The Unexplained of the Fantasy Genre

by Unknown

Back to The Real World.

Unknown2007-11-03 22:34:03
Well, I'm currently working on background for fantasy universe, and I'm trying to go very in-depth to answer as many questions as I can--not to deluge the readers/players with, should it be in story/game format, but so that I have those answers should the need for them arise. Its especially kind of important because there's a crossover potential between various worlds, including a modern earth setting.

I'm a big fan of Tolkein, and one of the main reasons for that is because of the depth of history that can be glimpsed in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings--you can just feel it. There's so much in his development of Middle Earth that never sees explanation in the main books, but it being there adds a richness to the world that I don't think you could ever really match by making stuff up on the spot just to suit your current plot development needs. And so, what i'm trying to ask myself is a bunch of questions that it might help to have answers to.

So, basically, i'm looking for any questions that you might sometimes ask yourself when reading fantasy novels that just don't seem to have any explanation than "It was convenient" or "magic!"


A few examples are:

Why is it that in fantasy novels set on other worlds, the dominant species is almost always 100% identical to earth humans?

Why do almost all fantasy worlds have versions of chess and court-based playing cards and other earth games?

Why does there always just so happen to be a Chosen One conveniently nearby when disaster is about to strike?

Why is the villian always trying to destroy the damn planet/solar system/galaxy/universe?

Aand.. How exactly does that airship stay in the air with just those few prop-blades? tongue.gif


What else can you guys add? These can be common cliches to even things that you've only seen once or twice. Basically, i'm just looking for questions to help me brainstorm and flesh out the laws of my universe as much as possible.

Thanks in advance!
Verithrax2007-11-03 23:00:37
QUOTE(S.A.W. @ Nov 3 2007, 07:34 PM) 455784
Well, I'm currently working on background for fantasy universe, and I'm trying to go very in-depth to answer as many questions as I can--not to deluge the readers/players with, should it be in story/game format, but so that I have those answers should the need for them arise. Its especially kind of important because there's a crossover potential between various worlds, including a modern earth setting.

I'm a big fan of Tolkein, and one of the main reasons for that is because of the depth of history that can be glimpsed in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings--you can just feel it. There's so much in his development of Middle Earth that never sees explanation in the main books, but it being there adds a richness to the world that I don't think you could ever really match by making stuff up on the spot just to suit your current plot development needs. And so, what i'm trying to ask myself is a bunch of questions that it might help to have answers to.

So, basically, i'm looking for any questions that you might sometimes ask yourself when reading fantasy novels that just don't seem to have any explanation than "It was convenient" or "magic!"
A few examples are:

Why is it that in fantasy novels set on other worlds, the dominant species is almost always 100% identical to earth humans?

Because humans are easy to understand and identify with. They provide a baseline; one of the aspects of fantasy is blending the familiar (Medieval human cultures) with the exotic (Elves and such). Additionally, fantasy is a genre that thrives on tradition, and by tradition, humans are portrayed as versatile and convivial, leading to them spreading far and wide into the world. You'll note that in Tolkien humans live everywhere, while all the other races are secluded to particular homes.
QUOTE

Why do almost all fantasy worlds have versions of chess and court-based playing cards and other earth games?
It is presumable that a fantasy universe would have games. Excluding word games and mind games which aren't very scenic, and more physical games or sports which aren't really "period," we're left with board and card games. I've never seen a straight-out reference to chess in a serious work of fantasy fiction, however.
QUOTE

Why does there always just so happen to be a Chosen One conveniently nearby when disaster is about to strike?

Because of the monomyth. If you don't know what that is, just give up and go do your research.
QUOTE

Why is the villian always trying to destroy the damn planet/solar system/galaxy/universe?
Because adventure is always more interesting when there is either something very big and important at stake, or something very personal at stake. An often-used trick is to have both.
QUOTE

Aand.. How exactly does that airship stay in the air with just those few prop-blades? tongue.gif

Because Final Fantasy is retarded crap that no sane human being would ever be able to enjoy.
Ananat2007-11-03 23:39:57
I haven't read Tolkein (don't hurt me!), but I like the Wheel of Time series for some of the same things you mentioned. It's just groovy that the women who use magic have a ton of limits placed on them, the culture is so varied from place to place which to me seems to reflect all the different empires that have taken control and been destroyed, et cetera.

One moment that stands out for me in the series is when some of the girls were eating in... some place, I forget where. They were served these berries that were red and didn't at all look like straw to them. tongue.gif

Let's see...

Why is the hero often either raised by just a parent of the opposite gender or orphaned?

Why is the Good force always represented by Light and/or the color white?

Similarly, why is the Good force almost always compassionate? In the WoT series (since I mentioned it earlier), there is a militant group called the Whitecloaks, but a ton of them are evil and manipulating people who are otherwise practically brainwashed.

Why is there ultimately only one Chosen One?

Why are the Prophecies always right?
Unknown2007-11-04 00:01:01
I like most fantasy series.

Here's one.
Why does the good always win?
Jigan2007-11-04 00:04:11
No matter what world you travel to, there will always be a dog. It might have an additional limb or two, but there is always a dog.
Arix2007-11-04 00:13:56
Unknown2007-11-04 00:23:34
A Song of Ice and Fire is a far better series than The Wheel of Time, and conveniently breaks most of the second posts conventions.
Kaalak2007-11-04 00:37:32
QUOTE(S.A.W. @ Nov 3 2007, 03:34 PM) 455784
Well, I'm currently working on background for fantasy universe, and I'm trying to go very in-depth to answer as many questions as I can--not to deluge the readers/players with, should it be in story/game format, but so that I have those answers should the need for them arise. Its especially kind of important because there's a crossover potential between various worlds, including a modern earth setting.

I'm a big fan of Tolkein, and one of the main reasons for that is because of the depth of history that can be glimpsed in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings--you can just feel it. There's so much in his development of Middle Earth that never sees explanation in the main books, but it being there adds a richness to the world that I don't think you could ever really match by making stuff up on the spot just to suit your current plot development needs. And so, what i'm trying to ask myself is a bunch of questions that it might help to have answers to.

So, basically, i'm looking for any questions that you might sometimes ask yourself when reading fantasy novels that just don't seem to have any explanation than "It was convenient" or "magic!"
A few examples are:

Why is it that in fantasy novels set on other worlds, the dominant species is almost always 100% identical to earth humans?
The author has to sell books and an easy way for the reader to emotionally connect to the characters or plot is by making
them humans. Also using humans as a point of view to explore an alien world makes it easier than the other way around.


Why do almost all fantasy worlds have versions of chess and court-based playing cards and other earth games?
Authors are by definition nerds? Don't know

Why does there always just so happen to be a Chosen One conveniently nearby when disaster is about to strike?
Messiah effect in my opnion. It is deeply rooted in the human psyche that we as a race will be saved if something out of the impersonal universe or we ourselves causes a catastrophy. See Ragnarok and the God Baulder. Can't remember the other mythological references.

Why is the villian always trying to destroy the damn planet/solar system/galaxy/universe?
Because a villian who tries to raise taxes is not as scary.

Aand.. How exactly does that airship stay in the air with just those few prop-blades? tongue.gif
Some genious put helium in the hull surrounded by fire-proof wood?

What else can you guys add? These can be common cliches to even things that you've only seen once or twice. Basically, i'm just looking for questions to help me brainstorm and flesh out the laws of my universe as much as possible.

Thanks in advance!

A good book on writing is Stephen King's "On Writing." A good one on horror is "Dance Macabre."

Unknown2007-11-04 00:38:45
This is a great page for such stuff - fantasy or not.

Now it's time for answerin'.

Why the main race looks like humans, why there are Earth-like elements everywhere and so on - to make the world familiar enough for the reader to empathise with. Besides, making the main character a four-handed green tentacle beast is a much cheaper way to make the world feel exotic than by creating an actual exotic culture or whatever.

Why is the villian always trying to destroy the damn planet/solar system/galaxy/universe?
Because he's an idiot. Smart villains want to conquer things, not destroy them.

Why is the hero often either raised by just a parent of the opposite gender or orphaned?
Why is the Good force always represented by Light and/or the color white?
Why are the Prophecies always right?
Why does there always just so happen to be a Chosen One conveniently nearby when disaster is about to strike?
Because the writer was lazy/a hack. These things do not occur ALWAYS, only in bad books.

Similarly, why is the Good force almost always compassionate?
Only in bad books. Even Tolkien had Good folk who were devoid of compassion for evil. Like that guy in Hobbit who could change into a bear - I forgot his name. Mea maxima culpa.

Why does the good always win?
That's my personal favourite. If the good side wins even though they shouldn't have (acting like total idiots, being complete undergods, and so on), then it means the writer was either a naive idiot or was trying to pull a VERY heavy handed morality tale. The same happens with evil - many a time I saw a "work" of literature (mostly fanfics) where the evil side wins just because. Probably the author feels it's more "kickass" and "cool" that way. It's the same kind of people who dress like Goth wannabees and pretend they're vampires or something.

Aand.. How exactly does that airship stay in the air with just those few prop-blades?
Rule of Cool.
Kaalak2007-11-04 00:42:39
QUOTE(Harrow @ Nov 3 2007, 05:23 PM) 455816
A Song of Ice and Fire is a far better series than The Wheel of Time, and conveniently breaks most of the second posts conventions.


I second this. Well worth reading
Unknown2007-11-04 01:10:24
I third the motion about A Song of Ice and Fire. I also second the motion about Stephen King's On Writing. If you plan to ever write anything, you should read that book.


Also:
Try to explain hammer space. rolleyes.gif
Unknown2007-11-04 01:19:32
Um. I think there's been some misunderstanding. I'm not looking for answers. I understand the familiarity aspects and all that. What i'm looking for is questions that one might ask themselves while reading that authors don't bother to answer, even if to themselves, which is what i'm trying to do--answer those questions in my own universe's history and rules and such.
Unknown2007-11-04 01:38:00
QUOTE(S.A.W. @ Nov 4 2007, 01:19 AM) 455833
Um. I think there's been some misunderstanding. I'm not looking for answers. I understand the familiarity aspects and all that. What i'm looking for is questions that one might ask themselves while reading that authors don't bother to answer, even if to themselves, which is what i'm trying to do--answer those questions in my own universe's history and rules and such.

Trying to answer every possible question is not necessarily the best route to go, or you'll end up with a story where readers skip through pages of tedious explanations in order to get to the meat of the plot. A certain book, which shall remained unnamed, proved this point rather well when it turned every magical ritual into a ten page geometry lesson.
Unknown2007-11-04 02:23:40
QUOTE(Harrow @ Nov 3 2007, 06:38 PM) 455841
Trying to answer every possible question is not necessarily the best route to go, or you'll end up with a story where readers skip through pages of tedious explanations in order to get to the meat of the plot. A certain book, which shall remained unnamed, proved this point rather well when it turned every magical ritual into a ten page geometry lesson.


I'm not planning to explain it all in the actual story/game or where ever its used, but I want to have all the bases covered in my own background, even if it never sees the light of day, I want to have as much explained as I can, so in the case that it ever comes up in a later part, I don't have to just wing it. I find that sort of thing keeps everything nice and together, free of some kinks that show up when creators don't have stuff figured out before hand.

Basically, I was just trying to see if there was anything major i'm missing that I should answer for myself, and I thought the best way to do that was to ask for questions that people often ask themselves when reading fantasy/steam-punk/clock-punk.
Unknown2007-11-04 02:36:44
QUOTE(S.A.W. @ Nov 3 2007, 05:34 PM) 455784
I'm a big fan of Tolkein, and one of the main reasons for that is because of the depth of history that can be glimpsed in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings--you can just feel it. There's so much in his development of Middle Earth that never sees explanation in the main books, but it being there adds a richness to the world that I don't think you could ever really match by making stuff up on the spot just to suit your current plot development needs.


Read the Silmarillion, for starters.

QUOTE(Cuber @ Nov 3 2007, 07:38 PM) 455822
Only in bad books. Even Tolkien had Good folk who were devoid of compassion for evil. Like that guy in Hobbit who could change into a bear - I forgot his name. Mea maxima culpa.


That would be Beorn. Cool guy.
Yrael2007-11-04 02:54:16
QUOTE(Harrow @ Nov 4 2007, 11:23 AM) 455816
A Song of Ice and Fire is a far better series than The Wheel of Time, and conveniently breaks most of the second posts conventions.


I liked them both, to be honest, but the Song series was the only one that had me throwing up my hands, saying, "screw this!" because every time I found someone who it looked like I could root for (Tyrion, Jon, etc) they performed something that threw them into the dog house. Too confusing.

If nothing else, despite how bossy every single bloody woman in the WoT series was, it was a good set of books. Well written, a believable world, and the way things were going, it looked as if the Shadow was going to win regardless.
Unknown2007-11-04 02:55:47
QUOTE(Kromsh @ Nov 3 2007, 07:36 PM) 455847
Read the Silmarillion, for starters.


Read my original post, for starters. I mentioned it, if not by name, in reference to Tolkein's background works.
Unknown2007-11-04 03:13:33
QUOTE(Yrael @ Nov 4 2007, 02:54 AM) 455852
I liked them both, to be honest, but the Song series was the only one that had me throwing up my hands, saying, "screw this!" because every time I found someone who it looked like I could root for (Tyrion, Jon, etc) they performed something that threw them into the dog house. Too confusing.

If nothing else, despite how bossy every single bloody woman in the WoT series was, it was a good set of books. Well written, a believable world, and the way things were going, it looked as if the Shadow was going to win regardless.

I'm sorry. I could have sworn you called the Wheel of Time series well-written and believable. I must have misread something in that sentence. Some of the books were entertaining, sure, but the series is far from the height of fantasy novels. You can only have women tug their braids, fold their arms, and yell at Matrim so many times before it gets a tad predictable and repetitive.

Also, you obviously didn't read far enough into a Song of Ice and Fire... but talking about what happens truly ruins the tension of a book that will kill off your favorite character and his or her entire family at the drop of a hat, so I'll refrain from saying any more than that. The Song series is also far from over - the new book, A Dance of Dragons, is on the horizon.
Unknown2007-11-04 03:14:58
QUOTE(S.A.W. @ Nov 3 2007, 09:55 PM) 455853
Read my original post, for starters. I mentioned it, if not by name, in reference to Tolkein's background works.


No, not really. There's a lot more than just that, and I was under the impression that you hadn't. But this is all beside the point, and I was merely trying to make a friendly suggestion.
Yrael2007-11-04 03:45:14
QUOTE(Harrow @ Nov 4 2007, 02:13 PM) 455857
I'm sorry. I could have sworn you called the Wheel of Time series well-written and believable. I must have misread something in that sentence. Some of the books were entertaining, sure, but the series is far from the height of fantasy novels. You can only have women tug their braids, fold their arms, and yell at Matrim so many times before it gets a tad predictable and repetitive.

Also, you obviously didn't read far enough into a Song of Ice and Fire... but talking about what happens truly ruins the tension of a book that will kill off your favorite character and his or her entire family at the drop of a hat, so I'll refrain from saying any more than that. The Song series is also far from over - the new book, A Dance of Dragons, is on the horizon.



Am I sitting on a throne, spewing vitriol over books you read? Oh, that's right. No.
I read all the books, barring the most recent one. Sorry, I like WoT far more than the Song. The world feels alive, regardless of the fact that Jordan doesn't do any worldbuilding at all. Song is just a story. A good story, but doesn't make you think it's taking place in a real world, so to speak. Just because a series isn't over doesn't mean it's any better or worse than another.