Some thoughts for choke changes to make it less unfair in fights, without resorting to dodgy patch solutions (in order of descending preference):

1. Make Choke ACTUALLY an aeon delay. As in, make it delay the effect of all commands by 2 seconds, but managed by a queue. So you can issue 3 commands instantly, and then 2 seconds later have all three commands go through. If storage and spam overflow is a problem, there might be an upper limit on how many commands can sit in the queue, such as 25 (which seems reasonable for a 2 second period). This makes fighting a lot harder (you can't time your attacks/afflictions very easily), but doesn't obliterate curing. It also doesn't penalize some classes overwhelmingly more than others - warriors/monks can still use combos while pet classes still keep a slight advantage. For a room-wide effect that is uncureable and unblockable, I think that's fairly reasonable, and I really like this the best.

2. Make it so choke requires a dropped cauldron to be cast, while shadows can be cast with the cauldron in your inventory and with increased time cost. Make it so that you cannot attach monolith sigils to the cauldrons, so if they are dropped and someone else picks them up, they have to be recalled. Also make sure you can only drop a cauldron on the ground elevation.

3. Create a lowmagic & highmagic skill that can shift choke to an adjacent room for 3 power on a delay, blocked by any type of wall. For example, "invoke summer west".

Other thoughts?

What?

I wish Aeon worked like that...

Why not get all forms changed then? *nudge Mr. Envoy*

Because I don't think that'll go through.

It would neuter anyone who uses Aeon for their offense.

So does decreasing bard damage. That doesn't make it a bad change.

Edit: Personally, I'd prefer that kind of aeon in all forms along with no quicksilver defence, to what we have now. I doubt that's going to get through the combatants club to the admin though, and it would require extra balancing tests and changes to make fair and useful. So I'm only suggesting it for choke here. There's no cure/defense issues with choke, so its easier to change.

That... would make it completely worthless.



I think you mean flames, and no, I don't want people stealing my cauldrons and putting them into nexuses, thanks.



Uh, no.

Choke itself isn't the problem. It's choke in specific situations (like Avatar raids).

Agreed, which is why just not allowing choke in avatar rooms was the ideal solution, but unfortunately Morgfyre said that was unlikely to be approved by the admin. Ugh.

No, choke itself is the problem. In particular in group combat.

It's maybe defensible in solo.

How is it a problem in group combat while it isn't solo? (choke in demesne fits into the 'specific situations' group)

I won't go into the whole explanation about why Choke is a killer in group combat but not in solo combat since it's been argued a number of different times already, and so, here's my idea. Mind, it might not be utterly brilliant, but might as well throw it out there.

If a solution to fixing Choke is being sought without crippling Shadowdancers in solo fights...why not change around Moondance Light to negate it's effects once within the room? It (Light) takes three coven members to pull off and currently no power and minimal balance...if it's changed to require still the same amount of people and at least 3 power from each coven member in the circle, would it be considered enough to fix Choke?

I've not experimented to see if it's possible to Moondance Light in a place where there's dropped shadows or vice versa, but what if it's changed to the suggestion that if there's Light in the area, it's gotten rid of when shadows are dropped and Choke then follows. After that, if the coven was to dance Light again, it would get rid of Choke and the shadows for the 3 power each from each member.

Tradeoffs seem to balance out in my head...Light takes 3 covenmembers and 3 power from each member to get rid of choke and shadows once in a room not permanently, but once. Choke only takes one person, 3 power, and a couple shadows to keep Choke up. It doesn't affect solo combat since Light can't be used, but it might just be able to stop it in group combat while retaining the possibility for Choke to be set up again.

...I hope that came out comprehensible. I'll try explaining again if it's even considered a possibility, unless it's considered too crippling.

Choke is OP against a few classes solo (well, Warriors).

Choke in group combat is...well, I've listed my points on these forums before. If someone could refute those points before declaring Choke to be an 'OMGOP' ability, I'd like to read it (I'm actually curious as to why Choke is seen as the bane of all life).

Any reason as to why the admins refuse to refuse Choke in Avatar-rooms? Is it simply a coding issue?

EDIT (in response to Xiel): If Choke is indeed an OP ability for group combat, then a counter-ability/nerf should balance it for -all- organizations. That said, an upgrade to Light (3 CM, must stay in the room, prevents shadows from being released, but does not remove shadows) was considered. Not sure on the status.

We went through this before, and the only defence people could pull up was that it would "cripple shadowdancers in group combat" (if it were balanced to begin with, it wouldn't, and guardians and wiccans wouldn't mind losing aeon to the same defence, so it's not valid.) People then backtracked to trying to say choke wasn't imbalanced even in group combat.

That said, choke is imbalanced, not just against Seren, so it should be a common skill instead of a moon skill that prevents it.

EDIT: It needs to remove choke and aeon too. Otherwise it doesn't help much because you can still fortify a position with choke and sit in it.

That would be imbalanced.

Only if choke is "imbalanced" to begin with. Keep in mind it could prevent any new aeon being applied in the room too, and if you REALLY want, cure all existing aeon in the room.

The ideas in the first post would destroy the skill.

The idea behind my post was to illustrate the lack of displayed reasoning in regards to Choke being an imbalanced ability in the first place. People keep saying that Choke is an imbalanced ability, without actually showing their reasoning behind such a decision.

Ok!

It's uncureable, unpreventable, indiscriminate, room-wide aeon that puts undue emphasis on passive offense, thus throwing combat heavily in favor of those who have the scarier passive skills. Since combat is not balanced at all in terms of passives versus actives, choke is an unbalanced skill.

This problem is magnified in a group setting because of the ability of one person to unduly effect any number of people.

Satisfied?

If a skill requires another a skill to counter it, this is proof enough that's imbalanced. If a skill requires three people to remain in a room to keep an effect active that stops Choke, Choke itself is imbalanced. That's all I have to say

As for Choke in group combat, SD's wouldn't be crippled. You'd just lose your loldemesne+choke advantage and such like that. It's kinda silly trying to balance group combat anyway, but Choke needs a nerfing. Solely because it's uncurable and the SD has a 95% passive offense. The reason why Retardation (Choke) is bad here because there is no downside for the SD of dropping it. In Achaea & Imperian, vibes die. You drop a cube sigil because Reverberation might die, so the rest of their vibes die quicker. Plus, Achaea and Imperian have enough ranged abilities to allow someone to attack someone who dropped it from a distance effectively. These skills do not exist in Lusternia.

And seriously, it was voted the most hated skill in Lusternia. What more proof do you need that it needs changing?

AMEN!

Aeon requires a set up to be remotely effective, it can be cured, prevented, and it wears off. Comparing choke to aeon in any way is stupid and pointless.

Choke itself, as nothing more than a skill, is fine. It, in theory affects the caster as well as the target. HOWEVER...they gave the skill to a class with hordes of passive safflictions and easy access to sleep lock, (even a sleep causing passive ent!), and easy access to multiple afflicting single line commands. That makes it ridiculous. I never fight in choke. Ever.