Summary: Flare/flare fas/fas is no longer possible without extreme luck with song timers. Should the skills be changed to reflect this? Or is there another way to disrupt them enough as to make this possible? Note that without flare/flare or fas/fas the glamours skillset is in effect nullified

Testing and justification

First of all a disclaimer - I will not pretend to be some ridiculously competant fighter. Also, long post!

As a mugwump harbinger my main strategy was: Blanknote, flare/flare, fascinate, web, hynopticpattern, rainbow pattern..etc, with octave a barbs. My offense was due to the speed enabling the double flare for afterimage before they could eat faeleaf.

Now since the changes, and as a human I encounter this:

As you can see my problem is that I can't get past his faeleaf curing. Now I tried with my song effects and I had some success - namely timing with shadowrave hitting and herb balence used to cure haemophilia. However this could be easily stopped by prioitising faeleaf curing - still effectivley cutting out my glamours skillset.



Now, as I see it, it seems rather simple to stop the flare/flare happening- especially as you cosider ashai was not fighting back. Also by the time afterimage is up I'm most likely dead or locked up myself - praying for shadowrave to hit. Now I've been thinking of other ways to hinder them but I've been struggling.

Go straight for octave -they gust or run and power is wasted
Perfect fifth - keeps them in, but lenghty process and one missed blanknote scuppers the strategy
Acrobatics - forwardflip and such forth - possible but unlikely to work with normal balence times - the same goes for a basic web without first prepping with fascination.

Whilst yes, you could say I should just learn to count and time like Druids and Guardians-but consider they have more hindering passives running in the former and in the latter do not have their skillset nullified completely by eating one herb.

What I've asking for is mainly advice- can anyone think of a better way into order to get afterimage up? Or can the skills be altered in some way as to make them function as they were designed without making them OP.

(phew that was long)

/hijack

Naughty!! You had Crow Targetted at first!

Heh to help me catch crow shadows!

/re-rail

Had one more thought - whore reflections until the song effects hit perfectly - but this is annoying and won't work against all classes.
(I've also added a summary at the top for those who don't want to read the whole post)

Yes, I've noticed that this particular aspect of Glamourist bard combat has indeed been affected by the changes to equilibrium bonuses and how they work in conjunction to our skills, though I've reached some varying conclusions from your own testing. Using the equilibrium bonuses of a mugwump (level 3), merian (level 1), and a trill (no bonus), I've tested and found (or at least estimated) that as a mugwump, I Flare at about 2.2 seconds, as a merian, 2.6-2.7 seconds, and as a trill, I Flared at a consistent 2.8 seconds. Sixth sense goes up at around 2.5 seconds after eating the herb...meaning that as any race with a Flare slower than 2.5 seconds, all of my Flares would be stopped by faeleaf being eaten immediately. Only mugwumps, from what I've seen and tested, were capable in using the skill effectively and I believe that this should not be the case. How it is that you didn't manage it as a mugwump with song effects up like BarghestBlues which disrupts herb balance is puzzling, but when I tried it as a mugwump against a normal lucidian with no song effects, I managed to do the combo just fine, but never again as any other race.

The most viable method I've found to counteract this would be a change to the timing of sixth sense itself rather than going through each of the skills separately, making them faster (and since I doubt that'd go over well, since this is pretty fast already), I've already planned to include it to the next envoy report within my slot to extend the timing it takes for sixth sense to go up from 2.5 seconds to perhaps a full 3-3.5 seconds. In this way, not only would the skills be changed so that mugwumps would be removed as the only 'viable' class to pull the standard Flare/Flare and extend it to a majority of the races offered by the game without making it so that the much faster mugwump speed won't overwhelm the target.

Oh, mind, the proposed sixth sense change won't be going in until the end of May/beginning of June since the envoy report for April just finished up. I dislike the fact that those bards who are active combatants suffer either as a mugwump with their racial disadvantages or as a non-mugwump with their lack of access to these skills for a full IRL month, but this is how things have played out, and I'm trying the best I can to balance bard combat out as best as I could. Sorry.

I was a human in the testing, sorry should have made that more clear, only mentioned it once I think.
As for the song effects -yeah, it's just a case of waiting for them to tick with shadowrave I think and hoping for the best

Oh! I thought you were a mugwump...yeah, you definitely won't be managing it as a non-mugwump with how things are currently with sixth sense. Hopefully though, this will get changed soon to make it so that most of the races would be viable as a Glamourist rather than just keeping it solely to mugwumps.

Not only are the timings an issue with bard combat, requiring insane speed, but the damage is an issue too. How is a bard supposed to take down someone who recovers more health from a sip than damage dealt. That's the problem I have. No matter how hindered the target is, if I'm only dealing 1k (actually, it seems to be 932 right now) and they're sipping 800-1.5k, I'm screwed. None of the Glamours or Music afflictions will kill them. The only method would be an insta kill.

As it is, every other class has a method of dealing passive damage/afflictions along with their other attacks. Yes, bards can too, but theirs are unpredictable and easily hindered. Some classes can deal two types of damage, either damage and wounds or damage and afflictions, in a single attack. And then there are monks and knights, dealing damage, wounding, and afflictions at the same time. You have wiccans and guardians who attack mana and health, and they have entities to follow them. You have mages and druids that have demesnes and their tertiary skills that can be difficult to block (psionics). Some of them have defenses that are easily put up and render most of their attacks useless (key word: "most", not all). Protection defends against demesnes and faeleaf defends against weapons. However, some demesne effects will go through protection, and faeleaf is easily bypassed. If there's any sympathy from me, it's for mages/druids who have to dissolve, just like bards have to blanknote. Although, mages/druids have tertiary abilities that aren't as easily blocked like Glamours is. Wiccans and guardians deal insane amounts of afflictions, but that's how their combat was set up to be.

Bards... Well, they have their songs and Glamours, and their opponents have earwort and faeleaf. Out of all the classes, bards are the only class to have two common defenses that can completely render their main combat skills useless, requiring them to sacrifice valuable time to strip those defenses. Bards are unable to strip the defenses and attack at the same time like two other classes. They can not attack with their tertiary skill of Glamours if the second defense is up; they have to strip the sixthsense defense first.

Also, I don't know about the other bard guilds and the usefulness of their specializations, but Starhymn only has a handful of useful skills that amount to anything. Crusadercanto is fire damage, and not much at that. Celestode is dealing 83 or so extra damage for every bit of damage dealt (166 extra damage for a minorsecond with crusadercanto attached)... not sure if it's working on mobs (it triggers, but it doesn't seem to lessen the amount of attacks it takes to slay anything). Princessfarewell is a power hog for brief blackout and quicksilver stripping (it should take 3p if it manages to aeon, not if it just blackouts). The healing songs are fairly nice, acting like an extra enchantment.

I believe the member counts of the bard guilds is an excellent reflection that bard combat is hurting... a lot. There's a reason everyone flocked to the monk guilds, and it turned out they were OP.

If wiccans/guardians are meant to give lots of afflictions, knights to give lots of damage and afflictions (yes, an affliction or more on every hit is considered lots) and wounding, monks to give lots and lots of stunning/afflictions/wounds/ruptures, and mages/druids to give a combination or damage and afflictions... just what are bards meant to do? Sure, they can give lots of afflictions- the same handful over and over and over. They can buff allies or hinder enemies with their songs (even if they aren't too noticable). They can't deal significant amounts of damage (and it's all magical damage). Even a full discordantchord is easily healed (yes, I tested it, it's nothing worth 8p and the high effort needed to get all those afflictions to stick, considering how hard it is to keep the person in the same spot with perfectfifth, is just... wrong). So, just what are bards meant for?

No sympathy. We have to deal with love potions too. And I have no idea how one "blocks" glamours other than faeleaf. I think the power cost of some bard skills should be lowered, but other than that you are fine. Bards are still the heaviest hitters in the game when it comes to damage. Especially cantors.

Prove it. Simply prove that they are the heaviest hitters in the game, Celina. Go on, prove it.

I'm sorry but knights are the heaviest hitters, especially if they're hitting at 1.5k+ per hit. Monks are next, assuming the wounds build up enough. Mages are also nasty, especially Geomancers who have damage types that don't have common defenses (and yes, I take more damage from Geomancers than I do Aquamancers).

Sixthsense makes Glamours useless. Sure, you can strip it for no power with a pattern, but if you can't hit them with flare before they eat faeleaf again, you're screwed. It's a matter of speed, as those above have pointed out. And yeah, we deal with love potion too.

And Cantors being the strongest of the bard guilds? Maybe, by a fraction. Crusadercanto (fire damage) + Celestode (extra 83 damage for me) = trivial damage. Our minorsecond hits just as much as the other bard guilds if those two starhymns aren't factored in. Oh, and we have to be able to hear (no truehearing for us!) and not be captivated by another bard in order to benefit from our own songs.

Broke your post up to different parts so that I can address each accordingly.

1) Firstly, bards are not the only class who rely heavily in timing...all classes do. It's part of being a combatant - you don't just bash at someone sporadically, hoping that they would die, you have to plan and work around the time constraints presented to you, so trying to make it seem like bards should be exempt from this is just silly. Nextly, that's why we have the new DiscordantChord...last I checked, if prepped properly, it can take a decent chunk out of someone with large amounts of health. Of course I still need to test this out, but one on one, the DiscordantChord fix should be a viable way to deal a substantial amount of damage to someone's health. (This is, of course, provided that it hasn't changed since my last test when it first got changed.)

2) I'm..confused. Are you saying that bards..don't have a means to accompany your offense? If so, that's what we have songs for...? If you're not getting your song effects to work properly, ask a Cantor combatant how to go about propagating the earache effect. As for Glamours being blocked, that's why we have the afterimage from Flare. If you're still unhappy with this, I'd reconsider your appreciation for passives such as your song effects, because the potential damage available there is nowhere near as limited as mage/druids who are stuck to the land they meld onto whereas we are plenty mobile.

3) ^See my previous answer about learning how to keep up afterimage and earache.

4) Issues with the abilities of your song effects should be brought up with your envoy who actually has the power to change the effects of your skills within limits.

5) I think I've noted this already somewhere before, but just in case I haven't, let me reiterate it. Guild membership != Guild combat prowess. Just because a guild is unpopular does not mean that their entire archetype is broken. Of course we need tweaks as all the other classes do, but we're far from hurting so badly that you should think that the only reason there are not many other bards around is because of the combat mechanic of bards.

6) Bards become what you make of them...some could be specifically made to be complete supporters to their allies and hinderers to their enemies, while others can go all out to be a force in and of themselves. This holds true for any other archetype, it all just depends on what you choose to do or not do that would define what exactly a bard does for you.

Oops, to spare you folk my double posting since I got ninja'd, here's my response to the latest thing:



I've already detailed the problems surrounding sixth sense and Glamours way up there in my first post on this thread. Again, if you've issues with Starhymn mechanics, bring it up with your envoy instead of despairing over it!

Jeez it's late..don't mind me if my post just sounded weird. Tweaked now to hopefully make more sense.

1.) Discordantchord is still useless. I tested it on the test server and it did average damage. A full powered discordantchord did roughly 1517 damage to me and used up 8p, making it something that can not be used often. I say roughly because I played it at myself, so manabarbs and egovice hit me too. Strangely, powerspikes did not and a debate against myself did a little over 1400 damage with egovice. Oddly enough, a minorsixth under the same circumstances did 1548 damage, but egovice and manabarbs hit twice. (Yes, I've already spoken to the Cantor envoy about this.. even bugged it too just in case the damage was a little buggy) I'm not arguing that bards shouldn't have to time their attacks. I'm arguing that the attacks, even if timed properly, do not amount to much unless they are out-pacing the opponent's curing. My minorsecond, even if timed perfectly can not out-pace health sipping by most races. Also, bard attacks have prerequisites for those attacks to do any significant damage, and it's overly hard to get those afflictions to stick, considering any competent combatant will escape the perfectfifth and octave.

2.) So it's completely fine for two herbs to completely nerf two entire skillsets? Once again, it all comes down to speed. If flare can not be placed quick enough the target WILL eat faeleaf again, thus requiring another pattern. The same applies for earwort. You can blanknote to your heart/s content, but there is absolutely nothing stopping the target from replacing truehearing once their earache is up. The blanknote affliction lasts about 6sec before truehearing can be replaced. Truehearing is an immediate defense. That's a blanknote every 6sec. I'm fine with that, considering the blanknote eq is about 1-2sec. My issue is with the immediate truehearing making perfectfifth absolutely useless. Lately, I've noticed quite a few combatants don't even bother using earwort, and even without the truehearing, the damage done from any of our skills is simply not enough to dent the target, and that's what I'm getting at. You can weave all the colourbursts and patterns you want, but neither will kill the target, just hinder their attacks somewhat. Unless magic and the specialization are transed, the damage is pathetic at best. Mages and druids have tertiary abilities that aren't blocked by a single herb. Actually, they aren't blocked very well at all. Psi shield for psionics, which takes a massive amount of eq to put up. Not to mention that their demesne effects are by far better than the song effects since they can time them to all hit at once, something I've yet to see a bard pull off.

3.) Can you name another class that has to repeatedly strip defenses in order to make a single attack hit? Knights can attack and raze at the same time. Monks can too.

4.) Most ideas get shot down, so I'm not too fond of the envoy system. Seems a bit biased to me.

5.) Yes, and everyone ran to monks because their guilds are so uber kewl. There's a reason the bard guilds lack members, and it's definitely not because of the guilds themselves. It's the skillsets, and until someone can finally prove that wrong I'm sticking to it.

6.) Again, I disagree. Bards are horrible 1 vs 1. Are there any active top tier bard combatants left after all the nerfs? Preferably ones that don't go after those lesser than them...

Zacc, pardon me, what are you doing just attacking with minorsecond? It's mainly for me a bashing attack, or for when I've minorsixthed all their mana/ego out for barbs. It's like expecting a druid to win with just cudgel

1) I can't remember where, but I -think- (think, mind, not sure if this is the right person) that Hyrtakos dug up from a log or statement somewhere that outlined that testing damage on yourself isn't a viable way to test how the damage works on other targets.

2) Do I find it fine that there are actual defenses to our skills? Yes, that's why we also have skills to delay putting up these defenses. I've already mentioned and outlined the specific problem surrounding Glamours and sixth sense, why you feel the need to continually bring it up is something I find..odd, since it's already an agreed upon problem that could easily be fixed. What else I find odd is that you, as a Cantor, is finding that the damage you do is 'minimal'. Synchronized with sensitivity from JustChorale, a powered CrusaderCanto, boosted damage from CelestOde and a karmic blessing or two, your minorsecond could scale pretty quickly in terms of damage...why you're not pulling this off is something I don't know.

3) Mage/Druidic lust rejection is something they need to constantly do as much as we do. Going around defenses is an integral part of combat...why it is that you want to negate this just so that you'd have a hinder-free offense is another thing I don't understand in a game that's trying hard to keep folk happy and fair.

4) You can hold your personal opinions of the envoy system all you want, but they're the easiest route to getting a skill changed if the suggestion is fair...staying away from a way to get your suggestions heard is kinda self-defeating if you want to fix your skills but don't want to go to the person who could.

5) Yes, there's a reason bard guild lack members and I personally think it's because of what people believe bard guilds to be. It's a new player's own perceptions that influence them to choose not to be a bard...since new players very, very rarely even know what it is to expect from combat, let alone bard specializations, I highly doubt that they choose not to go bard because of the skill mechanics but instead, because of what they think bards do...which is sing and be creative. So yes, I'd think it's the guild themselves and the things initially expected from them first which influences a person to not choose them rather than the combat of a bard in as different a place as Lusternia.

6) Depends on how you define top-tier, really. Are there those who just go about rampaging through the game with no care, decimating all they come across? No, and I'd hope not since I rather dislike potential griefers. Are there those who know their skills and are working to handle them better? I'd hope so, elsewise we'd have a class with no one to point out what works or not.

Most every guild is having its problems right now. Most of the top tier combatants are demigod knights it seems. Monks are gaining strength and mages are recovering some of their influence. Bards have alot of power they just arent used for it. Whats better than a guild who can support but also convert over to handling survival against 2+ people? Ignoring the 10K health demigods

1.) I don't see why it wouldn't work if testing it on yourself. I test minorsecond on myself and it does the same damage as it does to any test subject with like defenses. Either way, if discordantchord is based on max health, then it's <54.67% damage for 8p and the extreme unlikeliness that the target will hold still (and not say gust the bard out of octave) long enough to get achromatic aura, egovice, manabarbs, and powerspikes to stick.

2.) See, my point. Discordantchord is useless because the target can move on a whim, since they're willing to endure the songs and tones in order to eat earwort to break perfectfifth and immediately move. From design, it looks as though bards need to have certain afflictions stick, hence the octave + perfectfifth + bardic afflictions + discordantchord/minorsixth. That's the only way to make the afflictions stick. If the target can just walk out and heal, requiring the bard to either move (terminating the octave) or stand in place, then it's quite pointless to even bother. Powerspikes even requires power to use. It takes a total of 16p for the first discordantchord (3p octave, 3p perfectfifth, 2p powerspikes, 8p discordantchord), the rest takes 8p if the target hasn't moved and cured or moved the bard. There's just no way to get anyone to stay in place in order to do what bards were intended to do.

3.) No entire class relies on sleeping (Spiritsingers are bards too) alone. I'd gladly pay an extra power cost to be able to attack AND strip a defense like knights do. Wiccans seem to have it easy with the aeon.

4.) But there's still that class bias and buddy-buddy stuff. I don't think the other classes should have any say on another class's envoy suggestions. The admin should be the neutral party that decides whether something is acceptable or not.

5.) I'd like to see Narsrim come back and do it again. I'm willing to bet, that if he pulls it off, it's due to demigod/titan status... unless it's a simple sumersault + soulless. Nihilists is a single guild, not four guilds. Celestines seems to be doing bad too, but they've still managed to stay at a higher rank than the majority of the bard guilds.

6.) I've seen Narsrim fight during pre-nerf. I've fought him myself, and there wasn't any wonder why he did well. However, now is an entirely different situation. Almost all skills that proved to be of any use in the past have been nerfed to hell. Alright, I don't know why I even bother restating this over and over and over and over. Cantors are SLIGHTLY better in damage than the other three bard guilds. This is due to a small <500 damage boost. I'm sorry to inform you, but 200 extra damage is not going to win a fight in any reasonable timeframe unless the target only has 200 health left.

For those who seem to know so much about bard combat and have so much input on it, by all means please roll up an alt and try it out. Don't base it on past experiences since many of those skills have been nerfed and people know how to cure bard attacks now. Let me know how it goes. Is the bard alt just as effective as your main character's class? What problems did you have? Are bards exactly what you said they were? I believe you'll find it quite different when experiencing it first hand.

@ Xiel:
1.) I just tested it again on someone else. It did a total of 1172 damage, 47.93% of their max health. That's even less than what it did to me, but the mine I used on myself had egovice and manabarbs hit too, so that explains the extra damage.

2.) Now you're adding elements that aren't class specific. It's not fair to include karmic blessings, seeing as how they require a lot of karma, which means a lot of bashing/influencing/questing and have nothing to do with the class. To balance a class on karmic blessings... bad. What other class requires karmic blessings to do average damage? And timing your attacks to a particular tick of a particular song effect isn't very reliable. Justchorale can not be changed to suit the user's needs. You have to wait for it, giving the opponent a good chance to heal. But I'm sure you already knew this, since you've used it. And please, see my above response to Malarious- #6. Celestode does NOT give a noticable boost to damage. I'm sorry, but 83 damage is NOT going to dent anyone. Crusadercanto does FIRE damage, and a very small bit at that (roughly 255 at full strength). Once again, that's not a significant amount, and yes, Crusadercanto is a delayed effect.

3.) I don't care that defenses exist. I care that not every class is as hindered as bards are with faeleaf and earwort. We agree on the sixthsense issue, yes. However, what other class has to worry about such things? None. As has been stated, two of them can attack and raze at the same time (with an extra power cost, which I've be more than willing to pay too). The others only have to worry about things such as avoid, reflection, and shielding. What do bards have to deal with? The same as everyone PLUS faeleaf and earwort. And by going around defenses, I assume you mean being able to bypass them, thus getting the attack and removing the defense at the same time. Two words for you: "knights" and "monks".

4.) Considering something as trivial as milestones on other planes was shot down, or so I was told, I don't see any point at all. It's clearly biased to nerf bards, as has been the popular intent for how long now? God forbid bards are actually on par with the other classes or at least have utility abilities to make up for their lack of combat prowess.

5.) Well, at least the bard skills reflect their "artistic" nature... they aren't that good in combat.

6.) Not working on improving their skills, but already know how and do (be it defending or raiding) it. There's a difference between working on something and already having it finished. So far, there are no top tier bard combatants. There are a handful that may come close, but I highly doubt they'd last long against the real top combatants in the game. The only tops ones that existed have all left to other guilds or gone inactive. One of the best ones left because of impending nerfs at the time. Maybe there's a reason why no one has figured out how to utilize bard abilities as effectively as the other class's abilities (read: competent combatants)... and I'm sure it's not because bard abilities are so incredibly complex that up until now no one has mastered them.

My goodness, I don't see why I even bother to try to explain things to someone who is clearly determined to perceive something negatively. Firstly, whoever said that I'm trying to balance things out around karmic blessings? I'm saying that if you want to maximize your damage output, get some, but if you don't, then content yourself with the damage that's already pretty much average (maybe more, maybe less, I've not exactly tested a non-buffed minorsecond with a non-buffed any other skill). Also, I've already stated numerous times before, timing affects each class...if you're not taking the opportunities to time your attacks and boost them up as strongly as you could, why are you going to go around declaiming that the world is unfair and biased against bards when you don't take the initiative to bring them to their max? Nextly, you ask what class has to worry about the defenses we have to face? Ask yourself if you find yourself having to worry about insomnia, rebounding, metawake and disfigurement, because those are the things others have to face that you don't have to as a bard. The classes are built differently...why it is that you want everything to be the same and imbalanced is something I don't quite understand from someone who wants to be a combatant. And now I think I've explained it as best as I could to you - learn your skills and boost them up from the norm, elsewise, crying out to make it so that bards should do insane damage without any effort at all would not help you at all since a vast majority of the populace wants to try and keep things as balanced as we could.

Oh, and I forget, why it is that I think people have gone warrior to boost up their damage? It's because, I believe, warriors have been one of the classes that have been out the longest and have actually had envoys work and tweak with the class to tailor it into what it is today. Bards are relatively new as compared to those earlier classes, and trying to compare us to them when we've not had near the same opportunity nor active envoys to do so is another thing I find odd.

Because even at their max (all that's achievable without outside influences) they still do sub par damage. There's really nothing to time that will benefit at all, unless you sit there doing nothing to ensure that the random affliction from Glamours or a song effect triggers your attack.. and then there's no insurance that the buffed attack's damage will build up quick enough to amount to anything, considering the afflictions needed to buff the attack are RANDOM. Recklessness and minorsecond? Good luck executing that on a regular basis. I believe a bard with trans music and magic does about 1.2k (I do less than 1k with transed music... I hardly consider that average), right? Unless minorseconding every chance, the damage will NOT build up to a significant level. Given that bards do not have a mana or ego insta kill or affliction that requires health balance, it's far too easy to sit there curing the damage done.. unless the person isn't recovering enough from sipping (those with low health or racial disadvantages). So yes, I do know my skills. And Yes, I do boost them to the best of my skillset's ability. However, the damage is still not comparable to other classes. As I've stated before, relying on the bardic afflictions is futile. Perfectfifth is laughable if enemies can sit in your song (1 room mobile demesne that is rendered useless by an herb and doesn't last as long as a mage/druid demesne) without truehearing, only eating earwort when hit with perfectfifth. Perfectfifth, enemy eats earwort, enemy moves, enemy eats horehound, enemy comes back in. Or, if the person has the ability: perfectfifth, enemy forces bard out of room and cures.

Question for you, Xiel. What abilities do you use for combat? How much damage do you do? Are you able to stand toe-to-toe with most combatants and inflict a meaningful amount of damage? Are they experienced combatants? Are you relying on racial advantages/disadvantages? If you had to give a specific combination to use for a bard, what would it be and how effective is it?

Then the solution is simple: focus on the new classes and not on the older ones. Continuously tweaking the older ones to make them better leaves the new ones in the dust (except monks who didn't get hit with the nerf stick quite as hard as bards did).

I will just interject. You have no idea how to test damage Zacc, let me explain this.

-Damage is calculated by checking its formula, whethers its % or base. Damage resistance is then checked to determine the actual amount dealt (so 75% of max health damage can then be reduced by applicable resists.


Lets see other random points.. if you want your guild to change, go head and post your ideas here. You want to lose the damage output, anor song, blindness, kneel, and such? Sure what would you replace it with? Hell you want to remove deaf and/or blind? Sure, just have a way to balance it around that. Its not what you want its if you can make it work out that way.

Honestly Zacc if you had the credits for me to make a cantor I would do so. In some cases I would rather try to keep up deaf, but thats partly because I can ghost off your insta.

Monks are getting tweaked, hopefully guardians will be, bards have been downgraded a few times which should open them for new upgrades. We need everyone on a working level, and always remember... if all skill is equal, there wont be a winner in a fight. Theoretically its provable to that extent in fact.

Bards are not horrible, they are not weak, what they are is misused and maldesigned (let me explain that one). For instance.. I would adore the cacophonys song that lets them give dominate if it didnt take eq to ORDER the person. Then its dominate every 10s, which isnt too powerful against a person without eq/bal but that can have use. Cantors could use a change to do more damage? Sure if thats what you want the whole guild focus to be. Look at harbingers they made manabarbs a kill condition (double mana loss, bleeding to cause clotting) which means the normal drain from their song does double the damage of before while also draining a persons mana rather effectively. I wont go into all kinds of changes, because while I love to come up with new skills and Ideas I dont expect them to be implemented generally.

I would go a bard under a couple things
-Adjust song effects to move focus to ego, mana, power, or something (like harbingers are). So their whole offense isnt based on something curable in an instant (all bards seem to be moving away from attrition kills more so).
-Give cacophony a mana or ego based kill (even if you need replace threnody or something), as this would help with super high health targets.
-If possible, make dominate not use eq (nice for utility in some cases).

The shift should help with the alternative kill condition. While the song is the best way to take super tanks down its not all that reliable. A big problem with bards is all the power use to stick things, if there was a power cost to stick something like 2p after the aff I think it would be a bit better long as it didnt work on everything. That way you could see manabarbs or egovice or powerspikes making a real appearance but that could easily be overpowered.

Anyway I am done since I didnt really reply to most any topics above this time I dont think.

P.S. I will really make a cantor and use it if you have the credits for music/spec, acrobatics, and glamours (though maze and maybe deadly pattern can be passed), and some discipline. (somersault will cover escapes).

EDIT: HA you brought up another kill condition too. Thats part of why I love Nihilist, could use damage on squishys and under certain circumstances but could also use wrack on high health lowered mana targets.

I'm a Spiritsinger..so I use my Spiritsinger abilities? I deal enough damage to manage a damage kill even when I'm not built to pump out damage as Cantors are, and since I've got a reliable system I can survive long enough to run if I have to? And since I don't pick on new fighters, I'd say yes, they're experienced combatants. I'm an Elfen Demigod, get what you will from that. It depends on the bard specialization. I'm not a Cantor, so the best I could do is speculate what would work best since I don't use Starhymn, so I'd suggest learning from someone who knows how to fight as one rather than asking a Wildarrane user.

As for that last comment, we've four envoys for bards who are working for bards...I can't very well tell the other envoys what to tweak since their own classes need tweaks too. So my suggestion is to work with your envoy about the things you find problematic and learn to work with your skills rather than letting your ineptitude get the best of you.

A few artied damage warriors aside, bards win for damage-per-second, and Cantors beat the other bards. Now, I know you wouldn't try a pure cosmicfire kill, or a pure cudgel kill, or a pure staff kill, or a pure moonburst kill, so why are you surprised when pure minorsecond stops working when your target hits ~5k max health? Most people don't have the luxury of straight damage kills past 3k health.

Bards who have come before you manage with the skills you have just fine. Bards have taken much needed nerfs, but you'll find that the core abilities, like perfectfifth, were left untouched. There are bards trying to give you advice. Rather than try to find holes in what everyone except you knows works, go out, spar, and try to find ways to make it work. Post logs. Push yourself. Pull a Nezha. Do something besides cry.