Due to recent postings I was just curious of others thoughts on changes that should be done to make these two skills more "balanced" out since the main argument is Lich is so OP and much more useful than Trueheal. Though to start things off. Trueheal is a 10 power skill that heals you of wounds/health/afflictions etc, giving you the chance to move away and avoid xp loss or continue on with a fresh start. Right? Lich costs 20 power to use (10 if you die, 10 to put it back up) to.. almost do the same thing as Trueheal with a little more flexability but there are things that you can do to prevent this and not Trueheal, (i.e. using Eye Sigils to prevent soul movement so you can again kill the person, Greater Pent., Inquisition, etc.)

(Let's not turn this into a 10 page rant thread, please. Post logical, unbiased ideas!)

Trueheal:
Sure, give Celest a construct so everyone can have it, though to even things out a bit remove the barrier that you get from Trueheal since the barrier acts like Serpent if I'm not mistaken? This would probably relieve some of the complaints people get from Trueheal still leaving you with the benefit of starting over. If you want the barrier then Serpent instead!

Lich:
I'd be fine with Lich having a conglute style xp loss added to it along with Avenger recognizing lich as death as well. That would basically leave Lich as just a vitae with the added stat gains it gives.

My ideas were a bit more detailed when I thought of them 6 hours ago but that's about the gist of it.

Thoughts? Ideas? Let's hear.

The skills are ok as they are! Please close this thread as well.

I agree with both your ideas.

However, rather than giving TH to all of Celest, a more balanced solution would be to remove Lich for all of Magnagora. Geomancers, Cacophony, and Ninjakari weren't designed with contagion, +2 str, and +2 int in mind!

Or even better, swap trueheal and lich. I want trueheal!

Giving Tahtetso TH would be insane, given that they otherwise have little use for power. And Psymet Tahtetso would be able to use TH for less than 10p in the right circumstances.

First off, trueheal costs 10p, requires 1000 mana and gives a 7 second barrier. Lichdom costs 10p, which you can set before combat/bashing and allows you to fight to the death and lose absolutely nothing. Having to raise it back is irrelevant. Some would say they'd rather fight to 0hp and escape with absolutely no xp loss, than to hold on to 10p and hinder their offense. Sure, it might be frustrating for some when a Celestine/Paladin trueheals, but it's equally if not more so, when you kill someone and gain nothing for it, while they lose nothing.

I'm all for changing the angelfont construct so that all people get it, since the admin saw fit to give all of Mag's guilds a trans ability. Let's not forget all the other nice benefits lichdom gives. Why should trueheal lose the barrier? There are attacks that go through it and keep in mind, it doesn't cure everything. It was already nerfed once. In regards to lichdom, it'd be better if it only allowed a no xp loss death once per game day/month.

Vath, you know damn good and well where these threads lead. You have seen at least 100 of these same type of threads since you joined. Stop stirring the pot brutha!!!


TH is OP
Lich is OP
Both are OP for different reasons.... yarr! Let it die.

I knew this post was coming.

Trueheal, IMO, is better in many situations than lich. You know what happens when you lich during a raid? You usually die again. Any demi/cubix owner with Trueheal can raid alone with no risk. Ilyarin raided Earth, 4 people attacked him, trueheal demi escape, rinse repeat. That's not to say it's OP or better than Lich, just in some circumstances. It's already hard enough killing a Demi Paladin. When they trueheal it's freaking ridiculous. I'm just tired of hearing lich and trueheal compared when they aren't really comparable function wise...and both are incredibly useful. "Nerf lich and keep trueheal as is" isn't a valid argument.

edit: Lich isn't 10p. It might be 10p to get the seed, but you lose whatever power you had when you die. You also come back defenseless and off eq. You are a sitting duck.

I...I agree...

What's to stop someone from reforming after dying and cubix'ing out? It happens all the time. Not everyone has a cubix and it shouldn't really have any bearing on the discussion. Demigod with trueheal? Demigods with lich don't even lose essence when they die.

Returning off eq and getting attacked again. It does happen. Believe it or not, everyone with lich doesn't escape from everything scott free. Like I said, they serve totally different functions and are better than one another in different situations. However, saying lich needs a nerf so that it only prevent xp loss for a day, and trueheal kept as is won't happen. There needs to be some middle ground.

But... lich is also supposed to be an escape ability, right? Why would you want to escape in a raid? Aren't you the one attacking? If you meant that you die when you're defending, wouldn't you conglut? I know not everyone has conglutinate, but your example was of Ilyarin, the Ascendant Paladin with Trueheal - I don't think I'll be flamed too much if I assume all demigods who have lich have conglutinate as well, will I?

Secondly, how are you a sitting duck when you lich? Don't you have a few seconds to run as a soul unhindered? That's still a chance to escape, however slight, isn't it? EDIT: And don't most demigods, since we're talking about them, have health and mana with the truckloads? How exactly will they be dying immediately after they reform?

So why can't we just give it a rest? We're all saying they're fundamentally different skills which can hardly be compared on any level at all, but we keep comparing them and complaining that the other orgs' is better (I know you weren't saying exactly this, Bianca, not talking directly to you here)! Honestly, do you think it'll ever end? I do, actually. I believe that this will end the day when the admins grow so bloody fed up with all this endless whining that they will succumb to our absurd demands and they will give us all both lich and trueheal! That'll be a sad day, in my humble opinion.

Thirdly, the skills are both very, very useful! I'm happy with how they are. Granted, no one cares, but I'd still like more people to understand that it's impossible to compare the two. As Bianca has stated, they're used situationally - it's like complaining that the geo staff is worse than the aqua staff because they have different damage types...

Lastly, I'll ask you this: if 50% of the playerbase states that lich is overpowered and if the other 50% of the playersbase suggests that trueheal is overpowered, who is right? Tell me! It's not like it's the old demesne summon, when the vast majority of the players agreed that it was overpowered! Really, just replace 'demesne summon' with any other ability which was more than generally agreed upon that it needed changing. Did they change it? Yes! Balance can't be perfect, but we can sometimes get asymptotically close to it, despite what several people might say.

Really lastly, I agree with Ildaudid, bruthas.

It is, yes. However it has limitations that trueheal does not. I can't count the number of times i've died, and had to lich in the same room because of eye sigils.

Essentially, Vathael is proposing a change to make both parties happy. Most lich users would consider taking a nerf to lich if it included a nerf to trueheal. I would venture to guess most Celestines, or the vocal ones, would not. It's a bit of an impasse.

Then buff lich, don't nerf both of them! Make it so when you die a lich, you become, uh, something other than a normal soul, which lets you bypass eye sigils.

EDIT: Of course I wouldn't be happy with removing the barrier from trueheal... Celestines don't have serpent. So what he's suggesting is 'give everyone trueheal, but also nerf it for the Celestines and Paladins who used to be unique in having trueheal.'

...Tzekelkan, I really think you're missing the whole point of this exercise. Lich is too good. The point Celina seems to be making is that certain Magnagorans may obstreperously get in the way of fixing that unless trueheal, which is perceived by said Magnagorans as better or just as good, is nerfed as well.

Huh? I don't think anyone's considered making lichdom better than what it already is. Trueheal has its drawbacks. So does lichdom. I think most people have a problem with 1/2 of the playerbase being able to avoid xp/essence loss entirely.

Hmm, then maybe I did miss the point. I thought she was saying lich wasn't good enough most of the times, but it was good some of the times. All right, I'll go to sleep, whatever.

EDIT: Oh, I was focusing more on Bianca's "with lich I die easily, with trueheal you do not".

Meh, speaking from outside?

If I were a paladin or celestine, and lost the barrier in exchange for a very low end xp loss from liching, I'd feel like I got the raw end of that, even if angelfont gave it to everyone.

The abilities aren't diametrically linked, they should each be balanced within the context of the game as a whole, not within the context of some hammurabi opposition of one another.

Should Lich have an XP loss? I dunno, maybe, maybe not. That's one issue.

Should anglefont give trueheal? That's a seperate issue.

Should all of magnagora get lich? That's a third issue.

They're not completely independent, only because they all exist in the same context of the game world, but they aren't linked in some mirror-world relationship either.

I believe this is where I said "give lich a loss" comes in.

I know. Was clarifying for Tzekelkan.