Only 3,176 votes to go!

The veto was in jest. I don't want to give the impression that I think the envoy discussion should happen in isolation.

I do have some reservations about making it entirely transparent, though. The forum community at large is very loyal to their orgs. If you say Ghost is a weak skill, you're probably from Magnagora. If you say Ghost is fine as-is or could use some downgrade, you're probably from Celest or dealt with Yrael's raids in the communes recently.

The envoy community and the admins would still have the final say on these things, but the pressure would be noticeable influence, and things within the envoys already polarized and powergrabbing enough. Malarious has ideas for substantial Nihilist upgrades all the time. Shamarah and Laysus trying to nerf each other is a monthly spectacle. (Well, to their credit, it's become more one-sided at this point.) On the other thread, someone made a comment about not being able to remove their envoy if they "aren't doing it right." I don't want to deal with a bunch of envoys who feel pressured by their guilds to push through upgrades to appease their leaders.

I'm up for a format change if there's something better out there. The hardcoded Aetolian system is interesting and we might be able to get inspiration from it, but I honestly think that implementing it would be worse than what we have. As it stands, our format works reasonably well, even if I do have my gripes with it. I don't think it can deal with a bigger push for partisan upgrades, though. It'd amplify the biggest problem with the current system far, far too much.

This poll is in jest as well

When did I try to nerf Moon? :/

doubleveto, now you need twice as many

Allright, we got our first 31 votes.

Now we just need 67 or 76 (depending on which headline you read) to go!

I voted for it to be entirely open. I would just like to see what is going on.

Hell no. It's partisan enough as it is.

What raids? I ghost into a Commune, the swarm turns up five to ten seconds later and kills me. Celest at least isn't shutting their doors anymore, although they probably will now I make this post. I'm not even allowed in Glomdoring, and you can't kill anyone in Serenwilde, because the moment they leave the indoor areas, the guards turn up, entirely less than pleased.

Actually, a second veto only counts as someone who isn't overriding.

have to agree that entirely open would be bad. On another note I dont see any Nihilist specific upgrades in my slots Xav.

But Xavius is... gods help me... right! If everyone could see it the influences on us would be more extreme. People give ideas and I dont say whether I will put them in but that I will look into it.

I dont even always envoy Nihilist things

But carry on with the discussion!

I see a big Necromancy upgrade, though...

I can't believe this is even up for a vote

Ghosts not being affected by bleeding or putrefaction? The bodyless not being affected by bodily ailments.. interesting.. thats not huge. Huge would be letting them walk on water in any form.

Escape skills have risks. If you're sloppy and don't cure/stop certain things before trying escape (if you think you're going to need ghost, putre off?), expect to pay on your way out of the situation.

I can see how complete transparency could cause problems, so second option (the reports).

Showing just the reports would be worse. Here, let's show what came out of long discussions without the discussion.

Don't they still have some sort of Reason or Justification clause in the report? I've never been an envoy nor have I seen the report, but it would make sense to have a reason for the change along with the change itself. Provided that they do I really don't see why it would be a huge problem. It's already after the discussion is over so it wouldn't unduly influence the process itself, and I personally would like to see the reports mostly from a curiosity perspective.

They don't, actually. The admin directions actually rather explicitly state not to leave that in the report.

Sometimes a 1-2 sentence justification is left in so the admin know what the envoys were generally thinking, but the multi-paragraph reasonings which would be required for general consumption on a number of suggestions are a no-go in report submission.