I know there's discussions elsewhere in several threads regarding forging, but this thread is to get feedback on discussions we've been having internally and where we seem to be headed.

We are thinking of having forging work exactly as it currently does! However, we would implement some hard caps. For instance, a completed weapon may never have a stat lower than 50 or higher than 150.

After you forge a weapon in the normal way, you may then temper the sword +/- one point in a stat for 2 steel (artifact hammers can temper for 1 steel). (This steel is never recoverable.) You cannot lower a stat below 50 or higher than 180. The total of all three stats may never exceed 463. All current weapons would be retroactively adjusted to fit these rules.

Note that weapons can be adjusted even after runes are placed on them so long as they follow the above guidelines.

The aim is that forging remains somewhat arduous insofar that you must still go through the old forging technique and you may still end up forging several times to get a weapon “close” to what you want. However, once you get a weapon close to the stats you want, you can begin tempering it exactly how you want it.

You may still get ‘lucky’ and get the perfect weapon without any tempering needed. Usually, however, you could just spend steel commodities to adjust a typical weapon to get the perfect weapon.

One concern we have is that all weapons would be exactly the same rather than the greater variety we see now. Most weapons may be tempered to the following two stat range: 180/103/180 or 103/180/180. With the level 3 stat runes, they will be 195/118/195 and 118/195/195. For two handers, you are looking at 360/226/180 or 206/396/180, with runes which will be, 390/262/195 or 236/432/195.

Given the way that things work, everyone will go for 180 speed, irregardless of anything. Speed tops everything else for both hunting and pvp. Could there be a way for someone to actually benefit if they sacrifice speed for damage and wounding? We are thinking that higher speeds may increase the miss rate. The point is that there should be some incentive not to always choose high speed as a weapon choice.

We are also pondering giving forging to monks. This would enable monks to put dwarven runes on their weapons. We would also allow monks to wear leather and perhaps have another special leather class for monks. We would remove masterarmour as the transcendent skill and replace it with special runes that could be placed on armour, allowing monks to upgrade their leather armour to be better than the robes they wear now. Warriors would upgrade their platemail to be comparable to what their masterarmour is now. (Current masterarmour would be downgraded to plate status.)

Anyway, there's a lot to take in, I know. But let us hear your constructive feedback.

Currently speed trumps everything given the current "much larger emphasis on strength than on weapon statistics". There has been, traditionally, emphasis on others by having a lesser impact by strength and a greater impact by weapon statistics (ie, make precision more effective, strength less). That way you don't have to muck with miss rates which are already rather frustrating.

Also: I spent a large number of credits on masterarmour, given some assurances that I received (via issues and the like). I've got a message from the Oneiroi saying I would never lose it due to decay and the like, which is why I made that investment. If you're going to change the artifact, I'd like you to consider how it's going to impact those of us to whom you've already given these assurances. That was a significant investment.

That greater variety is exactly why there are problems. When only a small percent of weapons are useable in top tier combat, having such a great variety means nothing. The less variety in stats available, the less AFK forging there will be and the happier people will be in general.


Restore precision's worth and usefulness and people will actually forge for it. With precision and maybe damage handicapped as they are, people are going to go for speed because it is the only stat that makes a difference anymore.


Please, please, please no. As the only class that has misses, we are already at a disadvantage with them. Please don't increase the miss rate.


As said above, when damage and precision are useful, they will be sought for. The answer isn't to nerf the speed stat, it's to make the others useful.

Meh. I'm doing a lot of multiple posting here, but I keep coming up with questions.

If the new max speed is going to be 180 (given your posting), what happens to all those weapons that are at the current max speed (280)? And my normal weapons which are 200-speed base?

Do we get to choose where these extra stats are moved to, or are they just all going to be lost?

I mean, my normal fighting rapiers are x/225/200...

I agree with the not increasing the miss rate, warriors already miss enough with natural miss rate.

Also in regards to Xenthos' question, when weapon stats are changed from 280 max to 180 max is everything else going to scale to that? As in I hit at about 2s right now with 320 speed hammers. With the stat scale down would I still be hitting the same speed with 220 speed?

Why is it so horrible that a class uses generally the same offensive base? Plus people already aim for the 'optimal' stats as everyone else, so... how is making forging easier going to change this? People already spend months on their weapons, this just means more time using the weapons.

Please don't add greater miss rates to skills that already have a high chance of missing or not hitting the targeted body part. Swings are already a 30-60% gamble to miss the part you want to hit altogether, plus the random chance to do an affliction of random severity.

The idea seems solid, however, one concern or two. One being that I assume there will be a re-adjustment of stat weights? If not, non arti warriors will be falling apart.

My idea for making slower weapons worth it is to give weapons below a certain speed a high chance of breaking parry/stance. Each amount you go below a certain speed, add a certain (has to be high like 5-10%) chance of beating parry/stance. That way you could have a VERY accurate but also VERY slow weapon.

Regarding master armour, if we make the change, then we would have to change how it is for the armour that exists. I'm not sure how we could in good conscience do otherwise and let others have armour better than everyone else's just because they lucked into getting forging earlier. Sorry!

Regarding "making precision better"--you may recall that in order to make combat styles mean anything, we had to readjust the warrior formulas. This was an arduous process and tweaking one thing unravels many other things. I think it was Desitrus who was our point person who we went to for the final balance. Thus, I am not sure we want to go back and revisit actually adjusting the formulas unless absolutely necessary. Or did you have something else in mind? It's been pointed out that currently the trend to ignore high precision in favour for speed is due to the fact that achieving low wounding affs like knock downs inhibit curing more than going for high wounding and achieving affs that are easily cured. This may not be a problem with numbers but rather with the way affs are given and cured, but that's a waaaay bigger issue than forging.

Regarding what caps we finally decide on, current weapons would retroactively have their stats adjusted to follow the new rules. The 180 number is being thrown around but you are welcome to convince us if other numbers are more appropriate!

The reason for ignoring high prec for high speed is because prec doesn't mean anything and with that you can achieve more wounds per second with bashing weapons than you can with high prec weapons.

Interesting idea. Would that really make it worth going for a low speed weapon?

Define a 'bashing weapon'?

Interesting, and it definitely addresses the non-forging rune, insanely small probability high end statistic issue.



I have mixed feelings about my existing weapons, but overall, I feel this is an incredibly positive change. Much like switching to the metric system. Perhaps slightly painful at first, but the benefits outweigh the loss.

Especially pleasing to me is the ability now to really make a sword you want- you can forge a claymore for speed, or use that design with cloth commodities (assuming you're willing to risk tempering out of some abyssal stat-hole).

Well conceived!



I like the idea of making leather more viable, but at this point, I think it would go over better if we just let forgers make a new class of leather for monks. I agree with altering plate to fall under the same stat cap system, as good platemail can be a bear to get as well. The move away from randomness is nice in any event.

I would also hope that the tempering rules outlined above could be applied to kata weapons, which are their own, special little monster. Perhaps the stat caps would also need to be adjusted there as well, so we didn't end up with a 220 tahto with forging runes, keph bonus, and arti runes setting an impossible to balance curve for all other monks.


Edit:

Two other thoughts- Agree with everiine- there is no variety now, just "junk" and "basically the same weapon everyone else has". Speed wounders are either 280 speed with the rest dumped in precision for demigods, or a lower speed higher prec mix for everyone else.

Other thought- Don't freaking up the mis rate. That would be one of those changes deemed retarded by all, and illicit many responses akin to "what the hell were they smoking?" "What kind of short-bus BS crap is this" and "Good **** **** gosh kumbaya **** **** French **** *** ***** this ***** **** Lindburgher ***** *****."

Seriously, missing sucks already, and is one more headache to balance around.

Have to admit, having made a 300 credit investment to get masterarmour I'd be very upset if it just upped and vanished on me due to changes to forging.

At the moment Precision and Damage on weapons do very very little, it's about 1 stat = 1-2 damage or 1-2 wounds. High speed weapons are the only viable ones at the moment. If you changed forging to have stat caps at 180 and didn't touch any of the forumlas, those of us without runes would be in serious serious trouble.

Any 280 speed weapon.

Other stats not really that important.

He's saying you could spend days forging for morning stars with max prec and decent speed/damage and wound a hell of a lot more efficiently with the first 280 speed weapon to come out of the forge.

I'm just going to state this bluntly: That does not seem like much of a fix. We have collectively asked you to make it so that forging is not incredibly random, and you've fired back with,

To be perfectly honest I do not understand why warriors need to have a stat variety in individual weapon types, period. I would be perfectly content to see all Katanas given the exact same stats, and all klangaxes, and hammers, and so forth. Having multiple types of weapons gives you a variety. I have always thought it absurd that warriors (and now monks to a lesser degree) are the only class in the game that doesn't have a fixed stat for their damage output (that I know of. Am I wrong?). This would put warriors on a level playing field with eachother, and make combat less about, "My weapon is more legendary than your weapon."

As per miss rate: there are already an insane amount of things that stop you from hitting with a weapon. Magical shields, rebounding, stances, parry, trueshield, evasion and natural miss rates already apply to warriors. Noone else has this staggering amount of things working against them, please do not add to it. Besides, a transcendent knight should not be flailing around blindly with his weapon.

Moving on, please do not take away what little business warriors get already by handing the skill set over to monks. Please, make monks -less- like warriors, not more.

Am I the only one that started twitching at the idea of monks in leather that is better than robes AND forging runes? I don't think that class is the one that needs the buffs.

The masterarmour wouldn't vanish but numbers would adjust to fit the new rules.

Your welcome to suggest other caps!

Hadn't thought of that, more concerned about what's going to happen to my masterarmour and my weapons