Caedryn2007-12-19 07:38:43
I know people are probably tired of my complaints about this tradeskill, especially given that I make a reasonable amount off it, but still, I actually sat down today to build a database of comm requirements per weapon type/design, and some interesting anomalies popped up.
I suppose the thrust of this thread would be that we need to seriously look at whether non-metal comms are viable, at all, for forging, and if they're not, try and make them viable, because there's numerous absurdities that've popped up.
Take masterweapon design number 533, 'a spiked ironwood mace'.
As a thought experiment, I decided to figure out what it would cost to make one combat-viable weapon with this design. I assumed that I'd get a good weapon with 300 forgings (about right for non-speed one-handers), and that all non-metals would be lost. According to Razeal, the standard market price for gems is 4,500 gold for 100 of any given type.
To make a single number 533, I costed the consumable commodities as the following:
27,000 gold for rubies
67,500 gold for diamonds
2,850,000 gold for wood (assuming that you could buy every wood commodity in Serenwilde and in Glomdoring 10 times over without seeing a price rise from the estimated 90 gold per comm).
And that's for one single weapon, out of a pair that're needed.
This is, to be fair, the worst case scenario. However, around 12-15% of designs are all-metal, and 12% of public designs are all-metal, meaning that 85-88% of designs are effectively unforgable (and this is only masterweapons - in fullplate, where someone may have been drinking just a little too much, there exists a design that requires 50 bull corpses and 10 scalps for every reforging).
The fact that >80% of designs are effectively unforgable is a pain. So essentially, my suggestion is that smelting allows non-metals to be recovered.
Thoughts?
I suppose the thrust of this thread would be that we need to seriously look at whether non-metal comms are viable, at all, for forging, and if they're not, try and make them viable, because there's numerous absurdities that've popped up.
Take masterweapon design number 533, 'a spiked ironwood mace'.
As a thought experiment, I decided to figure out what it would cost to make one combat-viable weapon with this design. I assumed that I'd get a good weapon with 300 forgings (about right for non-speed one-handers), and that all non-metals would be lost. According to Razeal, the standard market price for gems is 4,500 gold for 100 of any given type.
To make a single number 533, I costed the consumable commodities as the following:
27,000 gold for rubies
67,500 gold for diamonds
2,850,000 gold for wood (assuming that you could buy every wood commodity in Serenwilde and in Glomdoring 10 times over without seeing a price rise from the estimated 90 gold per comm).
And that's for one single weapon, out of a pair that're needed.
This is, to be fair, the worst case scenario. However, around 12-15% of designs are all-metal, and 12% of public designs are all-metal, meaning that 85-88% of designs are effectively unforgable (and this is only masterweapons - in fullplate, where someone may have been drinking just a little too much, there exists a design that requires 50 bull corpses and 10 scalps for every reforging).
The fact that >80% of designs are effectively unforgable is a pain. So essentially, my suggestion is that smelting allows non-metals to be recovered.
Thoughts?
Xenthos2007-12-19 07:41:25
QUOTE(caedryn @ Dec 19 2007, 02:38 AM) 467867
...there exists a design that requires 50 bull corpses and 10 scalps for every reforging...
Impressive. I have to agree-- I have no clue what they were thinking when that thing was submitted.
Sybl2007-12-19 07:42:40
QUOTE(caedryn @ Dec 19 2007, 01:38 AM) 467867
I know people are probably tired of my complaints about this tradeskill, especially given that I make a reasonable amount off it, but still, I actually sat down today to build a database of comm requirements per weapon type/design, and some interesting anomalies popped up.
I suppose the thrust of this thread would be that we need to seriously look at whether non-metal comms are viable, at all, for forging, and if they're not, try and make them viable, because there's numerous absurdities that've popped up.
Take masterweapon design number 533, 'a spiked ironwood mace'.
As a thought experiment, I decided to figure out what it would cost to make one combat-viable weapon with this design. I assumed that I'd get a good weapon with 300 forgings (about right for non-speed one-handers), and that all non-metals would be lost. According to Razeal, the standard market price for gems is 4,500 gold for 100 of any given type.
To make a single number 533, I costed the consumable commodities as the following:
27,000 gold for rubies
67,500 gold for diamonds
2,850,000 gold for wood (assuming that you could buy every wood commodity in Serenwilde and in Glomdoring 10 times over without seeing a price rise from the estimated 90 gold per comm).
And that's for one single weapon, out of a pair that're needed.
This is, to be fair, the worst case scenario. However, around 12-15% of designs are all-metal, and 12% of public designs are all-metal, meaning that 85-88% of designs are effectively unforgable (and this is only masterweapons - in fullplate, where someone may have been drinking just a little too much, there exists a design that requires 50 bull corpses and 10 scalps for every reforging).
The fact that >80% of designs are effectively unforgable is a pain. So essentially, my suggestion is that smelting allows non-metals to be recovered.
Thoughts?
I suppose the thrust of this thread would be that we need to seriously look at whether non-metal comms are viable, at all, for forging, and if they're not, try and make them viable, because there's numerous absurdities that've popped up.
Take masterweapon design number 533, 'a spiked ironwood mace'.
As a thought experiment, I decided to figure out what it would cost to make one combat-viable weapon with this design. I assumed that I'd get a good weapon with 300 forgings (about right for non-speed one-handers), and that all non-metals would be lost. According to Razeal, the standard market price for gems is 4,500 gold for 100 of any given type.
To make a single number 533, I costed the consumable commodities as the following:
27,000 gold for rubies
67,500 gold for diamonds
2,850,000 gold for wood (assuming that you could buy every wood commodity in Serenwilde and in Glomdoring 10 times over without seeing a price rise from the estimated 90 gold per comm).
And that's for one single weapon, out of a pair that're needed.
This is, to be fair, the worst case scenario. However, around 12-15% of designs are all-metal, and 12% of public designs are all-metal, meaning that 85-88% of designs are effectively unforgable (and this is only masterweapons - in fullplate, where someone may have been drinking just a little too much, there exists a design that requires 50 bull corpses and 10 scalps for every reforging).
The fact that >80% of designs are effectively unforgable is a pain. So essentially, my suggestion is that smelting allows non-metals to be recovered.
Thoughts?
QFT. I can't say it any better than you have.
Xavius2007-12-19 07:45:29
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Dec 19 2007, 01:41 AM) 467869
Impressive. I have to agree-- I have no clue what they were thinking when that thing was submitted.
Is it an older design? The comms on the oldest cooking designs are all out of whack.
Anyways, yes, weapons cost too much. I spent something like 40k on one masterwork axe. I specifically told her to look for the cheapest greataxe, and it came back 40k in comms. It sounds like that weapon was a trademaster not thinking straight, though.
Noola2007-12-19 07:47:10
Fifty bull corpses? Good god... what does it look like? 
And yeah, you should be able to get gems back at the very least. I mean, it's not like it's hard to imagine someone prizing the gems from a chestplate before chucking into the forge.
And yeah, you should be able to get gems back at the very least. I mean, it's not like it's hard to imagine someone prizing the gems from a chestplate before chucking into the forge.
Xenthos2007-12-19 07:49:45
QUOTE(Noola @ Dec 19 2007, 02:47 AM) 467872
Fifty bull corpses? Good god... what does it look like?
Well, keep in mind that Astral once had no insanity and the creatures were much easier (except for the occasional SuperBull™).
Noola2007-12-19 07:52:23
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Dec 19 2007, 01:49 AM) 467873
Well, keep in mind that Astral once had no insanity and the creatures were much easier (except for the occasional SuperBull™).
Yeah, they'd have to be for someone to think using that many was a good idea.
I'm just trying to picture in my head what armour that required 50 bulls would even look like. Shiri2007-12-19 07:54:18
Caedryn is here, wearing a thick mesh of cowtail armour.
Xenthos2007-12-19 07:59:48
QUOTE(Shiri @ Dec 19 2007, 02:54 AM) 467876
Caedryn is here, wearing a thick mesh of cowtail armour.
Hmm... fifty tails might almost make a suit of armour for a slightly-smaller-than-Human sized race, if done right. I wonder what's done with the rest of the fifty bull corpses.
Caedryn2007-12-19 08:00:27
QUOTE
Item: Fullplate Type: Masterarmour Org: Blackanvil
Commodities: iron 50 bull 50 diamond 10 ruby 10 onyx 10 scalp 10 redtint 5
IMPORTANT: The main noun of this item MUST use this name: FULLPLATE
Appearance:
a bleached white suit of full plate
Dropped:
A bleached white suit of full plate lies here, emanating a truly ghastly stench.
Examined:
An aura of menace radiates from the full plate, seeming to glow faintly.
Upon closer inspection, the plate is constructed of hardened bone,
pieces fused together to offer protection against even the hardiest of
weapons. The horn of an unknown beast protrudes from the right shoulder
plate, inscribed with malignant runes that glow blood red. An insignia
lies on the left shoulder plate: the outline of a crow composed of
diamond. Within the outline, ruby eyes stare at you, seeming to burn
with hateful intentions. The breast plate is seemingly one giant piece
of bone, belonging to a being of epic proportions; a black circle of
onyx decorates the chest of the plate, with a black onyx anvil placed in
the middle of the circle with painstaking care. On the inside, the
armour has been padded with the cut scalps of countless enemies,
radiating the putrid stink of death. An eerie presence surrounds the
armour, sending shivers down your spine as it screams angrily against
this perversion of life.
Comments:
Commodities: iron 50 bull 50 diamond 10 ruby 10 onyx 10 scalp 10 redtint 5
IMPORTANT: The main noun of this item MUST use this name: FULLPLATE
Appearance:
a bleached white suit of full plate
Dropped:
A bleached white suit of full plate lies here, emanating a truly ghastly stench.
Examined:
An aura of menace radiates from the full plate, seeming to glow faintly.
Upon closer inspection, the plate is constructed of hardened bone,
pieces fused together to offer protection against even the hardiest of
weapons. The horn of an unknown beast protrudes from the right shoulder
plate, inscribed with malignant runes that glow blood red. An insignia
lies on the left shoulder plate: the outline of a crow composed of
diamond. Within the outline, ruby eyes stare at you, seeming to burn
with hateful intentions. The breast plate is seemingly one giant piece
of bone, belonging to a being of epic proportions; a black circle of
onyx decorates the chest of the plate, with a black onyx anvil placed in
the middle of the circle with painstaking care. On the inside, the
armour has been padded with the cut scalps of countless enemies,
radiating the putrid stink of death. An eerie presence surrounds the
armour, sending shivers down your spine as it screams angrily against
this perversion of life.
Comments:
A per forging estimate of costs for this, given that excellent fullplate can take 100+ forgings (so estimating it at what my fullplate took, 90 forgings, seems reasonable):
30-40 minutes to kill 50 bulls * 90 = 4,500 required bulls over 45-60 hours (and associated health vial/sparkleberry etc costs, ignoring insanity etc)
Diamonds at 40,500 gold
Onyx at 40,500 gold
Ruby at 40,500 gold
8,100 gold worth of rosehips for red tints.
Rika2007-12-19 09:51:19
I agree that weapons cost too much.
I also think that weapon runes should be toned down/destroyed and the effects of current weapon stats to go up. Then give us normal resetting/non-decay customisation.
I also think that weapon runes should be toned down/destroyed and the effects of current weapon stats to go up. Then give us normal resetting/non-decay customisation.
Daganev2007-12-19 16:53:16
Armour and weapons with crazy comms like that were designed for a single reason. To make sure they are rare and decorative, and are only meant to be forged once.
They also allow for a person to maybe get lucky for say only 15K gold instead of 40K, or sometimes even cheaper.
Other designs were made so that a guild could mass produce items to give to people as gifts upon attaining certain ranks.
Obviously none of these things ended up happening, but that was the rational behind them.
They also allow for a person to maybe get lucky for say only 15K gold instead of 40K, or sometimes even cheaper.
Other designs were made so that a guild could mass produce items to give to people as gifts upon attaining certain ranks.
Obviously none of these things ended up happening, but that was the rational behind them.
Acrune2007-12-19 16:59:19
QUOTE(Noola @ Dec 19 2007, 02:47 AM) 467872
Fifty bull corpses? Good god... what does it look like?
Big pile o' bulls wearing scalp hats.
It would have great protection, you'd never be able to get to the squishy person in the center.
Ashteru2007-12-19 18:25:07
We could make it so that the forging gods give back all items when we smelt stuff!
