Malarious2008-04-30 14:14:19
Since it was off topic in the racial rebalancing I will report it here as requested.
Ideally how to handle warriors and races:
+Str should have a major factor on damage and not as high of one on wounds
+Dex should have a higher factor on wounds
+Warrior weapons (for which Roark will smite me) should be readdressed such that a high str race with high damage weapons will reliably cause large amounts of damage and dismal wounds. While wounders should tend to do more wounds and less damage than current. AKA formula adjustments.
+Stun needs to play less of a factor. Being able to get a second hit before stun wears off is a huge effect since they didnt get to sip/apply after the first hit. That has more of an influence than it should since its not really something you can fix without changing size.
Yes these would have their own effects, such as aslaran and faeling being good wounders and lower damagers (oh no.. so horrible?) but at the same time tae'dae could look at serious damage kills which not so much expecting to kill off wounds. They COULD build wounds because of the amount of damage, which you would need cure, but it would be smaller than now. As would damage from high dex races. If you want to fix warriors address the formulas and stats that result in extremes in power. Yes loboshigaru and Krokani would make fairly scary warriors under this, which is soemthing that may or may not need to be addressed.
Why do warriors do so well against robes?
+Robes mean they can get really high wounds to get nasty afflictions fast (tendons, pinlegs, slitthroat, etc)
+Only tailors can handle this better than most.. one suggestion has been to make chainmail higher than greatrobes since its non proofable
+If you are stunned you cant stop them as well. Historically the best way to deal with them has been hindering which means less when they instantly writhe or take little to no stun based on their target.
One way to handle this is to stall and try to buy time to heal. However this is much like the inquisition issue, the only way to prevent or help it is to run or stall like mad. You cannot stall so if they pull 2 hits that really hurt you are stuck giivng up your influence to slow them down. If they have to focus more on something and werent as bad then it would be better.
Yes I am a Nihilist, so I can generally hinder loads better than a mage (even a telepath whoring peace and paralysis etc) could. Bards rely on dodge and illusoryself which is actually one of the best ways to tank damage, since it means less direct threat to themselves. Sometimes based on size and opponents spec you could actually be beaten with little else you could do.
Examples:
Stunned to death, grapple whored, mass balance loss stacking, omni prone, etc.
Once we flesh out combat to no longer have auto I wins (which we tend to be working on) and remove the instantly crippled conditions (double hemiplegy every 3s kinda things) then we will be better off. Until then place your suggestions on what can be done and how to handle it.
P.S.
<3 Roark.. still dont hurt me
Ideally how to handle warriors and races:
+Str should have a major factor on damage and not as high of one on wounds
+Dex should have a higher factor on wounds
+Warrior weapons (for which Roark will smite me) should be readdressed such that a high str race with high damage weapons will reliably cause large amounts of damage and dismal wounds. While wounders should tend to do more wounds and less damage than current. AKA formula adjustments.
+Stun needs to play less of a factor. Being able to get a second hit before stun wears off is a huge effect since they didnt get to sip/apply after the first hit. That has more of an influence than it should since its not really something you can fix without changing size.
Yes these would have their own effects, such as aslaran and faeling being good wounders and lower damagers (oh no.. so horrible?) but at the same time tae'dae could look at serious damage kills which not so much expecting to kill off wounds. They COULD build wounds because of the amount of damage, which you would need cure, but it would be smaller than now. As would damage from high dex races. If you want to fix warriors address the formulas and stats that result in extremes in power. Yes loboshigaru and Krokani would make fairly scary warriors under this, which is soemthing that may or may not need to be addressed.
Why do warriors do so well against robes?
+Robes mean they can get really high wounds to get nasty afflictions fast (tendons, pinlegs, slitthroat, etc)
+Only tailors can handle this better than most.. one suggestion has been to make chainmail higher than greatrobes since its non proofable
+If you are stunned you cant stop them as well. Historically the best way to deal with them has been hindering which means less when they instantly writhe or take little to no stun based on their target.
One way to handle this is to stall and try to buy time to heal. However this is much like the inquisition issue, the only way to prevent or help it is to run or stall like mad. You cannot stall so if they pull 2 hits that really hurt you are stuck giivng up your influence to slow them down. If they have to focus more on something and werent as bad then it would be better.
Yes I am a Nihilist, so I can generally hinder loads better than a mage (even a telepath whoring peace and paralysis etc) could. Bards rely on dodge and illusoryself which is actually one of the best ways to tank damage, since it means less direct threat to themselves. Sometimes based on size and opponents spec you could actually be beaten with little else you could do.
Examples:
Stunned to death, grapple whored, mass balance loss stacking, omni prone, etc.
Once we flesh out combat to no longer have auto I wins (which we tend to be working on) and remove the instantly crippled conditions (double hemiplegy every 3s kinda things) then we will be better off. Until then place your suggestions on what can be done and how to handle it.
P.S.
<3 Roark.. still dont hurt me
Unknown2008-04-30 14:30:41
I agree completely on higher wounds/lower damage vs lower wounds/higher damage and basing damage on strength (which it is) and wounds more on dexterity (which they may or may not be already).
How many people have both high strength AND high dexterity? I know that, as an igasho, I have excellent strength (19/20 with minimal effort) and appalling dexterity (9/10, typically).
Doing more damage means more sipping and less applying, which should be what allows us to build up wounds. Now, if someone is doing more wounds and the sipping isn't as necessary, the question then becomes whether or not their wounds make up for the lower damage. Considering that the higher wounds will give you the better afflictions, I'd say that's the trade off right there.
As for stun, most of the complaints seem to come from smaller people (i.e., faelings) who are dominated by larger people (i.e., igasho, titans). Size can be tricky, but I actually make myself smaller to try and get out of entanglements just a little faster. The smaller races will even sometimes make themselves smaller, for that same reason. We'd have to run one or more series of tests on stun times at various sizes to see where the extremes lie before making any real suggestions on how to fix the perceived problems.
How many people have both high strength AND high dexterity? I know that, as an igasho, I have excellent strength (19/20 with minimal effort) and appalling dexterity (9/10, typically).
Doing more damage means more sipping and less applying, which should be what allows us to build up wounds. Now, if someone is doing more wounds and the sipping isn't as necessary, the question then becomes whether or not their wounds make up for the lower damage. Considering that the higher wounds will give you the better afflictions, I'd say that's the trade off right there.
As for stun, most of the complaints seem to come from smaller people (i.e., faelings) who are dominated by larger people (i.e., igasho, titans). Size can be tricky, but I actually make myself smaller to try and get out of entanglements just a little faster. The smaller races will even sometimes make themselves smaller, for that same reason. We'd have to run one or more series of tests on stun times at various sizes to see where the extremes lie before making any real suggestions on how to fix the perceived problems.
Malarious2008-04-30 14:49:03
QUOTE(Zarquan @ Apr 30 2008, 10:30 AM) 507692
I agree completely on higher wounds/lower damage vs lower wounds/higher damage and basing damage on strength (which it is) and wounds more on dexterity (which they may or may not be already).
How many people have both high strength AND high dexterity? I know that, as an igasho, I have excellent strength (19/20 with minimal effort) and appalling dexterity (9/10, typically).
Doing more damage means more sipping and less applying, which should be what allows us to build up wounds. Now, if someone is doing more wounds and the sipping isn't as necessary, the question then becomes whether or not their wounds make up for the lower damage. Considering that the higher wounds will give you the better afflictions, I'd say that's the trade off right there.
As for stun, most of the complaints seem to come from smaller people (i.e., faelings) who are dominated by larger people (i.e., igasho, titans). Size can be tricky, but I actually make myself smaller to try and get out of entanglements just a little faster. The smaller races will even sometimes make themselves smaller, for that same reason. We'd have to run one or more series of tests on stun times at various sizes to see where the extremes lie before making any real suggestions on how to fix the perceived problems.
How many people have both high strength AND high dexterity? I know that, as an igasho, I have excellent strength (19/20 with minimal effort) and appalling dexterity (9/10, typically).
Doing more damage means more sipping and less applying, which should be what allows us to build up wounds. Now, if someone is doing more wounds and the sipping isn't as necessary, the question then becomes whether or not their wounds make up for the lower damage. Considering that the higher wounds will give you the better afflictions, I'd say that's the trade off right there.
As for stun, most of the complaints seem to come from smaller people (i.e., faelings) who are dominated by larger people (i.e., igasho, titans). Size can be tricky, but I actually make myself smaller to try and get out of entanglements just a little faster. The smaller races will even sometimes make themselves smaller, for that same reason. We'd have to run one or more series of tests on stun times at various sizes to see where the extremes lie before making any real suggestions on how to fix the perceived problems.
If you can get to high wounds immediately you can get some better afflictions in aye, instant slitlock isnt as bad if you are taking so little damage that you have time to cure it off. While Damagers would take a bit longer to build up to it.
I think three races have good str and dex (krokani, lobo, and maybe something else).
Stuns are just plain bad sometimes, a speed weapon against someone of even medium size can get hit again before stun wears off.
Desitrus2008-04-30 14:55:49
The only thing dexterity currently does for warriors (not monks) is determine the chance to afflict wounding-level based afflictions. This is why as a dwarf or igasho, even though you get the wounding level, you will often not get the affliction that goes along with it.
Honestly, I'm not sure what exactly Asmodea does for DMP, but I can only hit her (with 20 str and the waraxe) for 1500. She has greatrobes, not splendor. While it would be interesting to see dexterity play a greater role for warriors, it would pretty much be the death of strength races. If stun, and to a lesser extent all forms of (p)rone get nuked, something needs to be done about warrior accuracy and the amount of defenses they need to overcome to connect.
Honestly, I'm not sure what exactly Asmodea does for DMP, but I can only hit her (with 20 str and the waraxe) for 1500. She has greatrobes, not splendor. While it would be interesting to see dexterity play a greater role for warriors, it would pretty much be the death of strength races. If stun, and to a lesser extent all forms of (p)rone get nuked, something needs to be done about warrior accuracy and the amount of defenses they need to overcome to connect.
Daganev2008-04-30 15:08:27
Am I to understand that a "damage warrior" would be able to actually outpace healing health with sipping sparkle and scrolls? If so, how many seconds is reasonable for thier damage to outpace that?
Desitrus2008-04-30 15:11:21
QUOTE(daganev @ Apr 30 2008, 10:08 AM) 507697
Am I to understand that a "damage warrior" would be able to actually outpace healing health with sipping sparkle and scrolls? If so, how many seconds is reasonable for thier damage to outpace that?
This is the flaw in the proposal, obviously. The DPS (damage per second) of a warrior would actually have to increase (insert lol) for that to happen.
Ildaudid2008-04-30 15:33:18
Exactly Desi, and that isn't going to happen.
As for the stunning thing Malarious is referring to, people that do that are specifically taking damage to nothing, and going all for speed. Most of them have runed their weapons, and they are very rare (meaning not everyone can do this)
There is also a certain size threshold where you won't be able to pull it off.
All in all a nihilist with a shield and crucify can end up doing more harm shieldstunning someone than a warrior.
If warriors need these type of changes I really would rather "warriors" big or small be the ones to come up with the resolutions to them. No offense mate, but playing as a warrior is a whole different ballgame than playing as another class. It is not something you just pick up and say ok Imma warrior.... Imma kill people.
Just like I would never say I know what should be changed to balance druids, I wouldn't want non warriors be-boppin in with some ideas that either make things too much or too soft.
As for the stunning thing Malarious is referring to, people that do that are specifically taking damage to nothing, and going all for speed. Most of them have runed their weapons, and they are very rare (meaning not everyone can do this)
There is also a certain size threshold where you won't be able to pull it off.
All in all a nihilist with a shield and crucify can end up doing more harm shieldstunning someone than a warrior.
If warriors need these type of changes I really would rather "warriors" big or small be the ones to come up with the resolutions to them. No offense mate, but playing as a warrior is a whole different ballgame than playing as another class. It is not something you just pick up and say ok Imma warrior.... Imma kill people.
Just like I would never say I know what should be changed to balance druids, I wouldn't want non warriors be-boppin in with some ideas that either make things too much or too soft.
Malarious2008-04-30 16:28:39
QUOTE(daganev @ Apr 30 2008, 11:08 AM) 507697
Am I to understand that a "damage warrior" would be able to actually outpace healing health with sipping sparkle and scrolls? If so, how many seconds is reasonable for thier damage to outpace that?
Good question..
Knight Combo: 3-4s recovery base
Sparkle: 8s recovery
Scroll: 8s recovery
Sip: 4s recovery
So every 8s is 2 sips, 1 sparkle, and 1 scroll.
Should your damage perfectly outpace that? probably not. If people keep up with your damage exactly you stack wounds still. If they use a sip or two to apply then the damage builds.
If you do too much damage then even being healed you could steal deal too much, based on weapons. If you hit ever 3.4 seconds with damage higher than a sip and sparkle you will reliably build health damage over time on top of wounds, just not very much damage. This also assumes you always balance to a person always having all three. At 4s balance to attack with twice the damage level on the weapon you will reliably get a fair bit of damage over a person. All depends on how weapon stats are calculated to decide how the balance is done.
I am also fully open for warriors giving suggestions, so do you have any to fix it? Problem isnt just warrior combat its warrior races. Why have 18 str if it means no real advantage over being a faeling? Thats what we aim to fix. Everyone should have a purpose or the weights need be adjusted.
So give thoughts come come.
EDIT: Nowadays a Nihilist with shieldstun wouldnt do too much, since the crucify would take forever to recover from. Most would escape it first without some sort of lock.
Nother EDIT: Also ildy.. then bring the ideas to the table! Though warrior isnt as easy as swing swing swing swing, I also have a little more familiarity with it than most non warrior guilders, since I have actually looked and studied em a bit. But point was taken, my goal is to fix em I dont care who does it.
Daganev2008-04-30 16:40:23
I think my idea of changing the benifits of forging runes, and changing the benefits of drawdown/nightkiss, and buffing warrior damage in general is probabbly the right direction to go.
It is probabbly better than trying to figure out how to deal with artifacts, and it will actually balance out warrior combat.
If the problem with balancing warriors is "artifact runes" well then, the "non artifcat runes" are probabbly the place to work them out.
Suggested fixes for Forging runes:
Armor runes stay the same.
Gukyur: +2% chance to Critical Hit rate
Duryur: level 1 arm balance speed up.
Rinyur: +3% wound damage (or something that affects wounding but itsn't a copy of current artifact)
Suggested fixes for Drawdown/Nightkiss:
Drawdown - converts 1/4 weapon damage to psychic damage
Nightkisss - converts 1/4 weapon damage to asphyxiation damage
I believe this would prevent issues of certain weapons becoming too strong, and too much of an outlier to be balanced around. i.e. weapons can get a max of +15, not a max of +35
edit: Is there any place that lists all the various types of damage in the game. I just realized I havn't seen one before, and it would probabbly be helpfull.
It is probabbly better than trying to figure out how to deal with artifacts, and it will actually balance out warrior combat.
If the problem with balancing warriors is "artifact runes" well then, the "non artifcat runes" are probabbly the place to work them out.
Suggested fixes for Forging runes:
Armor runes stay the same.
Gukyur: +2% chance to Critical Hit rate
Duryur: level 1 arm balance speed up.
Rinyur: +3% wound damage (or something that affects wounding but itsn't a copy of current artifact)
Suggested fixes for Drawdown/Nightkiss:
Drawdown - converts 1/4 weapon damage to psychic damage
Nightkisss - converts 1/4 weapon damage to asphyxiation damage
I believe this would prevent issues of certain weapons becoming too strong, and too much of an outlier to be balanced around. i.e. weapons can get a max of +15, not a max of +35
edit: Is there any place that lists all the various types of damage in the game. I just realized I havn't seen one before, and it would probabbly be helpfull.
Desitrus2008-04-30 16:44:33
QUOTE(daganev @ Apr 30 2008, 11:40 AM) 507720
I think my idea of changing the benifits of forging runes, and changing the benefits of drawdown/nightkiss, and buffing warrior damage in general is probabbly the right direction to go.
It is probabbly better than trying to figure out how to deal with artifacts, and it will actually balance out warrior combat.
If the problem with balancing warriors is "artifact runes" well then, the "non artifcat runes" are probabbly the place to work them out.
Suggested fixes for Forging runes:
Armor runes stay the same.
Gukyur: +2% chance to Critical Hit rate
Duryur: level 1 arm balance speed up.
Rinyur: +3% wound damage
Suggested fixes for Drawdown/Nightkiss:
Drawdown - converts 1/3 weapon damage to moon magic damage
Nightkisss - converts 1/3 weapon damage to asphyxiation damage
It is probabbly better than trying to figure out how to deal with artifacts, and it will actually balance out warrior combat.
If the problem with balancing warriors is "artifact runes" well then, the "non artifcat runes" are probabbly the place to work them out.
Suggested fixes for Forging runes:
Armor runes stay the same.
Gukyur: +2% chance to Critical Hit rate
Duryur: level 1 arm balance speed up.
Rinyur: +3% wound damage
Suggested fixes for Drawdown/Nightkiss:
Drawdown - converts 1/3 weapon damage to moon magic damage
Nightkisss - converts 1/3 weapon damage to asphyxiation damage
Interesting, but going from free 10's to free ELEMS? That's a bit... much, no? With elems you are at 2/3 elemental penetration? Ow... The forging runes are nice.
Edit: For reference, the waraxe people talk about my damage coming from has only Elems on it.
Daganev2008-04-30 16:50:40
I edited my post, before I saw yours.
+10 runes used to cost 800 credits
Elemental runes cost 700 credits. I think it is fair
Also, if these are put in, then you can balance around it, since it is a commonly available skill.
Also, maybe have lich add poison damage to weapons, and have umm, does sacraments have a aura skill like that, that could add perhaps "drowning" damage?
+10 runes used to cost 800 credits
Elemental runes cost 700 credits. I think it is fair
Also, if these are put in, then you can balance around it, since it is a commonly available skill.Also, maybe have lich add poison damage to weapons, and have umm, does sacraments have a aura skill like that, that could add perhaps "drowning" damage?
Desitrus2008-04-30 16:56:39
Sure, if Sacraments and Necromancy suddenly got weaponaura that grants free elementals. Noone ever really said the CR prices of the two runes weren't skewed based on usefulness, heh. The damage conversion seems to be worth far, far more than 20 damage stat though, really.
Daganev2008-04-30 17:00:46
Read 1/4 damage conversion, or even 1/6th if you think that is more balanced. Also, I am trying to suggest damage types that you can't currently get in artifact form, so that they are different and unique.
But I think the basic suggestion is sound.
But I think the basic suggestion is sound.
Ildaudid2008-04-30 18:08:01
You could also couple nightkiss and drawdown with a +15% magic damage increasing artie to boost the effectiveness of this. Just so you know. I would love to hit people with fire/elect/psychic and boost +15% more damage on top of it.
Daganev2008-04-30 18:11:19
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 30 2008, 11:08 AM) 507742
You could also couple nightkiss and drawdown with a +15% magic damage increasing artie to boost the effectiveness of this. Just so you know. I would love to hit people with fire/elect/psychic and boost +15% more damage on top of it.
Hmm, does anybody do that now? I don't see why they would do with the drawdown/nightkiss addition if they didn't allready do it now.
Ildaudid2008-04-30 18:14:40
QUOTE(daganev @ Apr 30 2008, 02:11 PM) 507744
Hmm, does anybody do that now? I don't see why they would do with the drawdown/nightkiss addition if they didn't allready do it now.
I would. because right now I can have weapons that are over the 463 runing capability, and with that change get a free elemental rune so to speak on it... and use a magic damage increase to top it off without worrying about tempering the weapon to hold a elemental rune.
Ildaudid2008-04-30 19:25:06
QUOTE(Desitrus @ Apr 30 2008, 02:13 PM) 507746
Your dexterity is under a Minor Blessing of the Domotheos of Chaos.
Your mana is under a Lesser Blessing of the Domotheos of Chaos.
You are under a Minor Blessing of the Domotheos of War.
You are under a Lesser Blessing of the Domotheos of War.
You are under a Major Blessing of the Domotheos of War.
You are under a Major Blessing of the Domotheos of Life.
That's a merian paladin atm.
Your mana is under a Lesser Blessing of the Domotheos of Chaos.
You are under a Minor Blessing of the Domotheos of War.
You are under a Lesser Blessing of the Domotheos of War.
You are under a Major Blessing of the Domotheos of War.
You are under a Major Blessing of the Domotheos of Life.
That's a merian paladin atm.
Ok I moved this here....
Since people were going holy cow about Geb and Desi's attacks....
I think it should be noted that Domoths may play a small amount in damage. So trying to mess with knights should also have all domoths taken into account when tests are done. (Domoths that might matter that is. aka anything that would cause more damage, give more resistances etc)
Personally. I think Nightkiss and DDown are the only reasons for warriors to go Moon/Night... (Granted I am not familiar with Crow, but I would choose Stag over Moon if it didn't have such a nice trans skill)
I wouldn't want to see yet another nerfing of warrior skills brought on by fear and/or people who may lack the skill in defeating some warriors.
That said from my time here this is what I can remember happening to warriors:
CODE
o Warriors were mainly damage warriors, causing damage that would make the newer players tremble. There were BMs and BCs
o Precision was added as was wounding. Damage was nerfed. Making warriors primarily wounding only. There was a very small few damage still (like 3 warriors)
o Weapons stats were nerfed so one could not obtain such high end weapons. Pre-nerf stats still existed
o Warrior power attacks such as Haymaker/Assault were nerfed to not be able to do wounds like behead. Due to the influx of 1-2 assault beheads by artie-runed warriors.
o Weight stats were introduced, making it so high con/str was not obtainable because of the wounds/damage "warriors" did. It was blanketed to cover all orgs.
o There was a large warrior summit (which I think was right before/after the power costing attacks change thing) which was brought about to help warriors out. Now if I remember right, we were told that there would be some nerfs but there would be some rewards later on down the road.
o About a year or more later.... AL/PBs started to get the upgrades they so desperately needed. Also getting an opponent to critical wounds ensured a 100% affliction rate of the venom applied to weapon. This made it so PBs/ALs were able to get the venoms to stick quicker, but BCs/BMs could in a longer fight double afflict with 100% accuracy constantly when wounds in the respected area were at critical (This has been still debated on over people who think it should be double venoms for PBs/ALs as well... but again this is not the time or place)
o Somehow someone was upset that a few warriors using pre-nerf weapons were able to give out more damage than a mage (aka 2k+) in on combo. Pre-nerfed weapons were removed from the game.... Causing the loss of such beautiful creations as Diamante's broadswords which were forged by Haji... etc.
o A bug was "discovered" by a friend of mine who I still like to kick in the ass now and then so I wont say their name. Which seemed to give boons to ALs/PBs when they used artifact runes. Artifact runes were "corrected", although they were actually nerfed. But since it was determined to be a bug (as in the admin did not plan for 2 handed weapons to obtain certain %'s in wounding etc... but the help file was unclear in the matter) 2handers with these runes could get a refund on them if they asked (if you asked politely too :wub: Estarra) even though it was a bug and they did not have to do so.
o Scaling of stats comes into play.... making low str/dex warriors with better advantages not very far off in wounds/damage of high str/dex warriors with not as many advantages.
o Precision was added as was wounding. Damage was nerfed. Making warriors primarily wounding only. There was a very small few damage still (like 3 warriors)
o Weapons stats were nerfed so one could not obtain such high end weapons. Pre-nerf stats still existed
o Warrior power attacks such as Haymaker/Assault were nerfed to not be able to do wounds like behead. Due to the influx of 1-2 assault beheads by artie-runed warriors.
o Weight stats were introduced, making it so high con/str was not obtainable because of the wounds/damage "warriors" did. It was blanketed to cover all orgs.
o There was a large warrior summit (which I think was right before/after the power costing attacks change thing) which was brought about to help warriors out. Now if I remember right, we were told that there would be some nerfs but there would be some rewards later on down the road.
o About a year or more later.... AL/PBs started to get the upgrades they so desperately needed. Also getting an opponent to critical wounds ensured a 100% affliction rate of the venom applied to weapon. This made it so PBs/ALs were able to get the venoms to stick quicker, but BCs/BMs could in a longer fight double afflict with 100% accuracy constantly when wounds in the respected area were at critical (This has been still debated on over people who think it should be double venoms for PBs/ALs as well... but again this is not the time or place)
o Somehow someone was upset that a few warriors using pre-nerf weapons were able to give out more damage than a mage (aka 2k+) in on combo. Pre-nerfed weapons were removed from the game.... Causing the loss of such beautiful creations as Diamante's broadswords which were forged by Haji... etc.
o A bug was "discovered" by a friend of mine who I still like to kick in the ass now and then so I wont say their name. Which seemed to give boons to ALs/PBs when they used artifact runes. Artifact runes were "corrected", although they were actually nerfed. But since it was determined to be a bug (as in the admin did not plan for 2 handed weapons to obtain certain %'s in wounding etc... but the help file was unclear in the matter) 2handers with these runes could get a refund on them if they asked (if you asked politely too :wub: Estarra) even though it was a bug and they did not have to do so.
o Scaling of stats comes into play.... making low str/dex warriors with better advantages not very far off in wounds/damage of high str/dex warriors with not as many advantages.
And...... I think that about covers it.... that I can remember.
Now this little timeline is not accurate on dates or anything like that. Xenthos/Ixion/Daevos/Daganev and others will know more about the whole timeframe when PBs ALs didnt exist and the pre-nerf forging era. I am just tryin to give a small timeline of things.
This does not reflect all the nerfs/upgrades etc. But it does show one thing. Warriors tend to swing from one side of the pendulem to the other.... Roark has stated before that balancing out warriors is really a tricky thing to do because of what goes into having to balance it out.
I really just hope that if we are going back to the "drawing board" again. It is not because a few people cannot beat some warriors who may have more skill than them. Just please don't make that folly.
Here is a quote that I want you all to think about, including the administration and especially those who complain about warriors and know that they may not be skilled enough to take on the warrior they are complaining about:
"The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent" - The Fundamentals of Chess 1883
Unknown2008-04-30 19:59:02
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 30 2008, 02:08 PM) 507742
You could also couple nightkiss and drawdown with a +15% magic damage increasing artie to boost the effectiveness of this. Just so you know. I would love to hit people with fire/elect/psychic and boost +15% more damage on top of it.
Not sure if this is true. Damage from a magical source is not the same as magic damage. Warriors do damage from a physical source, even if some of that damage can be fire based or what have you.
Geb2008-04-30 21:05:51
QUOTE(Malarious @ Apr 30 2008, 03:14 PM) 507686
Since it was off topic in the racial rebalancing I will report it here as requested.
Ideally how to handle warriors and races:
+Str should have a major factor on damage and not as high of one on wounds
Strength already does have more of an effect on damage than it does on wounds, from what I have esperienced. I gain more of a percentage change in damage from an additional point in strength, than I gain percentage wise in wounds.
+Dex should have a higher factor on wounds
Dex has no effect on how many wounds you give per hit.
+Warrior weapons (for which Roark will smite me) should be readdressed such that a high str race with high damage weapons will reliably cause large amounts of damage and dismal wounds. While wounders should tend to do more wounds and less damage than current. AKA formula adjustments.
(This is already the case for the most part. When I use my claymore, I do a lot of damage but very little wounds on even a person with robes. Still, the damage can be mitigated a lot with the use of good proofed robes, trans resilience and combat, a proofed cloak and coat, effective use of rebounding, using sparkle, sip healing, and reading a healing scroll, plus good use of stancing and parrying. Those things I mentioned have costs though, and it seems people do not want to pay the costs to acquire all of those things, but want to be made equal to those people who have paid the cost.)
+Stun needs to play less of a factor. Being able to get a second hit before stun wears off is a huge effect since they didnt get to sip/apply after the first hit. That has more of an influence than it should since its not really something you can fix without changing size.
I agree stun is a problem. It is the only affliction that can stop any sort of action, and thus is the only one that can really give a good player problems even if the player does everything right. Still it can be dealt with if it is not something insane in length, but a lot of time people are not able to control that aspect of stun.
Yes these would have their own effects, such as aslaran and faeling being good wounders and lower damagers (oh no.. so horrible?) but at the same time tae'dae could look at serious damage kills which not so much expecting to kill off wounds. They COULD build wounds because of the amount of damage, which you would need cure, but it would be smaller than now. As would damage from high dex races. If you want to fix warriors address the formulas and stats that result in extremes in power. Yes loboshigaru and Krokani would make fairly scary warriors under this, which is soemthing that may or may not need to be addressed.
Why do warriors do so well against robes?
+Robes mean they can get really high wounds to get nasty afflictions fast (tendons, pinlegs, slitthroat, etc)
True, lower cutting and blunt stats makes it easier to gain heavier afflictions fast. What is not mentioned though is that warriors do have more obstacles to their offense than any other archetype. Also, warriors have far less passive offense than other classes. So if you slow a warrior down, more than likely you are stopping his entire offense. A player that knows how to slow a warrior down, while maintaining his/her own offense can usually do quite well against a warrior.
+Only tailors can handle this better than most.. one suggestion has been to make chainmail higher than greatrobes since its non proofable
That is not entirely true. Asmodea is not a Tailor, and yet she is still able to deal with even some of the top so-called warriors very well. It comes from her using her skills well, having a decent system, making sure she has plenty of proofed clothing, and that she is transcendant in resilience and combat. See taking the time to acquire the skills and items I have mentioned before does help with ones success. You mentioned that Forren was tanky in your original post. He was tanky because he took the time to acquire what was needed to be tanky. He also knew how to hinder when the time was right. Oh, and healing spring only heals 5% damage every 10 seconds, and a pittance of wounds each tick too. Besides that, he was able to defeat many warriors outside of his demesne.
Warriors also do well because a lot of people do not invest into getting transcendent resilience & combat, the people have pretty crappy systems , and only a certain number of people know how to effectively use their classes native abilities to slow down warriors.
+If you are stunned you cant stop them as well. Historically the best way to deal with them has been hindering which means less when they instantly writhe or take little to no stun based on their target.
One way to handle this is to stall and try to buy time to heal. However this is much like the inquisition issue, the only way to prevent or help it is to run or stall like mad. You cannot stall so if they pull 2 hits that really hurt you are stuck giivng up your influence to slow them down. If they have to focus more on something and werent as bad then it would be better.
Yes I am a Nihilist, so I can generally hinder loads better than a mage (even a telepath whoring peace and paralysis etc) could. Bards rely on dodge and illusoryself which is actually one of the best ways to tank damage, since it means less direct threat to themselves. Sometimes based on size and opponents spec you could actually be beaten with little else you could do.
Let's call a spade a spade. What you are saying is size and specs with stun can have a drastic effect on a person's survival. I agree that this is the case, and the problem is stun's duration versus size itself and how easy it is to get on demand in my opinion. I personally feel stun should not have a varying effect based on the size of the target, but then again I believe entangles should not have a varying effect based on target size too. I know the effect size has on abilities will not be eliminated, so all that can be done is to either reduce the effect size has on those abilities, or to remove those abilities that changes in size can overpower. Still, we have to be willing to do that for all of them in either case, because I can mention plenty of other abilities that the size of person messes them over combat wise. One good example is being a large size and trying to tumble away from an insta-kill, or being small size and easily tumbling away from one.
Examples:
Stunned to death, grapple whored, mass balance loss stacking, omni prone, etc.
Once we flesh out combat to no longer have auto I wins (which we tend to be working on) and remove the instantly crippled conditions (double hemiplegy every 3s kinda things) then we will be better off. Until then place your suggestions on what can be done and how to handle it.
I agree there are some balance problems that need to be addressed, but I do not agree with your method of addressing them. Besides the fact that every suggestion you have made concerning your own archetype has been to upgrade it, there is also the fact that you do not want to consider all of the other components that go into warrior balancing. I have mentioned multiple times people who have performed very well against top tier warriors who wear robes, each time you either ignore the point that was made or respond like what the person was able to accomplish was unique and could not be duplicated by another. You have to consider all of the variables, and a few of those are skill, effort spent to acquire the actual skills to do well, effort used to create or purchase an effective system to heal well, and effort spent to acquire all of the healing and resistance items needed to survive.
P.S.
<3 Roark.. still dont hurt me
Ideally how to handle warriors and races:
+Str should have a major factor on damage and not as high of one on wounds
Strength already does have more of an effect on damage than it does on wounds, from what I have esperienced. I gain more of a percentage change in damage from an additional point in strength, than I gain percentage wise in wounds.
+Dex should have a higher factor on wounds
Dex has no effect on how many wounds you give per hit.
+Warrior weapons (for which Roark will smite me) should be readdressed such that a high str race with high damage weapons will reliably cause large amounts of damage and dismal wounds. While wounders should tend to do more wounds and less damage than current. AKA formula adjustments.
(This is already the case for the most part. When I use my claymore, I do a lot of damage but very little wounds on even a person with robes. Still, the damage can be mitigated a lot with the use of good proofed robes, trans resilience and combat, a proofed cloak and coat, effective use of rebounding, using sparkle, sip healing, and reading a healing scroll, plus good use of stancing and parrying. Those things I mentioned have costs though, and it seems people do not want to pay the costs to acquire all of those things, but want to be made equal to those people who have paid the cost
+Stun needs to play less of a factor. Being able to get a second hit before stun wears off is a huge effect since they didnt get to sip/apply after the first hit. That has more of an influence than it should since its not really something you can fix without changing size.
I agree stun is a problem. It is the only affliction that can stop any sort of action, and thus is the only one that can really give a good player problems even if the player does everything right. Still it can be dealt with if it is not something insane in length, but a lot of time people are not able to control that aspect of stun.
Yes these would have their own effects, such as aslaran and faeling being good wounders and lower damagers (oh no.. so horrible?) but at the same time tae'dae could look at serious damage kills which not so much expecting to kill off wounds. They COULD build wounds because of the amount of damage, which you would need cure, but it would be smaller than now. As would damage from high dex races. If you want to fix warriors address the formulas and stats that result in extremes in power. Yes loboshigaru and Krokani would make fairly scary warriors under this, which is soemthing that may or may not need to be addressed.
Why do warriors do so well against robes?
+Robes mean they can get really high wounds to get nasty afflictions fast (tendons, pinlegs, slitthroat, etc)
True, lower cutting and blunt stats makes it easier to gain heavier afflictions fast. What is not mentioned though is that warriors do have more obstacles to their offense than any other archetype. Also, warriors have far less passive offense than other classes. So if you slow a warrior down, more than likely you are stopping his entire offense. A player that knows how to slow a warrior down, while maintaining his/her own offense can usually do quite well against a warrior.
+Only tailors can handle this better than most.. one suggestion has been to make chainmail higher than greatrobes since its non proofable
That is not entirely true. Asmodea is not a Tailor, and yet she is still able to deal with even some of the top so-called warriors very well. It comes from her using her skills well, having a decent system, making sure she has plenty of proofed clothing, and that she is transcendant in resilience and combat. See taking the time to acquire the skills and items I have mentioned before does help with ones success. You mentioned that Forren was tanky in your original post. He was tanky because he took the time to acquire what was needed to be tanky. He also knew how to hinder when the time was right. Oh, and healing spring only heals 5% damage every 10 seconds, and a pittance of wounds each tick too. Besides that, he was able to defeat many warriors outside of his demesne.
Warriors also do well because a lot of people do not invest into getting transcendent resilience & combat, the people have pretty crappy systems , and only a certain number of people know how to effectively use their classes native abilities to slow down warriors.
+If you are stunned you cant stop them as well. Historically the best way to deal with them has been hindering which means less when they instantly writhe or take little to no stun based on their target.
One way to handle this is to stall and try to buy time to heal. However this is much like the inquisition issue, the only way to prevent or help it is to run or stall like mad. You cannot stall so if they pull 2 hits that really hurt you are stuck giivng up your influence to slow them down. If they have to focus more on something and werent as bad then it would be better.
Yes I am a Nihilist, so I can generally hinder loads better than a mage (even a telepath whoring peace and paralysis etc) could. Bards rely on dodge and illusoryself which is actually one of the best ways to tank damage, since it means less direct threat to themselves. Sometimes based on size and opponents spec you could actually be beaten with little else you could do.
Let's call a spade a spade. What you are saying is size and specs with stun can have a drastic effect on a person's survival. I agree that this is the case, and the problem is stun's duration versus size itself and how easy it is to get on demand in my opinion. I personally feel stun should not have a varying effect based on the size of the target, but then again I believe entangles should not have a varying effect based on target size too. I know the effect size has on abilities will not be eliminated, so all that can be done is to either reduce the effect size has on those abilities, or to remove those abilities that changes in size can overpower. Still, we have to be willing to do that for all of them in either case, because I can mention plenty of other abilities that the size of person messes them over combat wise. One good example is being a large size and trying to tumble away from an insta-kill, or being small size and easily tumbling away from one.
Examples:
Stunned to death, grapple whored, mass balance loss stacking, omni prone, etc.
Once we flesh out combat to no longer have auto I wins (which we tend to be working on) and remove the instantly crippled conditions (double hemiplegy every 3s kinda things) then we will be better off. Until then place your suggestions on what can be done and how to handle it.
I agree there are some balance problems that need to be addressed, but I do not agree with your method of addressing them. Besides the fact that every suggestion you have made concerning your own archetype has been to upgrade it, there is also the fact that you do not want to consider all of the other components that go into warrior balancing. I have mentioned multiple times people who have performed very well against top tier warriors who wear robes, each time you either ignore the point that was made or respond like what the person was able to accomplish was unique and could not be duplicated by another. You have to consider all of the variables, and a few of those are skill, effort spent to acquire the actual skills to do well, effort used to create or purchase an effective system to heal well, and effort spent to acquire all of the healing and resistance items needed to survive.
P.S.
<3 Roark.. still dont hurt me
Ok, now that I have responded to some of your points, I will add a few ideas on how I think the problem can be resolved.
1. I think magic should be changed to a general resistance skill that covers magic, electric, fire, and cold resists. Once the person transcends this skill-set, the person would have 15% reduction in damage to all of those damage types. This change would be fair for two reasons. One is that a person can acquire a skill to reduce the effect elemental runes have on their person (damage wise). The second effect is that it would require that person to spend credits to transcend the skill-set for its greatest effect; therefore the person has to pay a price in credits to reduce the damage that a person paid a price in credits to increase. With the addition of proofs, a person transcendent in the new skill can have a straight resistance of 25-35% against the elemental aspect of a warriors attack. That is equal to having a 70 on robes versus cutting/blunt, but this is versus elemental attacks. Keep in mind that Desitrus has pointed out that he has no stat runes on his waraxe, giving more credence to my claim that elemental runes are the main culprit in boosting damage.
2. I agree that stun needs to be looked at. I would suggest that stun not be able to go beyond a 2 second max for axlords and a 1 second max for bonecrushers/monks, regardless of the race. Stun is the most powerful affliction there is in my opinion. Being able to delay the curing and actions of a person for a solid 2 seconds for axelords and 1 second for bonecrushers/monks in my opinion is enough time to get ahead, if the attacker takes good advantage of it. I believe other concessions will also have to be made concerning skills that entangle too, so that the advantage does not wholly go to those who use passive and active entanglements to hinder warriors/monks.
3. There is already a mechanizim that would allow warriors to concentrate on going for wounds, speed, defense, and damage. Each of them are called in order of effect mentioned earlier concentrated, lightning, defensive, and aggressive. Each combatstyle already have built into them benefits and drawbacks which I will show below:
a. Concentrated - Choosing a concentrated fighting style will increase your chance to wound an opponent, while decreasing the amount of damage of your attacks.
b. Lightning- Choosing a lightning fighting style will increase the speed of your attacks, while decreasing the amount of damage of your attacks.
c. Aggressive- Choosing an aggressive fighting style will lessen the effectiveness of your combat stance while increasing the power of your attacks.
d. Choosing a defensive fighting style will increase the effectiveness of your combat stance while decreasing the effectiveness of your attacks.
Now there is a problem with these combatstyle, and the problem is that only two are actually worth using (Lightning and Defensive). What I suggest is first adjust these styles to be more focused on their aspect of combat boost (i.e. more effective in what they boost), while also having a greater effect in what they are suppose to cause a deficiency in. First, I suggest changing their effects a little bit to make them more balanced for overall warrior combat. So here we go:
a. Concentrated- Would not be changed in effect, but in magnitude. The increase in wounding would actually become significant (+10%), while the decrease in damage would do likewise (-%10).
b. Lightning- I would suggest boosting the effect this has from having a 10% boost in speed, to a 15% boost. I would also suggest having it reduce damage by 7.5% and adding in a component that reduces the wounding done by 7.5%.
c. Aggressive- I would make this the reverse of the Concentrated combatstyle, such that it would boost damage by 10% while decreasing wounds by 10%.
d. Defensive – Would keep the same power it has against other warriors, but it would also receive %10 resistance (not dmp) against elemental and magic attacks (not physical). It would take a hit in damage (5%), speed (5%) and wounding (5%)
Well, above are my suggested changes that I hope would help balance out warriors, without hamstringing them.
Daganev2008-04-30 21:07:55
Warriors were basically balanced until bards and telepaths came out and things got all wacky again, IMO.
I still like my suggestion
I still like my suggestion
