This is a thread NOT to gripe about the avenger system but rather to constructively determine if there are any loopholes and how to fix them. If the posts aren't constructive, they will be deleted.

I would love an option along the lines of PK SUPER CAREFUL. This would prevent you from defending someone who DECLARED. Even better would be if it would walk the chain and prevent you from defending if anyone you defended was defending someone who declared. I.E. With super careful on you should be prevented from ever having status gained on you from defending.

-People ganking bashers in enemyable territory, like gorgogs, merians, arthar't, monks, etc. I think nothing but the most consistent of RP should let players do this. Otherwise, there are people like Kilbis who meld the gorgogs caves, then waits for the next basher to come along and kill them for easy, statusfree xp.

Possible solution: Change the way attacking enemied people in that non-org controlled territory works, make it so you have to declare unless you've got a special designation. What I mean is, perhaps we should introduce an influence ability called...uh..."Guardian (?)" that gives you the status of "defender" for that particular area. You do this to that area's leader and it should cost a hefty amount gold, possibly even karma to get this status. What this gives you is the ability to do what is currently possible to this day: attack enemied people in that territory without having to declare and get no status. This designation should also probably carry with it an upkeep fee of gold/karma, failure to do this results in a revoking of guardian status as well as an increased cost to get said status again for x IC years. Naturally, bashing the denizens you're a guardian of results in immediate revoking as well in addition to enemying.



Mindfield removes status, it probably shouldn't do that.

I like this idea. It provides a medium for actual roleplayed conflict choices, while at least attaching a cost to it, which should cut down on people killing other people just because they can. The cost should be subatantial and meaningful, perhaps working like a sort of reverse of the parley system.

You pay them to protect them? Sounds like some sort of bad Tom Sawyer scam.

"Greetings Mighty Sir Tervic! While we may be more than happy to give you the title of Superawesome Protector of Us All, we are in dire need of funds in order to help support the families of our dearly departed! If you could please give us x amount of gold for it, it'd be appreciated!"

Alternatively, we can employ the same RP rationale that DL's/Supernals/Avatars have when we give them gold for amnesty: None.

It's just a convenience of mechanics.

Avenger is fine almost everywhere except when it comes to enemy territory. Enemy territory is where most of the buggy stuff and loopholes happen. I'd like to test it more thoroughly to confirm my thoughts on it before I say anything, but it's really quite annoying with exp loss.

Summoning someone while standing at the top of a mountain and letting them die from fall damage still doesn't award Avenger status to the summoner. I got banned for a week for doing it, and when I saw this thread I thought I'd test it out. Since summoning is an aggressive action, would it be possible to do something that makes summoning someone "declare" them, and therefore allow the unfortunate player to gain Suspect and/or Vengeance?

I vote for that, but it ONLY works if you kill someone enemied to that area,IE Tervic defends merians, I am out slaying them (( Enemied)) , he catches me and kills me

Also, if are defending, say, merians, you should be able to see if somone is enemied to that org in their honours.

On a side note.. would it be possible to see if somone is enemied to a racial org, if you are that race?
For instance. Someone is a Merian, and checks someone elses honors. Sees "Is enemied to Merians"
Now, this MAY or MAY NOT count for the guardian requirement, but just an idea

I like Sojiro's idea. I support it for the presidency. But I'd also like it to show up in HONORS, like so:

Dudeo, the Consummate Igasho (Male Igasho)
He is...
...
...
...
He is known to be a protector of Hhuhur Village.
Type HONORS DUDEO FULL to see his eight billion special honors.

And like Xenthos said - the payment can easily be framed as paying for defenses, or food, or what have you.

Boy, everyone hated that idea last time it was proposed.

RE making killing in enemy areas harder

Just to play devils advocate for a second here...

What is the RP reason the Avenger ignores enemy areas? I always assumed it was something like, well you choose to kill other sentients so why should I bother to stop others from killing you? Now this is changed to be what, you choose to kill other sentients but because the person attacking you did not get the murdered peoples seal of approval I will not let them attack you?

I think there is nothing wrong about being required to go out of your way to advance your character if you wish to do so risk free from any PvP interaction. There are many areas still fully protected by the Avenger, if you choose to do PvE activities in a PvP area I think you should learn to deal with the consequences.

Adding a new complex system on top of the basic enemy mechanics will do nothing to stop the people you are calling griefiers. They will just go out and spend the gold to gain the protector status and then go back to killing anyone who shows up. In fact now you have given them a clear cut reason for why they should kill anyone at all that hunts in a given area.

If the game needs more gold sinks then I suppose this is one option but I personally think that this will do nothing to stop "greifing".

I remember. I'm still against it. I believe you should only get a free kill on someone if they are enemied to an org you are IN. If I'm a Magnagoran, and a Serenwilder I hate is enemied to the Merians, I could go and become a Protector of the Merians just to kill them for free.

To fix that sort of bad RP, you'd have to code it so only certain people could become protectors. Then how is that different from making Merians New Celest territory, or Hifarae Seren territory?

No, this idea is just another excuse to get a free PK kill.

Loopholes can happen anywhere Krellan. There is one that requires a few defenders. If you are defending someone who is defending someone who has status on someone else. You can end up being a "bully" to some person you didn't even know. Then the sad and shameful thing is that even Demigods run and use Avenger on people.

I will tell you one nice thing about the Bellator Clan:
(Bellator) Forren says "Hey Ild, you have vengeance on me."
(Bellator) Ildaudid says "No shite!, Muahaha! Meet me at Aetherplex and I will kick you"

I think everyone in that clan has what we all call "common respect" for the other players. No matter how much Desitrus kicks my ass somewhere he knows that I won't avenger him. And if I though about doing it, it would be discussed before even making my way to the top of the Mt.




That has nothing to do with avenger so it should not be included, that is just a simple tactic to remove those without scale. Narsrim and I have used it alot especially if you are raiding. If Narsrim were to summon Thoros while he was scaled, and Thoros was leading 10 people, Narsrim would be considered taking advantage of the situation. Thoros would also probably trigger to lose his entourage. Its so easily coded to lose your ents or to shield, so I doubt Avenger should ever be considered in this. Either shield yourself if you don't have scale, move away or lose your people following you to make sure they live and kill the summoner.



Aye this sounds good. If Merians where say influencable like the villages, or if they were just given to Celest, With Shallach given to Mag, etc etc. And if only people from those orgs were capable of getting defender status it sounds like it might help alot with it.

I liked Soji's idea, I think to influence the leader should be difficult, and work kind of like amnesty though. If you get it, it would never be permanent but you would randomly end up with it for 1-12 IG months. And making it cost say 5-20k for even trying to influence them should be nice. That way if it is random, you spend 20k and only get 1month Defender status. It makes it so there is also a risk involved to defend that area.

Brief round of devil's advocate (completely my own opinion folks):

Magnagora is trying to raise Cthoglogg. Celest is killing all the illithoid - Magnagora can either A) spend 'x' amount of gold per person to let them defend or hope Celest stops. Visa versa in near any situation that involves prime conflict without the Administration stepping in to declare free pk on an area. I think you'd all become extremely frustrated with it, in the end.

Perhaps add another tag. It can be added or removed once an IG year, and once you do it, you are open PK to everyone else with the tag. You still get avenger status for attacking people without the tag, but people without the tag don't need to declare you. It's basically a way of stating 'Hey, Avechna, I can take care of myself.' Make it so you can't turn the tag on until level 60, and make it so raiding instantly turns the tag on, but only for 6 RL days.

Maybe i'm too tired to realize this is a bad idea. If it is a bad one, ignore me

Make UV a place called "sub-prime" and let them defend/attack freely. Making UV a "prime" area was a bad move in the first place so either making it something "sub-prime" with some avenger advantages (which is the worst case) Or by making UV considered a conglutable area would cancel out any problems you forsee there. Conglut in UV should have been implemented long ago. It would make people more apt to defend and try the quests in the first place.

Ildy, list precisely every loophole you know so we can fix this. Alternatively, PM Estarra instead.

I have to sit with about 10 people to test it and they need to be willing to die a little, but yeah if we can get a group to get the right amount of defenders needed to bypass it I don't mind helping. It would probably be better to have a bunch of liches helping me though, since they can get suspect and not have to pray (although they too will lose some exp)

Its there Krellan, but it comes up only in the mass group situations and some people know how to do it right (if they choose to) but it is also done by accident alot. This leaves some people with avenger status on others and they have no clue how. The problem with this is that these people are sometimes told by their CLs to use it, or they decide to use it themselves and you get things like that one guy who had what 7 or 17 avengers hit him?? That musta sucked.

Oh yeah melding rooms and such, Avenger does some wierd things when it comes to a mage/druid and his/her demense. That should be looked at too, if an enemy comes into your demesne it should not auto give them suspect on you. I mean you could never keep up a demesne on prime areas if it continues that way

Really, don't PM poor Estarra for stuff that has open threads like this. Post in the relevant threads, you're far more likely to get responses/opinions noticed.