Celestine or druid shouldn't pigeonhole you so much.

I dunno. Morgfyre's help file talks about how he favours those who "revel(s) in intrigues and cabals". I don't really see anything that comes close to my idea of what a Lusternian cabal could be.

I sort of agree, but only slightly.

See, in the early days, the Treeripper tribe was made to be its own "political faction" doing things to to enhance the power and lifestle of those within the Treeripper Tribe. This broke apart a bit many IG years later, when we sort of didn't have any other family or clan to be in competition with. (although I did have quite a bit of fun trying to push other strong families out of Glomdoring) This was MANY MANY IG years ago, about the time we first worked to have Shayle run for GM.

But I think the biggest problem, is that not enough people try to organize to make those minor changes which they want to make to make life for them a bit better. (Sort of how lobbyists and various industries try to change Government to make life easier for them.) My biggest problem has seemed to be that I've been competed against others but they havn't been competing against me, or we were just too successful.

This about sums up a lot of the problem too. Its hard to fill out the ranks of each guild, let alone any other non-official orgs.

I just do it because:

It's fun.
It's something no one else is doing (I like being unique, be it having a city, or my customized items).
I dislike the way the four orgs are opposites, and that their beliefs make it so that they will constantly be at war with each other.

I also find it amusing that I have a rogue organization (though, truthfully, the majority of the 53 active people currently in the clan are not rogue). Organization of rogues almost makes us not so.

I love Lusternia, but I dislike not supporting people who don't want one of four choices.

I do like, however, what I think to be the reasoning behind it.

Also, I understand that unless we suddenly have a large percentage of the population going rogue, little will change, because it's not a problem.

For now, we exist as a small community. I'd like to see it grow, but that's up to players, and not myself.

Personally I wouldn't mind if a city (or another commune) were introduced to the players as a more "neutral" area (a bit like Hashan in Achaea, but more ... existent). It may attract more people to play the game somewhat more on 'their terms', but there's also the fine line of them overstepping bounds for other players and their respective alignment roleplay.

But, I wouldn't expect that of the Admin for at least another couple years, since that's just a huge project on its own.

Unless it's already created.

Not that mine is done. *shrug*

I'm sure some people will get very uppity about this statement.


But realistically, Glomdoring seems a lot like Hashan was in Achaea's earlier days(Before the guilds were removed etc). Though there's two key differences. Glomdoring has a marked, known and useful interest and goals. And Glomdoring seems to lack the sense of community/comraderie/culture that Hashan developed within it's own walls.

Soo.. it's a bit of a give and take. But the whole, nothing matters but glomdoring really screams of Hashan in some ways. They were 'non-existant' because nothing was ever really done to give them a direct and worthwhile interest in the other cities. Where as Glomdoring has the whole anti-Seren thing to work with, so it works a lot better for them.

My only complaint is that Glomdoring(This is broad generalization, no offense), seems a lot more cliqueish then the other orgs. And while I'm sort of spewing my random and often ill-taken opinions on certain things. I'll just come out and hit on thise whole anti-snugglebunny sentiment of Lusternia as a whole. I get it, it's a good thing to police and control and I value and understand why efforts to control and prevent it are taken. But to be honest, it's taken too such an extreme that I feel new players feel unwelcomed and almost afraid to even talk or approach other players within their own orgs. Or maybe it's because the only time I ever see certain well-known players in every org talking to someone that isn't their close personal clique of friends, they're chastizing them.


In any case, being rogue in Lusternia would bore me.. people are quite.. silent here in comparison to some other IRE games. Thank god for Deepnight I suppose, so at least rogues don't feel completely alone all the time.

Well, I've never been in Glomdoring, nor have I ever been in Hashan.

Hashan had 3 things that mattered within it's walls: the shopping area, the restaurant that served darkbrew chicken, and Korben.

Korben's now over here, which leaves 2 things that even loosely validate it's existence.

Glomdoring has shadowdancing, which counts for like, 40 things. More if Shayle's doing it. And Ashteru, who counts one for each guard he can tank, so that's another 25 or 30 things. So in terms of pertinence to the game world, I don't think that the parallel is there.

In terms of interacting with newer players, I would be inclined to agree with you that sometimes organizations can get fairly cliquish, particulary when OOC clans are involved. I lucked out, a friend of mine from Achaea is playing over here, so he helped (and is still helping) me a whole ton with all the new stuff, though my character is still fairly socially isolated. I personally believe that this has more to do with the fact that my character hasn't done anything worth recognizing yet, rather than a case of cliques, but I suppose that time shall ultimately tell.

Rogues are like small children. If they act correctly and there's very few of them, they're awesome. Unfortunately, the more rogues/children you add, the faster they start screwing up and eventually someone ends up going on a rampage through the makeshift kindergarten you've just created, which is both messy and illegal.

Lusternia keeps rogues to a minimum, and those who can make it work are interesting characters that I think make the game a better place. Achaea, on the other hand, encouraged rogues, and as a result, there was really no point in being in an organization. Why buy the milk when you could get the cow for free?

So long as Lusternia keeps up the current system of "Go rogue if you want, but you'll probably end up screwing yourself over, gl hf", I'm happy with the fact that we won't see rogues running around doing nothing but metagaming.

Hooray for heavily armed kindergarteners.

Bambi could be argued to be an asset or flaw to Hashan either way I suppose. But then Iasmos/Zarquan's main Achaean character was a Hashanite if I do recall. So.. That has to count for something. Hashan really was and maybe still is proof why a 'neutral' org simply won't work out for the longterm in an IRE game. At least in my mind.

Hashan was the first charachter I got into in an IRE game, loved the Twilight stuff. There was even a point when Twilight's order took over the world for about 2 weeks

Well, at least your last two sentences were on-topic.

Yeah, and that was quickly kaiboshed for being "unfair", but we had fun while it lasted.

I think rogues are part of the world, and a necessary one. If done properly, they can help provide a sense of perspective to people locked into their cities or communes. I just don't think it is (or should be) a large part, and I completely understand the administrative position that rogues won't be supported. Playing a rogue myself, I might be a trifle biased, of course, but trying to play a character who can essentially go anywhere and speak with anyone becomes rather difficult when one of the organizations to which you belong bans/prohibits travel somewhere, or suddenly goes to war with someone.

I'm not a rogue, so I don't know what that's like, but it's so funny to read that. Not so much funny 'ha ha' as funny odd. Just cause of how last night I was helping this Spout who was completely new and only experienced with a completely different sort of game altogether and one of the things she said to me (via tells, we were having to have a lot of OOC tells back and forth to suppliment the IC instruction via says) was how odd it was that there were so many channels and people talking over them so much (and we were being raided on and off while I was training her so there was all the sorts of chatter that goes along with that happening at the time, plus discussions of hordes on the road and other various things) and I had to tell her how to turn them off because she was having such a hard time concentrating with them on.

So, the 'people are silent' I don't get, if you're in an org. However, I could totally see it being ghost-town like if you weren't.