How does advancement in an order's ranks usually work? Is it the accepted norm that orders have set "requirements" for each stage? Or is there a list of "favorable activities" that will greatly increase your chances of being advanced? Or are there no requirements, and everything is determined by the god?

I ask because it seems to me that an order with requirements is odd because a) it's just like a guild, or at least the first few ranks of it, and it doesn't seem to measure "faithfulness"...

That being said, what is the point of having advancement tasks in any organization? I can understand some of the basic requirements that test survival (to make sure guildmembers will stay alive), and requirements that follow a guild's RP (ie composing a song if you're a bard), but what about other ones? Namely:
-Writing a book/treatise on related philosophy
-Giving lectures/sermons/other forms of public presentation
-Anything involving a guild shop, or guild service (helping out with the work load is understandable, but other than that?)
-Collecting X amount of power, essence, gold, etc.

Some requirements help players learn about the extent of things they can do, and those I agree with. But others just seem to say "ok, instead of doing what you may enjoy in the game, you have to instead devote your time to doing project X, which you probably wouldn't think of doing otherwise". There's no "punishment" per se for not doing a set of requirements, but then the person is deprived of the same range of powers and abilities that another person, who spends all his time fulfilling requirements instead of doing something else, might have.

Opinions? (Don't forget about my original point about orders!)

I believe it is so that leaders don't really need to think so much about things such as promotion. I see rank 3's, those people know how to meld. I see rank 5's they're probably in some position of authority... or will be soon.

EDIT: oh and the rest are generally rank 19, because for some odd reason the hartstone leadership never remains there for long with few exceptions.

Part of it is that some people like to be goal-orientated. So if you just give them a vague "tries hard" requirement they don't like it. Provided you continue to favour people just for getting involved, optional tasks can only do good things.

It totally depends on the Order. I'm sure most have requirements in some form or fashion, but I've been promoted into both Morg's and Fain's order without any requirements. Offerings matter. How you RP. Your dialogue with the divine. There are many things that can happen that will result in order ranks

In terms of Eventru's order, there's different reasons for having fluffy tasks to do. (also I'm sorry this post contains so many 'I's...) One, I was basically given a blank slate and told to do something with it, with very little guidance or advice, and VERY little help until all spire heads were chosen. And two, I've obviously never 'designed' an order... so the task was slightly daunting and extremely difficult, despite the 4 other people who were involved.

It's not really meant to "prepare" you for anything. We assume that anyone who gets into the order proper is going to be a full member of their guild. They should know how to survive. It is more of a test of loyalty and faith. All the requirements are optional. Each rank is given a rather large list of order priv goodies, so I don't think anyone should feel left out if one task takes them a while. So basically the point of them is to help the order. We need gold for an order temple, order items, and for other things that we'd like to do. We want to collect teachings and books to gain perspective and to help new members and their ideas, and to add it to a library (which will be placed in said temple). We need essence especially because Eventru is a new God and essence is very important for giving tfs and zapping people and doing generally fun things. All the tasks that are listed are there for a reason, and are subject to change once the order is settled.

So, in comparison to other orders I've been in (in achaea and also terentia's order), eventru's order members get it pretty easy and also good. They have very clear tasks and expectations, and will be rewarded for doing them. They won't be randomly bumped up ranks whenever the God in question realizes who they are and that they like them. They won't remain one rank forever because of vague outlines of what to do. If you have found yourself to have completed all the tasks you want to, then it's time to play the waiting game of getting into the inner circle, but only then. Eventru is the only person who can pick who gets in and who doesn't.

Also, you get hefty order privs right as you enter the order proper. The only thing you basically don't get to do is withdraw money from the coffers or use some of the more expensive shrine privs. Trust me, once the order is set, all members will be very lavishly spoiled.

I can assure you that when I was looking over each task in every rank I had made sure that I have done it or something similar (obviously I have never given a sermon on just Eventru or written books relating his virtues to the supernals and such... not yet, anyway). It's not just the inner circle people saying 'well we will just give them really hard tasks to do so no one will do them.' Overall we don't expect perfection, we just expect an effort. Each task listed is something, at one point, they have done themselves. And they will get immensely easier since I am going to do my best to make it possible to hit two birds with one stone in regards to tasks.

If you/Zalandrus feels some of these tasks are just plain retarded, then by all means, talk to Aison! If you have some suggestions I'd love to hear them. That is why you were initially chosen to be in the order before it was opened. To help shape it, to offer suggestions, to say, 'Hey. This is stupid. Change it.'

So, really, overall, orders are however the god wants them. I made a list of tasks to do with no objections from him. I tried to divide each sect up so at least one appealed to each person, and although you might not like doing some of the tasks, you can always talk to the spire heads about an alternative thing you can do. Or you can just tough it out.

I have been in orders where you pretty much kissed a lot of ass to get advanced. I never thought that was fun, and often frustrating because most of your effort was overlooked. I would much rather take 5-7 ig years to do 3 tasks and be rewarded for it than sit around waiting for a divine to notice me, decide they liked me, and bump me up a rank. And even then my ORDER PRIVS would look pretty pathetic.

I hope that answered your question. And remember, you can always talk to Aison, bring up concerns. I'm not heartless, I promise. I will listen .

Many things to say in reply to that, but I'll only pose one:

Doesn't it feel like, because you have requirements, that it guarantees people's advancement? For instance, a person could be an absolute jerk, but then donate X essence, give a decent sermon, and do whatever else have you, and essentially rise.

All the orders I've been in throughout IRE have been without requirements. Yes, they were basically like how you described, waiting for a god to notice you, but then again, I never really tried "hard" to get noticed (ie write a book, offer like mad, donate like gold grows on trees, etc.). But ultimately, it did make me feel more "faithful". I'm just not quite sure if organizing a fundraiser for 35k gold, or holding a leadership position for 5 years, etc. will do that.

I can see the utility of a lot of requirements for the order, but the vast majority of the rest seem more for "personal growth." Honestly, given the short amount of time I have now for Lusternia as a whole, I'm not going to be heavily motivated to engage in any of these long-term projects...perhaps somebody else with a lot of free time will though.

The way I see it, it doesn't matter if you're a jerk or not. Someone is going to think you're a jerk while someone else will think you're a really nice guy. If you put in the time and effort to offer gold and essence and help the order in general out, then you deserve some rewards for it. You can only go so far with a bad attitude, but it's kind of unfair to judge people on that basis. Not everyone is friendly and happy and nice and all that good stuff.

I don't know if you were in Terentia's order but she did have a set of requirements. I am pretty sure Aison completed a good majority of them, save maybe two or three, and sat at ORsomething years. Aison had some order privs for a while, but that was when mag raided every night at 3 am and aison was a newbie and could use the shrine powers to help get rid of raiders. She was then stripped of every order priv she had because of some stupid event she wasn't involved in, and after that the only thing she could do was order privs and listofferings summary, despite years of service to T.

When making up eventru's order, that is generally something I wanted to avoid. Order tasks are tasks to do when your character essentially has nothing else to do. Guild stuff is over with, you're CR6, and you decide it's time to join an order and show your faith. You're given more tasks, but none of them are very difficult. You could bash up or use your trade to get 35k and donate it yourself. You can donate 5k at a time. You can make a deal with the spire head. The order tasks are there to help the order, and are subject to change. I think Eventru's temple is going to cost somewhere around 10 million gold, furniture and special goodies aside, hence why it gets hefty after a while.

And... just like I said, you can talk to Aison. See if the tasks can't be changed. But I'm not just going to toss them out, especially after all that work and effort, just because a few other orders don't have requirements for advancing.

I've always thought requirements should be...slim, to say the least.

Like, From what I remember, Lyreth's order, when he was around, was way laid back. It was have fun, and when you've been around long enough, and not pissed him off, you would get a bone thrown to you.

He had a few tasks that would be "Recommendations" that never really got written down, because he left before we could get fully, truly established, but things like "Submit some designs involving Lyreth" or "Write a poem showing your devotion." They weren't requirements, they were suggestions to prove your loyalty. I think that's how it should be

Piss on ranks, first things that orders should do is make the divine fix those stupid statues and totems to not be order tuneable... The only things that should and would feasably be tuneable to an order would be other order's shrines.

That is the very first thing I would worry about concerning orders. As it stands there is no way for order members to spread out across the basing.... Terentian followers (and I mean true order followers not loyalists) in Magnagora... Viravain order members spreading into Serenwilde, secretly preaching and inducting Sereners who feel that Vira is a better god than the obsolete Charune or something....

You know how much more interesting things could be if order members were not hit by totems or statues.... I mean 99.99% of the time if you tune a statue to NO CELEST... that would take care of Terentians. The secret Terentian followers in Magnagora would not attack Magnagorans, they are not there to kill Mags with force, but to build a larger Terentia following inside of Mag... And same goes for Fain in Celest... etc. etc. etc

That was so off topic it made me laugh.

I support removing Orders from Statues, it just seems...arbitrary.

Also, someone get Aison and Eventru some cactus weed, turn the order into a lounge!

It's definitely an issue of "different strokes for different folks". I'm very much a fan of a stricter sense of a structure (though a list of "options" vs "mandated" requirements is fine). I've always found orders without structure to foster a (reasonable or not) feeling of favouritism.

And at the end of the day, it's still Eventru's order - if he feels like someone deserves an orderrank boost even though they didn't sing a song about how they look like a teapot, there's fiery death waiting for any order member who thinks that's not His decision!

Well, not fiery death. Just lots of near-death fiery situations.

It made sense for Lyreth's order to be like that (even if there had been enough time to get it going), because of his RP.

Perhaps it also makes sense, to some degree, for Eventru's order to be like this (being first circle, having a very organized order). But, my question is, is it really ultimately "fun" to have requirements?

This isn't just about Eventru's order, although that's what made me think of all of this. It's about the idea of these kinds of requirements in this kind of game.

Sowwy, I had to say it... and hope the divine would see how silly it is that they are so centrally located and cant span out like all other "cults/orders/religions" across the basin... like the do across the world.

but I got a so I did my job!!

back!

I've always considered it to be in line with guild advancements etcetera.

Personally, I could care less if there were advancements and giving everyone OH position and yelling out "FLIEGENDEKINDERSCHIESSE" while doing the Turkey Curse at the nearest cabbage.

T'would a boring order make, though, I think.

At least, once we run out of children.

I think the order requirements should reflect on the Divine. If the Divine is very ordered and enjoys conflict (not just killing others but also internal contests or goals) then the order requirements should be related to that. If the Divine is very relaxed and laid back then it makes sense to have no real goals set.

At the end of the day though if you clearly work for a Divine's interest you should advance, as after all it is up to Them not some mortal.

Maze death you mean. >: (

I like people being jerks in my order. After all, my tenets are hatred, greed and conflict. Real machiavellian scheming is the way to get ahead - or it's supposed to be. Forums aside, it's surprisingly hard to get players to be nasty to each other.

-jots down notes-

All hail the wise and mighty Fain.

-Steals Thoros' pen-

Can I be in the Order now?