Bugs

by Shiri

Back to Ideas.

Shiri2008-02-11 08:21:40
The bug system in Lusternia may be useful for admin, but for players it's a real nightmare. I think most of this disparity comes from the idea that the effort it would take it do it another way is too much to justify the advantages for players, but I'd argue that improvements to the system would help player satisfaction with the game a lot because some of the problems I'm about to describe are really frustrating.

Problem 1: Is this a bug?
We have no way of knowing. If a non-bug gets bugged, it's ignored and you never know any better. Since bug abuse is illegal, you then can't use the skill which obviously LOOKS bugged (even if it isn't) for fear of being punished for it later.

Problem 2: It's a bug, but did they get it?
Sometimes mistakes happen, and bugs seem to get dismissed even though they actually -are- bugs (I may be wrong on this, but it's the most plausible explanation for why we sometimes bug things, they persist for months, and then get fixed immediately after forum complaining such a long time later.)

Problem 3: Did they fix it yet?
Unless I'm expected to test all the situations my skills are broken in monthly so I can tell if they've been fixed yet, I have no way of knowing whether I can use them, or whether I should just give up and recode my system or something to not do those skills.

Problem 4: What, they fixed it? When!?
We don't get told when bugs are fixed, so sometimes we can go on not using a skill for ages even though it's fixed.

This all basically blurs into the fact that we have NFI what is bugged at any given time. The whole system is just full of miscommunication, and the fact we can't ask about it on the forums doesn't help either. We need a couple changes to rectify this.

1. Add a command or something so that if a bug is dismissed as not a bug, the bug message can be returned to the player along with "this is not a bug." A similar one for "you didn't include enough information" would be great.
2. Add a weekly (or biweekly) announce post where all the recent bugs fixed can go. Morgfyre has been doing similar things, but monk stuff keeps getting broken and unbroken (for exampel) and it's a really huge pain that we don't know when bits of it are fixed.
3. MAYBE some way for a player to see where their bugs are in the system, but this is an alternative to 2.

This way, if something is a problem but not a bug, we can bitch about it on the forums and/or get our envoys to change it, we'll be able to tell how things are actually supposed to work, we'll know our problems aren't being ignored, and it will just be a lot less annoying in general.
Ilyarin2008-02-11 13:30:54
I think perhaps a cleaner solution would be something that allows transparency regarding a player's own bugs. Ie, if they do 'BUG Eep! Skill x is broken and is blowing up Celest instead of giving Serenwilde a million power' they can use BUGS to list all their pending bugs. If they realise that they've bugged something that actually isn't a bug, they can DELBUG # to delete their own reports. And finally, when a bug is dealt with by the administration it is removed from the list (preferrably with a short message from one of the administrators). If there is a status associated with bug reports, it would be good to see that also. Ie, 'Unassigned', 'Assigned', 'Fixing', etc.

Summary: add BUGS and DELBUG commands to see and destroy bugs you have submitted that are pending.
Shiri2008-02-11 13:38:11
That would be good too, and probably take less effort, but there does need to be a difference between "not a bug" and "fixed" when it's removed.
Ilyarin2008-02-11 13:51:12
It being removed would be reasonable grounds to assume it's been fixed. Then, if it's the same, you could comfortably assume it's not a bug.
Shiri2008-02-11 13:53:14
That sounds like an unnecessary extra step to have to go through.

That said, even with that extra step it would be great compared to the current situation.
Forren2008-02-11 14:02:05
QUOTE(Ilyarin @ Feb 11 2008, 08:51 AM) 485524
It being removed would be reasonable grounds to assume it's been fixed. Then, if it's the same, you could comfortably assume it's not a bug.

Or that it was dismissed as not a bug, I guess?
Fain2008-02-11 14:42:34
QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 11 2008, 03:21 AM) 485506
Problem 1: Is this a bug?
We have no way of knowing. If a non-bug gets bugged, it's ignored and you never know any better. Since bug abuse is illegal, you then can't use the skill which obviously LOOKS bugged (even if it isn't) for fear of being punished for it later.


This is really (says I, unhelpfully), a common sense issue. Most of the time you'll know if it's a bug or not. If you're not sure, then weigh it up - if the maybe-bug leads to a significant combat or economic advantage, and the uncertainty is getting in the way of the use of your skills/property/credits/gold, then don't feel shy about ISSUEing - that's part of what they're there for. If it isn't, or you think the use of your 'maybe-bug' really doesn't matter all that much anyway, then use your common sense. If it doesn't seem like any sort of abuse, it's probably not, and we won't punish you for a reasonable mistake.

QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 11 2008, 03:21 AM) 485506
Problem 2: It's a bug, but did they get it?
Sometimes mistakes happen, and bugs seem to get dismissed even though they actually -are- bugs (I may be wrong on this, but it's the most plausible explanation for why we sometimes bug things, they persist for months, and then get fixed immediately after forum complaining such a long time later.)


Accidental deletions happen very infrequently - so 999 times out of 1000, the answer is: yes, we got it.

Bugs aren't fixed solely in the order in which they're filed. They're also fixed according to urgency and difficulty. If there is a particularly difficult looking bug which isn't at all urgent, it will be left for much longer. Sometimes a well-placed forum whine may speed up the fixing of a particular bug; more often it doesn't make any difference at all - either way, it's not because we've lost it!

QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 11 2008, 03:21 AM) 485506
Problem 3: Did they fix it yet?
Unless I'm expected to test all the situations my skills are broken in monthly so I can tell if they've been fixed yet, I have no way of knowing whether I can use them, or whether I should just give up and recode my system or something to not do those skills.

Problem 4: What, they fixed it? When!?
We don't get told when bugs are fixed, so sometimes we can go on not using a skill for ages even though it's fixed.


Treating those two problems as reiterations of the same point: coding fixes are usually announced. If they're not announced formally, then usually the envoys are told. If there is no formal announcement and no envoy is told and you're left not knowing, then we've screwed up and we apologise. Sorry. ISSUE to check.

QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 11 2008, 03:21 AM) 485506
This all basically blurs into the fact that we have NFI what is bugged at any given time. The whole system is just full of miscommunication, and the fact we can't ask about it on the forums doesn't help either. We need a couple changes to rectify this.

1. Add a command or something so that if a bug is dismissed as not a bug, the bug message can be returned to the player along with "this is not a bug." A similar one for "you didn't include enough information" would be great.
2. Add a weekly (or biweekly) announce post where all the recent bugs fixed can go. Morgfyre has been doing similar things, but monk stuff keeps getting broken and unbroken (for exampel) and it's a really huge pain that we don't know when bits of it are fixed.
3. MAYBE some way for a player to see where their bugs are in the system, but this is an alternative to 2.

This way, if something is a problem but not a bug, we can bitch about it on the forums and/or get our envoys to change it, we'll be able to tell how things are actually supposed to work, we'll know our problems aren't being ignored, and it will just be a lot less annoying in general.


Please don't think your problems are ignored, they aren't. As trite as it may sound, your problems are our problems, and it's vitally important to us to sort them out.

As I see it (and I don't know if the other admin will agree with me), there are two problems with your first suggestion, the second of which also applies to your third suggestion. The first is that it will be time-consuming; the second is that it will (potentially) open up a dialogue with particular players who may disagree with their bug being dismissed/sent back/ranked as not-urgent, and we'll be opening an even more timeconsuming can of worms. As far as suggestion number two is concerned, I'll pass on your suggestions.
Shiri2008-02-11 14:51:10
One problem with the individual things you said: common sense is really not that great of a judge. There are plenty of issues where it's realllllly ambiguous. For example, remember when monk ppk with break mod stunned a -lot-? Most people had no clue whether that was a bug or not. I thought it was because I remember a change being made to bonecrusher breaknose and assumed the stun was part of the delivery code rather than the aff code (like when shofangi kneecap didn't destance, only prevent changing stance, but axelord kneecap destanced as part of the delivery.) I couldn't find any evidence of that, though, and no clear consensus could be reached. Eventually, after a -long- time, people gave up and threw it into the envoy report for stuns. In the meantime, people had no idea whether they should be using it or not - it wasn't being treated as a bug or fixed as far as anyone could see, but it sure offered a significant combat advantage. I would love for these kinds of situations to be avoided.

I don't exactly think my problems are ignored, though it's disheartening to see bugs which majorly affect me go on for quite a while. I usually assume they've gotten lost in the system rather than ignored on purpose, if I think they're being missed at all. I really do think -knowing- this stuff would be great though. If my solutions are too time-wasting, Ilyarin's looks better and less work-intensive after it's implemented. Regarding dialogues with players disagreeing with stuff being dismissed - what I was hoping is that if something was defined not a bug, and this isn't contradictory with things other admin have said (this does sometimes happen), it can be taken to envoys or suggested on the ideas board or something for changing. Without that they just get bugged and then left there, not knowing whether people should be wasting envoy slots or similar on it or not.
Gwylifar2008-02-11 15:00:29
IRE has a long tradition of AB files that tell you almost nothing about a skill, and certainly not how it's intended to work. Many of them don't even tell you what the skill does. For instance, consider this:

QUOTE(AB WILDARRANE WHITEHORN)
Stanza: Mid (4-6)
Targetable: Yes
Power: 3 (Moonhart Mother)
The sound of this music summons forth the image of White Hart whose voice will ring out and join your sound. Whoever is the subject of his attentions cannot help but be struck by its beauty.

What is that even expected to do? If there's a small change in some detail of how it works, is it intentional or a bug? I think it'd be a lot easier to swallow the idea that "you can tell if it's a bug with common sense" if the skill descriptions actually told you at least what the skill does, if not also how it works.
Fain2008-02-11 15:01:27
QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 11 2008, 09:51 AM) 485537
One problem with the individual things you said: common sense is really not that great of a judge. There are plenty of issues where it's realllllly ambiguous. For example, remember when monk ppk with break mod stunned a -lot-? Most people had no clue whether that was a bug or not. I thought it was because I remember a change being made to bonecrusher breaknose and assumed the stun was part of the delivery code rather than the aff code (like when shofangi kneecap didn't destance, only prevent changing stance, but axelord kneecap destanced as part of the delivery.) I couldn't find any evidence of that, though, and no clear consensus could be reached. Eventually, after a -long- time, people gave up and threw it into the envoy report for stuns. In the meantime, people had no idea whether they should be using it or not - it wasn't being treated as a bug or fixed as far as anyone could see, but it sure offered a significant combat advantage. I would love for these kinds of situations to be avoided.


That sounds like a prime issue for clarification situation - just make sure that when you do issue, you state your question. If you say, "monk ppk with break mod stuns more than I think it should, is this right?" - the chances are that it will be converted into a bug and you'll not get any more than notice of that. Instead say: "monk ppk with break mod stuns more than I think it should - please tell us whether the continued use of this skill will be considered bug abuse".

QUOTE(Shiri @ Feb 11 2008, 09:51 AM) 485537
I don't exactly think my problems are ignored, though it's disheartening to see bugs which majorly affect me go on for quite a while. I usually assume they've gotten lost in the system rather than ignored on purpose, if I think they're being missed at all. I really do think -knowing- this stuff would be great though. If my solutions are too time-wasting, Ilyarin's looks better and less work-intensive after it's implemented. Regarding dialogues with players disagreeing with stuff being dismissed - what I was hoping is that if something was defined not a bug, and this isn't contradictory with things other admin have said (this does sometimes happen), it can be taken to envoys or suggested on the ideas board or something for changing. Without that they just get bugged and then left there, not knowing whether people should be wasting envoy slots or similar on it or not.


Well, for all I've sounded like I was passionately defending the status quo in my post above, I certainly agree that the bug system could be improved. I wouldn't hold out hope for any changes in the immediate future, but maybe it's something that our delightful coders might consider later on. In any case - your frustration is noted. We'll see what we can do about it.
Shiri2008-02-11 15:04:06
Good to hear, and thank you for responding!
Forren2008-02-11 16:35:34
There have been cases where changes go unannounced - see Demigod essence loss immunity. Got the forums in an uproar for a few days. Most seem to be, though. I would really like an improved system for players to see the status of their bug.
Krellan2008-02-11 23:34:22
QUOTE(Fain @ Feb 11 2008, 08:42 AM) 485535
This is really (says I, unhelpfully), a common sense issue. Most of the time you'll know if it's a bug or not. If you're not sure, then weigh it up - if the maybe-bug leads to a significant combat or economic advantage, and the uncertainty is getting in the way of the use of your skills/property/credits/gold, then don't feel shy about ISSUEing - that's part of what they're there for. If it isn't, or you think the use of your 'maybe-bug' really doesn't matter all that much anyway, then use your common sense. If it doesn't seem like any sort of abuse, it's probably not, and we won't punish you for a reasonable mistake.
Accidental deletions happen very infrequently - so 999 times out of 1000, the answer is: yes, we got it.


I'm inclined to disagree with this. I'll point to Krellan's shrubbing and I'd post an email that Estarra sent me to show you why I disagree, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to. Basically, in the email it is said that Krellan would've won the Seal of Life anyways. The only reason I did what I did was because I bugged it during the first ascension event. Being something I thought at the time was a bug relating to an Ascension event, I assumed it was important enough to make the fix list. Since it wasn't fixed, I felt it was reasonable for me to assume that it was okay to do.
Acrune2008-02-11 23:44:35
Shiri's initial post is completely correct. With the EXTREME amount of time it takes to fix some bugs, there needs to be a way to tell that it has as least been acknowledged as a bug and is on the way to being fixed, even if it doesn't happen any time soon.
Forren2008-02-11 23:47:51
QUOTE(Krellan @ Feb 11 2008, 06:34 PM) 485613
I'm inclined to disagree with this. I'll point to Krellan's shrubbing and I'd post an email that Estarra sent me to show you why I disagree, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to. Basically, in the email it is said that Krellan would've won the Seal of Life anyways. The only reason I did what I did was because I bugged it during the first ascension event. Being something I thought at the time was a bug relating to an Ascension event, I assumed it was important enough to make the fix list. Since it wasn't fixed, I felt it was reasonable for me to assume that it was okay to do.

Krellan, going to make this simple.

You knew that what you were doing was not intended. Furthermore, you knew that most people did not know it was even possible, and it should not have been possible based on the scenario that was presented for the event. You knew it gave you a huge advantage. You bragged about your bug abuse afterwards, you 1337 life-saver you!

Enjoy the rustling.
Acrune2008-02-12 00:53:14
laugh.gif

Yes, he should have known it was a bug, but it does show a scenario where the theories that Fain provided failed, and why something like what Shiri suggested would be EXTREMELY helpful.
Malarious2008-02-12 02:04:41
QUOTE(Fain @ Feb 11 2008, 09:42 AM) 485535
This is really (says I, unhelpfully), a common sense issue. Most of the time you'll know if it's a bug or not. If you're not sure, then weigh it up - if the maybe-bug leads to a significant combat or economic advantage, and the uncertainty is getting in the way of the use of your skills/property/credits/gold, then don't feel shy about ISSUEing - that's part of what they're there for. If it isn't, or you think the use of your 'maybe-bug' really doesn't matter all that much anyway, then use your common sense. If it doesn't seem like any sort of abuse, it's probably not, and we won't punish you for a reasonable mistake.
Accidental deletions happen very infrequently - so 999 times out of 1000, the answer is: yes, we got it.


As a note, if you ISSUE something as a question it is often answered, and its also a nice way to ask questions on other things!

Fain has also opened the can of worms for the hoard of coming issue questions... bwahahaha.
Daganev2008-02-12 04:50:41
I've always found it odd that you can't see the list of typos and bugs you've reported.