Currently there are several problems with the Avechna Avenger system that prevent it from fulfilling its purpose properly. These are some suggestions for correcting it so that these issues no longer come up. The admin are against replacing the avenger system, and that's fine, it's not what I think needs doing. However, "it works well enough" is not quite adequate when these issues exist, and they should be corrected.


Issue 1
===
Defend is annoying, unnecessarily difficult to get to work properly, and has some design flaws.

Problem B: Defend seems to declare you to anyone the defendee declared if you attack them. This punishes people for defending those clueless about the system (who think they're being attacked and declare, or get illusioned and declare, or any number of things) which is also something the PK system should not be punishing because those people probably need the most defending to begin with.
Solution to B: Defend should not declare you to anyone under any circumstances. If you defend someone who declared and attacked Shamarah, say, Avechna would still stop you and make you declare if you try to attack Shamarah. That way you don't get suspect out of nowhere.

^--- PROBABLY FIXED, HAVEN'T TESTED


Issue 2
===
Territory issues are abusable (and get abused a lot.)

Problem B: You can yank people out of their org into areas where different PK rules apply, but they can't yank people back in. This is a bad move and is exactly why nexi were changed offplane so people can't be ganked out of them.
Solution to B: Make it so forcibly moving people out of territory is illegal OR impossible OR both. I don't care as long as it doesn't happen.

^--- STILL PROBLEMATIC

Potential problem C: Fear hexes and other stuff that moves people should not cause them to change PK-areas. I notice this is already the case in some places because I accidentally bullkicked someone into Glomdoring (they were a Gloom) and it spazzed and wouldn't let me, but other things seem to be able to cause movement like this.
Solution to C: Make this not happen, obviously.

^--- STILL PROBLEMATIC



Issue 3
===
It is trivially easy to completely ignore the Avenger system when jumping people for whatever the hell spurious reasons you want.

Problem B: The above, but with a solid amount of good bashing areas. Especially vicious because good bashing areas are offprime to begin with.
Solution to B: This one is easier to fix. Make it so you can only be autodeclared and killed in an area if your killer is associated with that area. This makes it possible to bash places like Shallach (clearly a bashing area) without getting ganked for it if, say, a Celestian is passing through and feels like getting suspect-free kills. This obviously covers villages and orgs, but Shallach, Presidio, Shallamurine, Arthar'rt and others would all be neutral. If people want to jump others there they can go the extra mile. Potential problem: Kephera and Illithoid. I am not sure how to treat these two areas. I'd like to lean on the side of caution, but unlike places like Shallach and Shallamurine, protecting the mobs there can actually matter for an org's interests.

^---- STILL MAIN PROBLEM W/WHOLE SYSTEM

Problem C: Mob deaths ignore declare. Basically, if I feel like jumping Narsrim while he's bashing, and for whatever reason he's not bashing in one of the many decent areas that enemy you for the privilege, I can execute the following procedure: run up to him, declare, web. Since he's such a cripple at curing I can just keep webbing until the gorgog he's bashing (for example) finishes him off. Then I won't get suspect.
Solution to C: Change the suspect-getting routine so it checks when the person has died whether anyone has declared and attacked in the last _period of time_ instead of whatever it's doing now. There is another factor that should be changed to work like this but I can't remember what it is right now.

^--- MAY HAVE BEEN FIXED?

Problem D: As with the above, but with non-aggressive things like choke. I don't even have to declare that way, meaning the person can't even fight back without getting suspect.
Solution to D: Any skill that can be used to harm someone should be aggressive and declare people in the room who run into it. Choke is the main one I can think of right now, but illusions also factor in, especially when people abuse them to illusion attacks and then the other person gets confused and ends up declaring to defend themselves.

^--- STILL A PROBLEM



Issue 4
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It's impossible for people who die to do anything about it other than sit on suspect for 30 months and not go bashing in areas which enemy you or go offplane. This is what karma curses were supposed to fix.

Problem A: Karma curses are utterly worthless. I don't think anyone has been hit by one of these and cared about it in months and months.
Solution to A: Any number of things.
1: Ignore the problem because people aren't supposed to be able to do anything about it if they're killed other than sit on suspect.
2: Make karma curses impossible to remove for X amount of time so it actually matters.
3: Make karma build up gradually instead of being gatherable. This would also fix the bizarreness that is the wide array of free buffs given by karma blessings. It would require replacing the harmony karma skill, but that's broken now anyway so whatever!

^---- DOESN'T NECESSARILY NEED FIXED, MIGHT IMPROVE THINGS THOUGH

INFORMED comments welcome! P.S "there isn't enough conflict on prime" is a totally different argument, please take that somewhere else or fight people who actually want a fight!

I got another problem with Avechna

he's fat

(I'm sorry, it seemed like you put a lot of work into this extremely analytical post and I just had to deride it somehow.)

I will veto Jack's post.

Good summary.

His or mine? I honestly can't tell.

Anyway, updated with Jack's concern.

Anything more sensible to be said?

Well, yours-- but yours is no longer a good summary, since you added a vetoed suggestion. Hmph.

I agree with the overall sentiment, but I have a few issues with the things you outlined.


You're forgetting about third parties. Say Talkan and Derian are fighting and Talkan kills Derian. I don't really have any good reason to be involved in their conflict, but I want to kill Talkan, so I defend Derian and now I can run over and attack Talkan without worrying about suspect.

That's not how it works, and I know because I was playing around with this yesterday. If I enter Serenwilde and get attacked by Krellan, and then leave, he can still continue to attack me for the next few minutes and I do not get suspect on him if he kills me. The only time the defender would have to declare in this situation is if that defender DIDN'T attack me while I was in enemy territory; so if Alianna bumbled along after I left Serenwilde to join the fight, she'd have to declare me and thus I'd get suspect on her if I died (assuming I hadn't declared any other Seren, in which case she could defend them.


It really isn't. Trust me.

While I agree mostly with the sentiment I should point out that some people DO defend areas because of racial roleplay or whatever. Also, as a side-note, I feel attacking the merians on the Arysian Isles should give you an enemy status so Celestians can defend them.


This is definitely NOT a solution at all. Say I'm still a Shadowdancer, and I jump Sojiro and we're fighting and I choke the room. While we're fighting, Malicia happens to wander through. Malicia has suspect on me from an earlier fight - should she now get vengeance on me just because she walked into my choke through no fault of my own? That's just stupid.

Karma curses are not worthless because of their effects. Knowledge curse, for instance, is absolutely sick and pretty much stops most classes who are hit by it (read: non-warrior, non-monk) from fighting at all. What makes them worthless is how you can remove them by just having karma stockpiled. However I think this is also what makes them fair, they would be too powerful if you couldn't.


Get that man a treadmill.

Ok, this sucks, but is so marginal to the issue (you could just ask Talkan to ally you) that it's not worth considering. At the VERY LEAST they can have defend doable on people in your org. Cross-org defending for valid reasons doesn't happen often so whatever.

This keeps happening to me. I guess I'll just to find some sucker helpful person who's willing to vitae to test it because I've run into this issue multiple times before, and in fact issued about it and been told it's supposed to work that way.


I know from first hand experience (i.e people doing it to me, not the other way around) that it is. Plus it happens to a lot of my friends. In fact this kind of BS kill offplane in neutral territory and in bashing areas that simply happen to enemy you are many times more common than actual avechna-regulated jumping.

I can't remember the last time this actually happened. Mostly it's a thin excuse for ganking people you don't like and think you can easily beat because you just happen to be of that race. Areas like Tolborolla get on well enough without the furrikin being community being unable to kill you there for no reason and with no repercussion, as do the Moors Aslaran (can you imagine if bashing krokani made you killable by anyone? UGH, midbie bashing would be completely hostile). This system gets abused too much and the occasional valid conflict is not worth the sacrifice. EXCEPTION: Kephera/Illithoid. I don't really know what to do about those as mentioned.

I can concede this point. Maybe it should just be treated as bad behaviour from an admin perspective to use that kind of crap. It doesn't happen much, so I'm not too concerned about this one.



They're not really "fair" though. They're worthless. The fact that they wouldn't be worthless if something was tweaked is exactly what I'm getting at. Just because the effects would be really good if anyone could use them (which they can't), it doesn't mean the system is actually relevant as it stands. We need to figure out some kind of compromise here, because while the situation where you're stuck unable to fight for days due to being karma cursed is kind of bad, the situation we have now is pretty terrible. I liked the "karma builds up slowly instead of being recoverable" (why is it recoverable anyway? If level 20 Lendren the griefer apprentice kills someone too much, why should he be punished more for not being able to bash gorgogs than level 100 Ialie the griefer queen?) since it also limits the silliness that is karma blessings, but maybe that deserves more thought just in case. Either way, something here is not working properly.

EDIT: Ugh, 4:41 already, will respond more in the morning.

new solution: Make it unnecessary to ally people you obviously already are allied to, Commune/city members, guild members, order members. IN FACT, make it unnecesarry to even use the defend command on these, autodefend FTW.

please get that chain drag thing count as a hit even when it fails, kthx


Choke should only hit people who have declared <> in any form (enemy territory, declare, defend) or who are declared by the shadowdancer using it. (although harder in mechanics it should probably also hit people using debating skills and healing... not sure if that is possible though)

I would like that, yes.

should give enemy status to both people hunting merians and gorgogs so we can also kill the Celestians trying to close the rift

This is only true if Talkan initially declared Derian. If you defend Derian when he started the fight, you're not getting a free ride.

One minor issue that I'm sure isn't encountered much but I think still needs to be addressed is when the Avenger is attacking person A, person B runs in and sneaks in the last hit. So person A prays, comes back and gets raped by the avenger and prays again. The Avenger should just one hit you. The avenger appears before you, it shakes it's mighty finger disapproval at you and you have 5 seconds before you fall over dead.

Honestly I think if you are an glom enemied to seren and in seren territory...the second you walk in you are open to kill and be killed while you are in the territory. If you leave, the Serens can chase said glommie for 2 minutes without having to declare. Glommie can't attack out of the territory without declaring. If glommie is attacked in seren territory then leaves...it doesn't carry over. He still has to declare anyone that dosen't attack him once he leaves Seren territory.

Now things like being enemied to The observatory *cough cough*, if you are hunting there or in the caves underneath...you should not be ganking season to anyone. If you are enemied to merians (can you be enemied to merians?) and are in bandero...Celest can gank you without status. Random Seren can't gank you because they have no connection to the merians.

I'm not 100% sure that made sense and I'm too lazy to read over it. Just my suggestions.

Yes, you hit on the issue I mentioned vis. mobs bashing you, but forgot what it was.

When you die, there should be a check. Has this person been declared and attacked by anyone? Ok, give them suspect. Has the Avenger tried to gank this person? Ok, make them pray, give them heavier xp loss, give the other dude XP back, peace them, and then remove the Avenger-ganking. Right now it only seems to check if you were -killed- by one. Awkward.


Maybe. You can't be enemied to merians and the merians get on just fine. Making merians (celest only, not merians due to changelings), kephera and illithoid work this way (again, Seren/Celest and Mag/Glom only) would be an undesirable answer to the problem but maybe the only viable one.

I don't see any more reason to make merians Celest-aligned than making about three different places Mag-aligned. Even kephera and illithoid are a stretch, but there's at least a real org tie there.

Yeah, I think merians can be easily excluded too.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of Influence ability through which someone can declare themselves aligned with an NPC org, which couples with an immediate pseudo-enemy status with one (or more?) other orgs. Having ally status might grant certain benefits, such as a minor stat boost when that org is 'on top' in some quest, or perhaps having a stat boost while in that org's territory. This would necessarily have to go away if they're ever enemied to that org, but have the auto-enemy status removed if they haven't earned actual enemy status already.

For villages, it would make it easier to influence that village, and harder to influence it's opposing village(s).

But that's another topic, I suppose.

Avenger IS broken, and I have a log to prove it.
Rika was in enemy territory, I attacked her.

Krellan defended her.

highjump krellan

Your action causes the nearly invisible magical shield around you to fade away.
You change your mind as Avechna whispers in your mind an inquiry on whether you wish first declare aggressions.

This is not how it should work.

Avenger is broken in that you were allowed to attack me because I killed a denizen who attacked me first.

That's working as intended, actually.

You're in enemy territory.