Moiraine2009-08-13 02:37:39
So, Lorick wrote this in another post..
And I like this take on it. Leaving Ka as a static point value, either completely or perhaps dependent on skill level (though with less variance, 300-500 novice to transcendent for example), what if momentum acted more as a sort of Power source for monk afflicting?
For example, momentum would have a limit of let's say ten. You get points for offensive actions as you do now, and maybe for active defensive actions such as Deflect. Momentum would still increase balance recovery, but not as extremely. Kata would be given a somewhat faster base speed, and each point of momentum would decrease recovery by .1 or .2 seconds, say.
Then you could choose to use burst tactics, or go for a steady flow of afflictions. I might add in a modifier to break limbs, but since I gain momentum on the attack, boom, I stay at full momentum while managing to break a limb, maybe two, on each attack.
Or I severspine and mangle a couple legs, and lose most of my momentum, slowing me down somewhat and preventing another affliction burst or an instakill for awhile.
It's only the more impressive afflictions that cost momentum, so it would be entirely possible to try to keep a target somewhat disabled while stacking momentum, as Ka would no longer limit you to puny little ineffective moves. Then you can choose to burn most of it on a round of crazywtfpwning, or conserve it to methodically beat someone down.
Anyway, I like the idea of removing the extremes from monk combat. Too many things change from moment to moment for monks, it's all gotten a bit too complicated to want to use. Too complicated to be able to use effectively, for new players, so I've heard a lot lately.
(just don't crucify me, I know I'm not a god of combat >.>)
QUOTE
All this talk of adding a power cost to the raze modifier fails to address the prevailing issues that have been oh so apparent with the current system of monk combat.
1. Monk combat is heavily weighted on the end. 1-3 momentum is subpar, 4-5 is above average. Momentum itself does not address this massive variation that makes them hard to balance.
2. Monk combat isn't fun in it's current edition, least for me. Variable Ki is a pain to deal with, for both parties, attacking and recieving. We went from a newbie friendly kata system in the massively complex combat area of Lusternia to an exercise I leave to a program. It's just more scripting, and it isn't even balanced by any sense or feel of the word. 1000 ka is allows for more offense than any class, argueably, while the starter amount of 250 means you grapple until you have a higher total. Grappling is not fun, it isn't interesting, and it sure as hell is boring.
3. Tahtetso instant kill is too easy to pull of. Two forms, that is all you need. That is around 3-4 seconds of balance for me. I can't recall an instant kill in the game that is so easily pulled off. While I love the fact we've been given all sorts of useful and interesting afflictions, I hate the fact they are all weighted into the 4-5 momentum area and reasonibly so to try and limit the instant kill.
What I would like to see---
1. Flat Ka - I want to see a flat ka rate for both moves, modifiers, and a flat ka total that from a novice you have a maximum amount in. Gaining skills should be about learning new and interesting ways to use that ka, not about the total itself. For example, from novice a Tahtetso has lets say 500 Ka, moves could be balanced to reflect this total since their is no variation.
2. Momentum Changes - I would like to see momentum be built up by using forms, like before, and then used to fuel afflictions. I would like for some variation in momentum cost for some afflictions (Rakti'sho deserves at least 2) but I'd also like momentum to be easier to gain and maintain, gaining momentum even if you failed to hit your foe on dodge or parry and the like. Since the afflictions moves could cost more momentum than 1, their power could be more balanced out than it currently is by ensuring they can't be followed up on in quick succession.
3. Instant Kill- It is way way way too easy to pull off right now. There needs to be some way to artificially increase the time inbetween affliction and burst. Before, the Tahtetso had a harder time of ensuring a paralysis, but with sever spine added this is no longer the case. I'd like for their to be some mechanical structure to at the very least make sure that affliction and burst are seperated by an additional form that can not be used with momentum. So, Affliction - Non Momentum Affliction Form - Heartburst. This could be done by raising the affliction cost's momentum or requiring the heartburst to use all 5 momentum levels from the changes above.
Conclusion- The current line of thought behind these proposed changes is in the wrong vein. The reason monks are overpowering isn't raze, nor is it their afflictions, but rather the system behind them that allows them to affliction with said afflictions in mass quickly and with some certainty. This is defended by stating that their starting forms are so weak, and thus is balanced against long term combat. I cry . An extreme weakness and superior strength does not balance make. I would rather see monks balanced from start to finish in a kata on what they can do, how they can do it, and how much of a threat they are.
1. Monk combat is heavily weighted on the end. 1-3 momentum is subpar, 4-5 is above average. Momentum itself does not address this massive variation that makes them hard to balance.
2. Monk combat isn't fun in it's current edition, least for me. Variable Ki is a pain to deal with, for both parties, attacking and recieving. We went from a newbie friendly kata system in the massively complex combat area of Lusternia to an exercise I leave to a program. It's just more scripting, and it isn't even balanced by any sense or feel of the word. 1000 ka is allows for more offense than any class, argueably, while the starter amount of 250 means you grapple until you have a higher total. Grappling is not fun, it isn't interesting, and it sure as hell is boring.
3. Tahtetso instant kill is too easy to pull of. Two forms, that is all you need. That is around 3-4 seconds of balance for me. I can't recall an instant kill in the game that is so easily pulled off. While I love the fact we've been given all sorts of useful and interesting afflictions, I hate the fact they are all weighted into the 4-5 momentum area and reasonibly so to try and limit the instant kill.
What I would like to see---
1. Flat Ka - I want to see a flat ka rate for both moves, modifiers, and a flat ka total that from a novice you have a maximum amount in. Gaining skills should be about learning new and interesting ways to use that ka, not about the total itself. For example, from novice a Tahtetso has lets say 500 Ka, moves could be balanced to reflect this total since their is no variation.
2. Momentum Changes - I would like to see momentum be built up by using forms, like before, and then used to fuel afflictions. I would like for some variation in momentum cost for some afflictions (Rakti'sho deserves at least 2) but I'd also like momentum to be easier to gain and maintain, gaining momentum even if you failed to hit your foe on dodge or parry and the like. Since the afflictions moves could cost more momentum than 1, their power could be more balanced out than it currently is by ensuring they can't be followed up on in quick succession.
3. Instant Kill- It is way way way too easy to pull off right now. There needs to be some way to artificially increase the time inbetween affliction and burst. Before, the Tahtetso had a harder time of ensuring a paralysis, but with sever spine added this is no longer the case. I'd like for their to be some mechanical structure to at the very least make sure that affliction and burst are seperated by an additional form that can not be used with momentum. So, Affliction - Non Momentum Affliction Form - Heartburst. This could be done by raising the affliction cost's momentum or requiring the heartburst to use all 5 momentum levels from the changes above.
Conclusion- The current line of thought behind these proposed changes is in the wrong vein. The reason monks are overpowering isn't raze, nor is it their afflictions, but rather the system behind them that allows them to affliction with said afflictions in mass quickly and with some certainty. This is defended by stating that their starting forms are so weak, and thus is balanced against long term combat. I cry . An extreme weakness and superior strength does not balance make. I would rather see monks balanced from start to finish in a kata on what they can do, how they can do it, and how much of a threat they are.
And I like this take on it. Leaving Ka as a static point value, either completely or perhaps dependent on skill level (though with less variance, 300-500 novice to transcendent for example), what if momentum acted more as a sort of Power source for monk afflicting?
For example, momentum would have a limit of let's say ten. You get points for offensive actions as you do now, and maybe for active defensive actions such as Deflect. Momentum would still increase balance recovery, but not as extremely. Kata would be given a somewhat faster base speed, and each point of momentum would decrease recovery by .1 or .2 seconds, say.
Then you could choose to use burst tactics, or go for a steady flow of afflictions. I might add in a modifier to break limbs, but since I gain momentum on the attack, boom, I stay at full momentum while managing to break a limb, maybe two, on each attack.
Or I severspine and mangle a couple legs, and lose most of my momentum, slowing me down somewhat and preventing another affliction burst or an instakill for awhile.
It's only the more impressive afflictions that cost momentum, so it would be entirely possible to try to keep a target somewhat disabled while stacking momentum, as Ka would no longer limit you to puny little ineffective moves. Then you can choose to burn most of it on a round of crazywtfpwning, or conserve it to methodically beat someone down.
Anyway, I like the idea of removing the extremes from monk combat. Too many things change from moment to moment for monks, it's all gotten a bit too complicated to want to use. Too complicated to be able to use effectively, for new players, so I've heard a lot lately.
(just don't crucify me, I know I'm not a god of combat >.>)
Lorick2009-08-13 06:08:15
Well, it shouldn't sound odd that I agree with you, considering it's my post above. The current monk system is restrictive to newbies and neonate combatants, a layer that Lusternia -- Does Not Need -- and commits the greatest deadly sin of actually having you dealing with it while bashing.
Understand, you are a newbie, and you want to bash, get a little gold, ect. To be optimum, one could suggest anywhere from 2-5 different forms for hunting. Meaning, it is inapproriate for novices to use manually, so they better know how to make an alias, script, something to be able to hunt with any sort of fun, least anything 30-40 circle. This is on TOP OF learning cures, healing, and trying to keep themselves alive.
Personally, as much sense as momentum would make with having momentum meaning faster speed, combat balance wise that sort of thing is a nightmare just like when kata would speed up after the third form. Warriors don't get the increase, and comparsion are all too quickly coming. Combine with our three afflictions a form and we become the affliction class of the game. I'd rather we remain the same speed throughout the form, with maybe a speed increasing modifiers like we have now. Least that is better than before.
Understand, you are a newbie, and you want to bash, get a little gold, ect. To be optimum, one could suggest anywhere from 2-5 different forms for hunting. Meaning, it is inapproriate for novices to use manually, so they better know how to make an alias, script, something to be able to hunt with any sort of fun, least anything 30-40 circle. This is on TOP OF learning cures, healing, and trying to keep themselves alive.
Personally, as much sense as momentum would make with having momentum meaning faster speed, combat balance wise that sort of thing is a nightmare just like when kata would speed up after the third form. Warriors don't get the increase, and comparsion are all too quickly coming. Combine with our three afflictions a form and we become the affliction class of the game. I'd rather we remain the same speed throughout the form, with maybe a speed increasing modifiers like we have now. Least that is better than before.
Mirami2009-08-13 06:22:40
QUOTE (Lorick @ Aug 12 2009, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Understand, you are a newbie, and you want to bash, get a little gold, ect. To be optimum, one could suggest anywhere from 2-5 different forms for hunting. Meaning, it is inapproriate for novices to use manually, so they better know how to make an alias, script, something to be able to hunt with any sort of fun, least anything 30-40 circle. This is on TOP OF learning cures, healing, and trying to keep themselves alive.
Huh? you can hunt just fine without aliases as a monk, I did so, even though I knew how to- it's only something like 'KATA PERFORM FINK HUNT1 HUNT2 HUNT3'... Monks ARE autobashers. it's not hard at all, especially if you have aliases or a notepad document with your forms ready to copy/paste. Bards are worse than monks in this respect, IMO- 'play minorsecond target' gets kind of tiring as a novice, especially without a built-in autobasher.
QUOTE
Personally, as much sense as momentum would make with having momentum meaning faster speed, combat balance wise that sort of thing is a nightmare just like when kata would speed up after the third form. Warriors don't get the increase, and comparsion are all too quickly coming. Combine with our three afflictions a form and we become the affliction class of the game. I'd rather we remain the same speed throughout the form, with maybe a speed increasing modifiers like we have now. Least that is better than before.
The momentum system is what keeps us from having 8 warrior guilds. The problem with monks isn't/wasn't their high-level momentum being OP, it's the number/level of disabling afflictions they land with high-level momentum (which, in the Tahtetso's case, lead to the instakill), and that's what's getting fixed by changing the ka cost(Along with Skive, which was broken anyways).
Flat momentum = one of two things:
1: No high-level disabling afflictions (severspine, mangled limbs, etc.), resulting in monks being extremely underpowered.
2: High-level disabling affliction
Unless there's a way to work around the above two scenarios, I don't see how this could possibly help the game's balance.
Lorick2009-08-13 06:36:29
The idea being that while you have the ka to perform the affliction, you will lack the momentum to do so until you've used a few forms. Ka has never been the issue with momentum, momentum has been the issue. To give you an idea of the break down--
---Tahto - 75k
---Tahto - 75k
---Starkick- 125k
---Raktiah'sho - 400k (This is the sever spine, mangle, all the nasty affliction modifier)
Momentum 4 - 750 Ka
Momentum 5 - 1000 Ka
Momentum 6 - 1500 Ka
Changing the modifiers will not change the very basic problem. Making tahtai (Modifier to raze) like a warriors lunge will not change the fact you can pad a form with so much, nor will it stop the problem you just described, lots of afflictions in rapid order once someone attains the right amount of momentum. Raising the cost of the affliction modifiers is not prohibitive unless it is basically impossible.
Form 1 - with Raktiah'sho (Sever spine, mangle) M5 to M4
Form 2 - Raze form (No rebounding, back up in momentum) M4 to M5
Form 3 - Right back to Raktiah'sho
Tahtai is not the problem, the ease of regaining the appropriate momentum with the retard amounts of ka that are available at higher levels of momentum result in heavily padded forms that stack multiple modifiers without any sort of buffer. I think quite a few people agree that a two form instant kill is incredibly powerful. That is how long it takes to regain momentum to use the most powerful modifiers. And the sad thing? If we don't have that momentum we feel and play like a novice, regardless if you've transed a skill.
---Tahto - 75k
---Tahto - 75k
---Starkick- 125k
---Raktiah'sho - 400k (This is the sever spine, mangle, all the nasty affliction modifier)
Momentum 4 - 750 Ka
Momentum 5 - 1000 Ka
Momentum 6 - 1500 Ka
Changing the modifiers will not change the very basic problem. Making tahtai (Modifier to raze) like a warriors lunge will not change the fact you can pad a form with so much, nor will it stop the problem you just described, lots of afflictions in rapid order once someone attains the right amount of momentum. Raising the cost of the affliction modifiers is not prohibitive unless it is basically impossible.
Form 1 - with Raktiah'sho (Sever spine, mangle) M5 to M4
Form 2 - Raze form (No rebounding, back up in momentum) M4 to M5
Form 3 - Right back to Raktiah'sho
Tahtai is not the problem, the ease of regaining the appropriate momentum with the retard amounts of ka that are available at higher levels of momentum result in heavily padded forms that stack multiple modifiers without any sort of buffer. I think quite a few people agree that a two form instant kill is incredibly powerful. That is how long it takes to regain momentum to use the most powerful modifiers. And the sad thing? If we don't have that momentum we feel and play like a novice, regardless if you've transed a skill.
Lorick2009-08-13 06:38:49
Our idea was the make momentum itself restrictive. For example, lets say for the sake of arguement, you can get Moiraine's 10 Momentum. Using a mangle/sever spine form could instead of dropping you one level of momentum, drop you four. Meaning you wouldn't see that modifier again for at least four forms and as long as the ka is standard throughout all the forms the monk doesn't lose any ability to do offense, just the strongest modifier afflictions.
Esano2009-08-13 06:44:29
The original post seems to have missed a lot of monk changes that have already gone in on the test server and other balance issues.
1) Momentum costs now stack; if you use a momentum loss modifier it will lower momentum for each attack that it applies to.
EDIT: Clarify with examples.
Action 1: tahto lleg left
Action 2: tahto lleg right
Modifiers: raktiah'sho
(note: this is no longer actually possible, as raktiah'sho is now an action, but is familiar and one of the ones you brought up!)
Under the current main server system, that drops you one momentum. Under the new system, it drops you two, as raktiah'sho drops you one momentum on each of the tahtos. And in more things that drop momentum (e.g. bomolini) and those momentum costs will be added on too.
2) A side-effect of the above will be that the (tahtetso) instakill will be harder to pull off. Currently, it's just as easy (it was temporarily not as raktiah'sho would drain two mo if you used gut+chest for severspine+chestpain, but then raktiah'sho was made its own attack to make mangles more expensive and so you can just direct raktiah'sho at gut and tahto chest), but further changes are still planned around it.
3) .1 or .2 seconds per momentum level, up to momentum level 10? That's a massive difference. One or two seconds off your balance recovery, with a faster base than current? You're outracing the baseline for curing balances there, especially at high-speed kata weapons.
4) Your proposed changes to momentum and flat ka won't really change much as to the "starting by grappling" thing; most afflictions will be given a momentum cost so you can't start off with them, and you'll be grappling to build up the momentum to use your afflictions, just like you grapple to build up the momentum to have the ka to use your afflictions now. Forms which drop your momentum to limit the actions you can use currently ... drop your momentum thus dropping your ka thus limiting the actions you can use. So, what would this achieve? While you may think having momentum as an almost intermediary is more complex and annoying, it actually simplifies matters in various respects, especially with regards to mixing and matching various modifiers and attacks. It just needs to be balanced a bit better (which is being done).
5) Severspine and mangling legs in the one form is not possible, and yes, will drop you quite a lot of momentum even if you do it over two forms (severspine is currently 1 mo, and a guaranteed mangle by double raktiah'sho is 2, don't know if these are slated to increase). You don't gain momentum on a form with a lose-momentum modifier, so you're down 3mo from when you started. And they're still being looked at.
Probably some other stuff.
1) Momentum costs now stack; if you use a momentum loss modifier it will lower momentum for each attack that it applies to.
EDIT: Clarify with examples.
Action 1: tahto lleg left
Action 2: tahto lleg right
Modifiers: raktiah'sho
(note: this is no longer actually possible, as raktiah'sho is now an action, but is familiar and one of the ones you brought up!)
Under the current main server system, that drops you one momentum. Under the new system, it drops you two, as raktiah'sho drops you one momentum on each of the tahtos. And in more things that drop momentum (e.g. bomolini) and those momentum costs will be added on too.
2) A side-effect of the above will be that the (tahtetso) instakill will be harder to pull off. Currently, it's just as easy (it was temporarily not as raktiah'sho would drain two mo if you used gut+chest for severspine+chestpain, but then raktiah'sho was made its own attack to make mangles more expensive and so you can just direct raktiah'sho at gut and tahto chest), but further changes are still planned around it.
3) .1 or .2 seconds per momentum level, up to momentum level 10? That's a massive difference. One or two seconds off your balance recovery, with a faster base than current? You're outracing the baseline for curing balances there, especially at high-speed kata weapons.
4) Your proposed changes to momentum and flat ka won't really change much as to the "starting by grappling" thing; most afflictions will be given a momentum cost so you can't start off with them, and you'll be grappling to build up the momentum to use your afflictions, just like you grapple to build up the momentum to have the ka to use your afflictions now. Forms which drop your momentum to limit the actions you can use currently ... drop your momentum thus dropping your ka thus limiting the actions you can use. So, what would this achieve? While you may think having momentum as an almost intermediary is more complex and annoying, it actually simplifies matters in various respects, especially with regards to mixing and matching various modifiers and attacks. It just needs to be balanced a bit better (which is being done).
5) Severspine and mangling legs in the one form is not possible, and yes, will drop you quite a lot of momentum even if you do it over two forms (severspine is currently 1 mo, and a guaranteed mangle by double raktiah'sho is 2, don't know if these are slated to increase). You don't gain momentum on a form with a lose-momentum modifier, so you're down 3mo from when you started. And they're still being looked at.
Probably some other stuff.
Lorick2009-08-13 07:03:17
I agree with multiple losses of momentum. I don't agree that those losses should set the monk back to the basics. Being able to use two weapon strikes, a form of kick, and a small modifier should be the average in my mind for a form. Grappling is boring and annoying because it is the only certain way to currently build momentum (Certain as you can be). I'd like for monk combat to truely be about their weapon and less about hugging the enemy until such point as you feel ready to really hit them.
Lorick2009-08-13 07:03:18
Double Post
Ilyarin2009-08-13 07:55:54
I actually agree completely with Lorick's post. I would far prefer that over the current system. It feels far, far simpler.
Zalandrus2009-08-13 13:57:47
I personally am not sure that the new kata changes actually serve to 'balance' the monk class. It feels like the concept of momentum now makes it very difficult to even come close to the 'balanced' range; the four guilds will swing back and forth between overpowered and underpowered. A lot of the upcoming changes are admin-driven, so I'm willing to give it a try, see how it synergizes with the rest of the world, but I'm just not sure this new attempt will yield a longer-term solution...
A flat ka system is appealing in its simplicity, as others have said, but I think it oversimplifies, and would still be incredibly difficult to balance around...
A flat ka system is appealing in its simplicity, as others have said, but I think it oversimplifies, and would still be incredibly difficult to balance around...
Ardmore2009-08-13 14:52:14
QUOTE (Esano @ Aug 13 2009, 02:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1) Momentum costs now stack; if you use a momentum loss modifier it will lower momentum for each attack that it applies to.
EDIT: Clarify with examples.
Action 1: tahto lleg left
Action 2: tahto lleg right
Modifiers: raktiah'sho
(note: this is no longer actually possible, as raktiah'sho is now an action, but is familiar and one of the ones you brought up!)
Under the current main server system, that drops you one momentum. Under the new system, it drops you two, as raktiah'sho drops you one momentum on each of the tahtos. And in more things that drop momentum (e.g. bomolini) and those momentum costs will be added on too.
EDIT: Clarify with examples.
Action 1: tahto lleg left
Action 2: tahto lleg right
Modifiers: raktiah'sho
(note: this is no longer actually possible, as raktiah'sho is now an action, but is familiar and one of the ones you brought up!)
Under the current main server system, that drops you one momentum. Under the new system, it drops you two, as raktiah'sho drops you one momentum on each of the tahtos. And in more things that drop momentum (e.g. bomolini) and those momentum costs will be added on too.
This still makes me laugh--the fact that momentum loss didn't stack before is just a new low in the ability of the admin to understand balance. I almost
myself when I first heard that. Gah.Zalandrus2009-08-13 15:03:39
QUOTE (Ardmore @ Aug 13 2009, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This still makes me laugh--the fact that momentum loss didn't stack before is just a new low in the ability of the admin to understand balance. I almost myself when I first heard that. Gah.
myself when I first heard that. Gah.Somebody needs a hug!
Ardmore2009-08-13 15:08:03
QUOTE (Zalandrus Meyedsun @ Aug 13 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Somebody needs a hug!
That still wouldn't make the admin understand the concept of balance. Look when Spiritsingers, or Bards in general, were first released. There's -no- way something that terribad should ever, ever be put into the live game.
Unknown2009-08-13 19:54:28
Yes, Esano pointed out most of the changes, no swiftstrike, no tahtai, Raktiah'sho is an action and momentum is going to cause you to lose 2 momentum instead of 1 if you afflict with a momentum losing modifier or action twice in a form
Desitrus2009-08-13 20:37:30
Which was what it was supposed to be in the first place. Not even a nerf, it's a damn bug fix that should have been done ages ago.
Ardmore2009-08-13 22:25:54
I heard it was intentional. Either way it can't be defended.
