Over the last year or so - most spectacularly in Glomdoring, though you've seen it elsewhere (anywhere remember the big war between Terentia and Morgfyre?) - you've seen the appearance of an administrative policy working its way down into the laws and practices of Lusternia's organizations. This policy is divine neutrality - to put it simply, that 'order and city/commune affairs should not mix', that gods do not run organizations and Their affairs should not unduly impact those of their organisations.

This is, of course, a legal fiction - a sort of concept we've all agreed (in one way or another) to try to adhere to despite the fact we know it will never really happen. Inevitably, the wishes and comments of Nocht and Viravain are going to carry great weight in Glomdoring. When Morgfyre speaks, Magnagora will listen, and Terentia just plain scares the out of everyone in Celest.

Dunno about those Seren divine. Who are they again?

I just want to get a little discussion going on this. To what extent do you all see what I'm seeing? To what extent do you think this idea holds sway vis a vis a more old-fashioned hand-in-hand arrangement? Thoughts? Complaints? Lolcats?

I agree this is the case, though I disagree that there was some kind of written rule that the divine were neutral. The players who run the city can choose the pantheon for that city. if a given divine is annoying them they could, in theory, kick that divine out.

I have no idea if this has ever been done in lusternia, I have seen it happen in achaea before though (admittedly a long time ago).

That said an org can obviously not afford to piss off every divine, but each org has at least two active divine at the moment so they could in theory afford to piss off one of them.

This almost never happens though because the org leaders are often split between the followers of the major patrons. The patrons also clearly make an effort to influence org policy to match their own outlook and work to discourage those who go against it. If you really want to move against a patron you probably need another patrons direct support to pull it off (that and some major popularity with the general player population of your org).

No they can't. Not even in theory. The consulate is inviolate.

So... where did we all agree to adhere to that anyways? It's one of those things that Estarra came out strongly against for a month or two, despite the fact that it kept happening throughout that time period in all four organizations, and then she backed off. It's been going strong since then. See: Lisaera disfavouring Xiel for not protecting the poor little Elf-folk. Morgfyre backing Munsia's entrance to Magnagora. Etc, etc.

In fact, the only time I can think of an organization not really doing it was during the time of the last Viravain when, due to certain pressures, she kept contradicting herself every 24 hours. "Do this! No, don't do it! Wait, do it!" To the point that we all basically had to say, "Okay, this is worse than Maeve. We'll acknowledge her opinions as opinions, consider them, and then do things Right anyways." I haven't seen the new Viravain (or Nocht) doing that sort of thing (though they do weigh in from time to time with Opinions, it's not an "every day, contradicting the day before" event).

While I don't in the slightest disagree with the conclusion, I'm not sure about this example, because a) She changed Her mind and withdrew it, didn't She? and b) I think he was in Her order at the time, and I don't think She disfavored non-Lisae Serens for the same thing, so it could be seen as an internal Order matter. (I could be wrong about either point though.)

If she reversed it, I don't think it made its way to the forums-- but even then, it's more an Order matter than a Seren one (and something he couldn't have done much about, being on an aetherbubble at the time).

While she very well may have done so eventually, it does still serve as an example of the sort of influence the Divine can (and do) wield over their organizations. She did not have to reverse it, and she did feel the need to do it in the first place.

I also know that the old Charune (I don't know about the current one since he just returned) did wield a lot of power in shaping Serenwilde decisions, both for and against, certain things. When he felt the desire to interject, at least.

Just to clarify, it was an Order policy to protect the elfen on Caiohme Dell set down by Lisaera. So there was no disfavour by Lisaera for anything to do with Serenwilde. Not to mention that is not exactly what he got disfavoured for.

Anyways, to an extent there will always be influence of a Divine in any any org/guild that they patron. Some Orders, I have really only seen it in the Serenwilde as that is where I see most of anything happening, do keep certain things at arms length though. i.e shrines Just because a shrine is defiled or enemy shrine is going to be defiled does not make it a Serenwilde issue for instance, and Serenwilde has in fact cried and cried when an Order involves itself in things and people retaliate against the Serenwilde. Then they cry and cry again, after demanding that the Divine keep their business to themselves, when the Divine don't help them enough. So really it is a "cake and eat it too" philosophy.

I think I've been disfavoured by Lisaera a total of two (three?) times now for Doing It Wrong whenever it came to the Order. Every time she ends up neutralizing the disfavour, so it's really more of a 'go stand in the corner and think about what you've done' thing instead of the 'I SHALL RAIN HELLFIRE UPON YOU' punishments I've come to expect of her. (Admittedly, the latter belief tends to be the best way to keep me out of trouble)

As far as Divine interaction in Serenwilde..I haven't seen much of Charune, he's pretty heavily engrossed in coding anyways. Lisaera's almost always watching and listening, and when she snaps her fingers the Lisae will come running. Serenwilde's free to ignore her. We defend Caoimhe Dell on a regular basis, for instance, Seren isn't explicitly required to do that. She never assumes total authority in Serenwilde, either, she'll just make comments and suggestions. The suggestions themselves are usually pretty neutral, too, just as much as they're correct/efficient so there's no real reason to ignore them.

If you want neutral, go to Elostian, I guess?

I do not understand the term consulate in this context. I have seen new divine be added to celest, it was player driven. Could you expand more on how players are not able to remove them?

That is actually a pretty good observation.

Keep in mind that most of the organization doesn't have to deal with the Divine on a political level, and (as such) often does not have a full understanding of what's going on. If you're random-citizen, and your leaders make a post saying "Eventru is such a pain, he's telling us what to do and he's really being annoying! As such, we're booting him," you could probably expect a pretty decent revolt, simply because there is a large difference in terms of what people see. You might even lead it yourself. They don't have an understanding of what exactly is being done.

Then, on top of that, add in roleplay and other members of the political team who support / agree with his policies (there will always be some) who will post the opposing viewpoint.

It really is not feasible to ditch an entrenched Divine. That, and I think it was just made more difficult to kick a God (I don't remember the announce specifics, unfortunately). Further, the Gods themselves wield the power to force anyone who they don't like out of the organization, whether they're GM, City Leader, or whatever. No votes required, and the logs make it look like that person quit of their own free will.

Edit: As a note, I am not saying that Eventru does this. He's just one of the flashiest Divine, so I decided to pick his name out of the Divine Lottery.

This is really interesting. I didn't know that the divine could straight up remove someone from elected office. I'm assuming thats an OOC administration failsafe. Has this ever been used for a roleplaying purpose before?

Also Xenthos are you saying that the City Leader can't just REMOVE PATRON mechanically? I understand the political fallout. How does the appointment/divestment of a patron work?

For example I know Isune was one of Celest's patrons. When Isune returned to the basin she was removed from Celest's consulate. I'm assuming that was an admin decision because a new person was playing Isune, but I'm not sure. Did Celest's ruling characters play a role?

Thats quite some power, good thing they use it sparsely. Or do they? After all you couldnt tell unless that person makes a scene.

For the most part i think the Divine i've encountered in Magnagoran life and my brief Glomdoring life as my alt, dont seem to have the problems your describing, i havent even heard them make guild or org suggestions i just think they make the guild and orgs more interesting. And if you go against the will of a Divine and find yourself in their wrath isnt this part of the game? They are Divine after all? Its in their character to be wrathful and get their way simply by being higher beings in a RP sense.

For instance, say i'm in a guild whose patron is our Divine Lottery winner Eventru and me and some other people are all "that Eventru shouts to much and im fed up. I say we dont follow him anymore" its only natural for a "god" to smote you and your friends. I mean face it they will always have the better cards. And being of the Divine nature they will make decrees that effect not just guild life but city life. Its easy to get caught up in the heroes/adventurers as being the driving force from and OOC standpoint, but i mean in Lusternia, IG, all the heroes/adventurers that ever lived/will live are just 'pawns' in a bigger game.

But thats just the way i look at it, i like my characters to be religious and think the Divine/Player interaction is the best part of Lusternia.

There was the Glomdoring Disaster where admins were forcing Xenthos/Shayle to resign 'for the sake of making Glomdoring a better organization' or something, literally through forced actions. I think they were made to enemi eachother or kick eachother out or..well, something. I can't clearly remember how it went, but oh the lulz that ensued.

I thought I clearly addressed the issues with removing a patron in my first post. I fully understand what is involved as I have actually been part of such a process in achaea. There is a large difference though between something that is hard to do and something that is impossible to do.

Visaeris's post seemed to imply some kind of mechanical block to doing it.

If this is not true then my original points still stand. An org -could- remove a divine who was making life hell for the org or even just a large part of the org. No it would not be easy, and you would probably require the support of another divine, but you could do it.



Seriously? That seems wrong on many levels, is this a power they gain on being added to the pantheon for an org? Why is there no message of responsibility?

Edit:
Wow I am slow, 'ed by like everyone.

I think that was part of her "return" thing, since there was an event concerning the org she would end up in. With other Divine, sometimes their orders are disbanded and the character "reset," so it needs to be started up again. Even in that case, though, it's pretty much always a Divine on the Consulate already who welcomes the new-comer. There was an announce post relatively recently about making it so that a city leader can't just boot out a member of the Consulate (though the Patron can be switched, actually removing them from the org is hard).

And yes, it has been used for a roleplaying purpose before. Three times.

To Enthralled: It's basically the fact that the Gods have a special force-command to make you do things, that leaves no message on your screen saying that you've been forced, and apparently is not subject to the same strictures as other forces. Thus, they can use the force-command to order you to quit your organization, and to all involved (even yourself) it looks like you did it.

Perhaps only I make this distinction but an Admin action is different from the IC action of a Divine. As in obviously the senior Admin can force actions they feel are best for the game, and they might choose to do so with some IC cover or just with no message at all as the case may be.

I am only concerned about a divine taking IC action to remove someone. Like say if I just constantly was going on IC about how Isune's teachings made no sense, and in response she removed me from the city. That would be a big deal in my mind. If she just got her followers in the city leadership to vote me out though that would be a different story. (and like Xenthos I am just picking Isune for no particular reason)

It was an IC action. The Glomdoring basically said, "Okay, what Viravain is doing now makes absolutely no sense. This can't be Viravain, it's likely someone impersonating her while she's indisposed." Made a post saying that. And then that started. (It was when they started the aborted "Wyrden Seed" event)

In fact, I think you can find the public post somewhere. My first (and only) public post, as far as I can remember.

That's not quite true, Estarra told at least one person that Viravain was not being impersonated or insane, and to please work with us in the event, and then was pretty much ignored and then lied to point blank that I said no such thing which partially (but not wholly) prompted the reaction to the commune leaders. Anyway, I really, really do not want to rehash this.

To the point at hand, the guideline is for the divine to advise, not to control, players orgs (except, of course, their own orders). There's no more hard or fast rules, and indeed there's a lot of grey area and fuzziness. If you feel a divine is too controlling, you can email support with your concerns or grievances.

While I (still) don't remember being told that, and it's possible that the person just didn't pass it on... you're right that bringing up the event part itself doesn't really do anything in terms of this discussion. And I wasn't really trying to do that. I did intend, however, to point out that there are some very powerful tools at the Divines' disposal which encourages the players to seriously listen to anything they say as something "close to" an order. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, as they are the Divine, but it is a bit of extra evidence that demonstrates the Divine really are supposed to have the potential to wield an awful lot of power if they so choose. And if it doesn't get to be too much in terms of game-balance.

Edit: And I'll go on to agree that discussing the event itself really isn't likely helpful anywhere. It was definitely not pleasant the first time through. However, there were a few things that happened during it which are worth bringing up in discussions such as these (such as the force-ability, the possibility of which is unrelated to the actual event itself), and I think that discussing them as they apply to this thread is okay.