If you're a guild leader of some sort, odds are that you'll have to conduct some guild test every now and again. Or, if you're an Aide to the Ambassador, you'll have to welcome someone into the city or commune at some point.

So, my question is this, if you ever have to fail someone for a guild test, or reject someone who wants to join your commune/city, does it make you feel bad?

Last night I was playing, and there was some random character who wanted to join Glomdoring. His English was horrible. He couldn't properly spell, punctuate, or capitalize words. I'm well aware that I'm not a poster child of perfect English, but I have an overall decent grip on the language. Thinking he may be from somewhere where English isn't the native language, I asked him where he was from. He stated he was from Australia.

So being that there was nothing else I could do, I had another character talk to him and see what he thought. We both agreed to deny him entrance. And honestly, I felt pretty bad because I was closing off a possible route the person could take and have fun with in the game.

Does anyone else ever deal with similar situations and feel bad about it?

I love to fail people. It brings me joy.

Not allowing someone in because their skills with English suck is kind of lame, honestly. Some people aren't smart, can't be helped.

That said: I've failed people who can't answer test questions, and obviously don't even have a basic level of knowledge, without hesitation.

I off-set my guilt from failing people by always trying to carefully explain why I failed the person (for guild rank tests mostly, I've never really had to deny anyone entrance to an org before), what they need to work on, and what they did well on, gave them suggested reading or tips and then asked them when they'd like to retest.

eta: And yeah, not letting someone into an org because they've got poor language skills is kinda lame. Being around people who converse well might help him/her to improve!

As irritating as it might be, it doesn't seem quite fair to penalize someone in such a way - and hey, he may be from Australia but his first language STILL might not be English! He may even increase his skill with English over time.

Now, obviously if a person is a pain to deal with - obnoxious, can't answer the questions, etc - that's a different story. Rejecting someone for poor English skills, however, isn't really one of those situations.

As a note, I didn't reject him solely on poor language skills. While that was a contributing factor for me, the other person that I had talk to him rejected him for reasons beyond that.

Edit: His reason for wanting to join Glom was "Because I hate Serenwilde." When asked WHY he hated Serenwilde, his answer was "A bunch of goody two-shoes all of them" or something along those lines.

To be bluntly honest, those who have bad trouble with English are not going to stick around in a text game for all that long.*

I agree that in such capacities you should think about the player's ability to enjoy the game but I don't think you should feel bad in this case. I've failed people before in this and Achaea and it's a pain but you've got to use your judgement. Getting a second opinion is always a good idea too. The Gods would not allow players to hold positions if it was genuinely having a negative impact on the ability of people to enjoy the game.

ETA: Ninja'd by your post, to which I would add: I would've said no too. Really, have at least one positive reason...not anti-the-opposite...

ETA2: * This didn't quite come out right. What I meant is not 'bad trouble', but...serious trouble and not caring at all. There -are- people, and I've known quite a few, who genuinely try and get a lot better and it's great that MUDs do that. But sadly you do get a lot of people who just don't care. Those are the ones I was referring to, because I got the impression that this was the sort of person we were talking about

Sounds like a kid who doesn't know how to roleplay yet. When I first logged into Achaea, my only reason for joining a city was because it was dark, and the "good" people seemed to act like jerks. Learning to roleplay takes time and experience.

Perhaps so. I didn't say that he couldn't join Glomdoring, I told him that he wouldn't be sponsored by either Cylus or myself. I specifically said that he could try and find other sponsors if he wanted.

Honestly, there's no doubt in my mind that some others in Glom would've been like "ZOMGHAI!*CUDDLEZ*ILLSPONSORZU!" (read: Dowapaa)

That, then, would be different from "His English wasn't good", which is presented as your entire reasoning (and the second person's reasoning) in the original post.

And Iola, that's honestly just not true. I know many non-native English speakers (with serious language barriers) who stuck around and improved their English substantially while playing other IRE games. Lusternia is an American game played in English, but it's certainly globally accessible.

Yea, I feel bad when failing people, even when they deserve it. They might not be "ready" for it, but it still feels like you're denying them a bit of happiness in a game they're trying to play for fun. It's been a while since I've had to give any kind of test though.

And there are plenty of people here whose first language isn't English. With some of them, you can spot it right away. But while there's definitely a level of tolerance expected for these kinds of players, I tend to agree with Iola's opinion...

I, for one, am a non-native speaker and I feel that my English has indeed improved quite a bit in the time I have played Lusternia. When I think of myself some three (two?) years ago, I am surprised I even stayed. However, due to some rather fortunate coincidences and a regular nudge from a very special admin, I did. (Yes, this is also a shameless rave for Elostian and his patience.)

I think that this conveys my stance rather clearly - I do not think anyone should be refused from membership for the sole reason of not speaking "proper" English. Rather, they should be guided and encouraged to improve their language. While it is not in our resposibilities to tolerate everything, we could at least show some lenience and give them a chance to improve.

Eh, when I first started playing Lusternia my grammar and use of proper English sentences was not great at all. I'm Canadian, English is my native tongue and considering I'm just starting to learn French in a proper fashion, I had no excuse for mix-ups. I'm still not all that great, I still have issues with speaking aloud and there's still the occasional problem I face with typing.

A lot of written English, especially on the internet, gets destroyed by the lack of rules enforced. There's nobody here to enforce where punctuation goes, how a sentence should properly be written out, et cetera. Those who type in "leet" or the various forms of internet speak will have difficulties.

I wouldn't have told someone no based on their usage of English, I would've attempted to help them improve. As for denying them for saying they don't like Seren and Seren's are good two shoes? Wouldn't have denied them there either, I would've given them my sponsorship and asked them to reflect over time the real reasons why they feel dislike to Serenwilde, they're "new, impressionable" when they just start as a character, also don't forget that it's cannon that you "forget" everything from before the Portal, so maybe their only left over impressions was that they didn't like Serenwilde, felt they were too good and so on and so forth.

I can tell you as an experienced player, I still stumble when asked "why do you want to join?". Heck, I just want to switch up my playing style, try something new, have fun, et cetera.

I had a policy of never failing people. People who I thought were not good enough, I would give them "special requirements" and if they never fulfilled those "special requirements" or decided to break the "special requirements" then, at that point I would kick them out of the guild. (But I never put that into the official guild rules, cause I thought it would get abused)

That's a pretty cool idea, in my opinion. The problem there for me is, I'm still just an Undersec and gr3, so I don't know where those "lines" are for me. So generally, I just stick to protocol.

Yeah, I'm gonna edit because I totally didn't end up saying what I meant there.

It's also pretty much non-existant in the EG these days since Xen is a stickler for following rules, I'm afraid. :/

If I have to deny someone sponsorship, I usually tell them no and why, and point them at other people. If something strikes me as really off I may actually go talk to their other sponsors and try to figure out what the other sponsors saw that I didn't (a lot of the time it turns out they didn't really bother to ask any questions... ). But they usually end up in anyways once they've spent a bit more time discussing things.

At the same time, I try not to fail people on guild tests unless it's clear that they didn't bother to put any work in. Especially lower-level guild tests, I will ask questions and try to guide them towards the answer. Once they get it, they get a congrats and we move on. Lower-rank guild tasks are not meant to be a "You must know everything!!," but a learning experience. To me, at least.

Well my view was based on two things.

1. I remember when I played my first char in Achaean, and I failed my interview. Then I just suicided, recreated my character with a new name, and then I knew what they were looking for, so I passed my interview. I thought this was a very lame way of playing a game, so I decided I wouldn't make people do that. If they were willing to change their play style and character for what the guild wanted, then why make them re-create their character over again.

2. Second reason, was that it gave me an excuse to get more involved with my guildmates (guildmembers when I was GM) personal lives. (character's personal lives, not players)

That's why I prefer my way, tbh. Look at the tests as a teaching and guiding experience for the newbies, not a pass/fail exam which halts all progress (or results in being tossed out? Wtf?). Fits in with the rules, don't have to bend them for any individual (which I've found causes issues), and generally don't have to tack on extra requirements.

I'm talking about people trying to join the guild, not people taking tests within the guild.

Back in the day when I made my first char, there was no auto guild newbie system.

edit: The most public example of this was when Visaeris asked to join the EG and I said ok, as long as he promised not to run for any public office for his first 10 years or so. (which he failed to do, heh)