Syrian2009-09-16 02:49:33
I love the variety in Lusternia's tradeskills as they are, and clearly a hell of a lot of work has gone into making them unique, interesting and interconnected.
One of the things that I'd like to see changed, however, is the access of certain archetypes to tradeskill options. For me personally, the most glaring disparities is that archetypes locked to Highmagic (Guardians and Mages) do not have any gathering-type tradeskill available to choose. By gathering I mean that they harvest, extract or collect resources from their environment, rather than purchasing a set of base ingredients and refining those into some new product. Herbs and Poisons are the only two that meet this criteria in Lusternia so far, and coincidentally they are both bound to Lowmagic users.
The other issue I have is that the options each character have available to them are more limited in certain archetypes than others. For example, a Highmagic Monk seems to have five options to choose (Cooking, Tailoring, Jewelry, Artisan, and Bookbinding), whereas a Lowmagic Bard has the pick of eight (Cooking, Tailoring, Jewelry, Alchemy(Brewmeister), Herbs, Poisons, Artisan and Bookbinding). Every archetype locked to Highmagic has two fewer choices than their Lowmagic equivalent, and Monks suffer doubly in that they have no archetypal tradeskill option. In essence, 3 Lowmagic-only skills versus 1 Highmagic-only skill seems unnecessary.
Does the following solution have any merit?
1. Provide Monks with an extra skillset that reflects the other archetype-only skills (Enchantment, Alchemy, Forging).
I think given the trend with Enchantment and Alchemy that the best idea might be to introduce Forging specialties with distinct Warrior and Monk branches. Warriors can go on to make powerful armour and shields, Monks can go on to... well, I'm not sure what Monks actually use, but I'm sure something metallic would be handy! Alternatively, they could have their very own tradeskill created, though I'm not familiar enough with the archetype to suggest anything helpful.
2. Choose one of:
a ) Split both Herbs and Poisons at Master level into Highmagic/Lowmagic specialties.
Lowmagic herbalists are able to find the rarest and most delicate plants, Highmagic herbalists collect planar energies that allow them to grow magically infused plants and new varieties. Lowmagic poisonists are able to extract poison and special body parts from the most reclusive animals, Highmagic poisonists are able to extract poison and special body parts from the most magical/occult creatures.
b ) Transfer Herbs or Poisons to Highmagic users.
I can't really see the logic in this, and I certainly have no interest in Poisons (as they seem to have such a tiny demand compared to herbs). However, it may be an option in distributing the choices more fairly, without having to do much in terms of code. It would also not introduce any more combat items (which is something I'd definitely want to avoid, and certainly hope the other solutions would align with that as well).
c ) Create two new Highmagic-only gathering tradeskills.
This is probably the hardest solution to implement, because of the complexities involved in creating skills that are useful in a system that has already covered most character needs. My idea would be to fuse Bookbinding with a gathering component in which the Bookbinder collects writing, quotes, inscriptions or artifacts that they can then synthesise into desirable commodities, either from environment sources such as ruins and villages or from sentients through influence. Given that study of highmagic is highly intellectual and scholarly, it seems to fit that Bookbinder scholars would require Highmagic at least as much as Herbalist pickers would require Lowmagic - not to mention that the intellectual understanding of highmagic seems like it should be essential for the creation of magic scrolls and tomes. As for another tradeskill, I'm unsure, but perhaps we could brainstorm something!
One of the things that I'd like to see changed, however, is the access of certain archetypes to tradeskill options. For me personally, the most glaring disparities is that archetypes locked to Highmagic (Guardians and Mages) do not have any gathering-type tradeskill available to choose. By gathering I mean that they harvest, extract or collect resources from their environment, rather than purchasing a set of base ingredients and refining those into some new product. Herbs and Poisons are the only two that meet this criteria in Lusternia so far, and coincidentally they are both bound to Lowmagic users.
The other issue I have is that the options each character have available to them are more limited in certain archetypes than others. For example, a Highmagic Monk seems to have five options to choose (Cooking, Tailoring, Jewelry, Artisan, and Bookbinding), whereas a Lowmagic Bard has the pick of eight (Cooking, Tailoring, Jewelry, Alchemy(Brewmeister), Herbs, Poisons, Artisan and Bookbinding). Every archetype locked to Highmagic has two fewer choices than their Lowmagic equivalent, and Monks suffer doubly in that they have no archetypal tradeskill option. In essence, 3 Lowmagic-only skills versus 1 Highmagic-only skill seems unnecessary.
Does the following solution have any merit?
1. Provide Monks with an extra skillset that reflects the other archetype-only skills (Enchantment, Alchemy, Forging).
I think given the trend with Enchantment and Alchemy that the best idea might be to introduce Forging specialties with distinct Warrior and Monk branches. Warriors can go on to make powerful armour and shields, Monks can go on to... well, I'm not sure what Monks actually use, but I'm sure something metallic would be handy! Alternatively, they could have their very own tradeskill created, though I'm not familiar enough with the archetype to suggest anything helpful.
2. Choose one of:
a ) Split both Herbs and Poisons at Master level into Highmagic/Lowmagic specialties.
Lowmagic herbalists are able to find the rarest and most delicate plants, Highmagic herbalists collect planar energies that allow them to grow magically infused plants and new varieties. Lowmagic poisonists are able to extract poison and special body parts from the most reclusive animals, Highmagic poisonists are able to extract poison and special body parts from the most magical/occult creatures.
b ) Transfer Herbs or Poisons to Highmagic users.
I can't really see the logic in this, and I certainly have no interest in Poisons (as they seem to have such a tiny demand compared to herbs). However, it may be an option in distributing the choices more fairly, without having to do much in terms of code. It would also not introduce any more combat items (which is something I'd definitely want to avoid, and certainly hope the other solutions would align with that as well).
c ) Create two new Highmagic-only gathering tradeskills.
This is probably the hardest solution to implement, because of the complexities involved in creating skills that are useful in a system that has already covered most character needs. My idea would be to fuse Bookbinding with a gathering component in which the Bookbinder collects writing, quotes, inscriptions or artifacts that they can then synthesise into desirable commodities, either from environment sources such as ruins and villages or from sentients through influence. Given that study of highmagic is highly intellectual and scholarly, it seems to fit that Bookbinder scholars would require Highmagic at least as much as Herbalist pickers would require Lowmagic - not to mention that the intellectual understanding of highmagic seems like it should be essential for the creation of magic scrolls and tomes. As for another tradeskill, I'm unsure, but perhaps we could brainstorm something!
Xenthos2009-09-16 02:58:58
Just as a quick comment: There's currently a movement to lessen the complexity of Lusternia's combat system. I'm not sure that even more herbs will help with that. And we currently have a ton of tradeskills (and not enough people to really supply all of them). You do have a point that some guilds have fewer options than others, but I'm not sure that addressing that right now is really the way to go.
Syrian2009-09-16 03:03:21
Right, that's why I mentioned I would hope they don't introduce many new combat items, and I certainly agree with that! Cooking, for instance, doesn't seem to provide much additional combat complexity, and yet it is a valid and relatively valuable tradeskill in and of itself.
As an example, if the third option was considered, I would expect that the items scholarly research might produce would be primarily beneficial to areas other than combat, such as in the spheres of influence, travel, questing or utility. Alternatively, it might just produce duplicate items such as an incantation that cures the same things as a certain purgative, blocked by the same afflictions and on the same balance (although this is less easy to introduce and arguably of far less benefit to the game overall).
As an example, if the third option was considered, I would expect that the items scholarly research might produce would be primarily beneficial to areas other than combat, such as in the spheres of influence, travel, questing or utility. Alternatively, it might just produce duplicate items such as an incantation that cures the same things as a certain purgative, blocked by the same afflictions and on the same balance (although this is less easy to introduce and arguably of far less benefit to the game overall).
Aerotan2009-09-16 03:07:59
If memory serves, Herbs and Poisons are the only gathering type tradeskills (exempting single skills within another skillset, eg Jewelry's Gemcut, Alchemy's Amalgamate (which produces Sugar), and Druidry's Mulch)
The main reason seems to be legacy code, but really, it works, given that all the other tradeskills are about processing things. Besides, the only commodities that come to mind as being particularily harvestable would be the stuff villages produce naturally. Minerals, metals, meat, and leather. And I swear to Estarra, if I see a newbie seriously asking "how I mine for fish?" I'm Suiciding and taking half the basin with me.
EDIT:
Though any time I see more options for bookbinders to actually make money, my interest gets piqued.
The main reason seems to be legacy code, but really, it works, given that all the other tradeskills are about processing things. Besides, the only commodities that come to mind as being particularily harvestable would be the stuff villages produce naturally. Minerals, metals, meat, and leather. And I swear to Estarra, if I see a newbie seriously asking "how I mine for fish?" I'm Suiciding and taking half the basin with me.
EDIT:
Though any time I see more options for bookbinders to actually make money, my interest gets piqued.
Syrian2009-09-16 05:33:37
Here's an example for the third option, a revision of Bookbinding (lets just call it Scholarship or something). Please note this is a work in progress, there are lots of question marks there. Of course, better ideas than mine are most welcome!
* indicates a new ability, two of which I've taken from past suggestions (stationery/contracts).
Archaeology
20 pages/compartments or more (up to 25 max) = 75% chance to successfully retrieve it
10 pages/compartments or more = 50% chance to successfully retrieve it
9 pages/compartments or less = 25% chance to successfully retrieve it
9 pages/compartments or less = 20% chance to destroy the item
Anthropology
Probably a 100% chance to successfully harvest this, but there is a maximum of one thing of any type, and it might take multiple attempts.
Stratigraphy
(If room is empty, has a chance of creating 1-2 resource nodes. If not empty, has a
chance of increasing the number of pages/compartments over the course of a RL day)
Secrets:
Mantras:
Verses:
Highspeech:
Eulogies:
Incantations:
Relics:
CODE
You have gained the following abilities in Scholarship
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Scroll          Prepare a simple parchment to be used as a scroll.
EnchantedScript  Enchanted script limits who may read it.
Archaeology*Â Â Â Â Investigate the ruins of civilization for artifacts.
Secrets*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Uncover the hidden knowledge from secret societies.
Pamphlet        Create a pamphlet for organizations.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Translate        Translate a book into one of the racial languages you know.
Anthropology*Â Â Â Â Extract esoteric knowledge from other cultures.
Mantras*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Translate forgotten mantras and meditations.
MagicScroll      Prepare a scroll for magical writings.
Healing          Scribe a magic scroll with the words of healing.
Book            The common book or weighty tome for individual writers.
Verses*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Piece together scraps of verse from long-lost odes.
Stationery*Â Â Â Â Â Â Press intricate and personalized scrolls for mailing.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Sorcelglass      Scrolls that beautify vials, bottles, and glasses.
Compendium      Bind together large compendiums for organizations.
Highspeech*Â Â Â Â Â Â Decode the archaic dialects of past civilizations.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Protection      Scribe a magic scroll with the words of protection.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Stratigraphy*Â Â Â Â Dig further into the past while preserving your finds.
Contract*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Prepare official documents that are to be signed.
Incantations*Â Â Â Â Research arcane spellcraft and incantations.
Disruption      Scribe a magic scroll with the words of disruption.
Miniatures      Scribe figurines with magical script.
Eulogies*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Reference the biographies of great heroes.
Divine          Learn to write in the divine script.
Curses          Scribe a magic scroll with the words of curses.
PrintingPress    Copy books to make new originals.
Relics*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Unearth ancient artifacts from another time.
MagicTome        Only a bookbinder can use these special books.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Scroll          Prepare a simple parchment to be used as a scroll.
EnchantedScript  Enchanted script limits who may read it.
Archaeology*Â Â Â Â Investigate the ruins of civilization for artifacts.
Secrets*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Uncover the hidden knowledge from secret societies.
Pamphlet        Create a pamphlet for organizations.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Translate        Translate a book into one of the racial languages you know.
Anthropology*Â Â Â Â Extract esoteric knowledge from other cultures.
Mantras*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Translate forgotten mantras and meditations.
MagicScroll      Prepare a scroll for magical writings.
Healing          Scribe a magic scroll with the words of healing.
Book            The common book or weighty tome for individual writers.
Verses*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Piece together scraps of verse from long-lost odes.
Stationery*Â Â Â Â Â Â Press intricate and personalized scrolls for mailing.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Sorcelglass      Scrolls that beautify vials, bottles, and glasses.
Compendium      Bind together large compendiums for organizations.
Highspeech*Â Â Â Â Â Â Decode the archaic dialects of past civilizations.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Protection      Scribe a magic scroll with the words of protection.
Language        Learn a racial language and its writings.
Stratigraphy*Â Â Â Â Dig further into the past while preserving your finds.
Contract*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Prepare official documents that are to be signed.
Incantations*Â Â Â Â Research arcane spellcraft and incantations.
Disruption      Scribe a magic scroll with the words of disruption.
Miniatures      Scribe figurines with magical script.
Eulogies*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Reference the biographies of great heroes.
Divine          Learn to write in the divine script.
Curses          Scribe a magic scroll with the words of curses.
PrintingPress    Copy books to make new originals.
Relics*Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Unearth ancient artifacts from another time.
MagicTome        Only a bookbinder can use these special books.
* indicates a new ability, two of which I've taken from past suggestions (stationery/contracts).
Archaeology
CODE
Syntax: INVESTIGATE HERE
Reveals whether there are any artifacts or inscriptions in your location that
may be researched. You will only have the knowledge to transcribe or excavate
items that are in a language that you know, and the less of an artifact that
remains the more chance there is that it will fall to pieces, leaving only
detritus.
Example:
Your scholarly instincts reveal the historical artifacts here:
a tattered book(verses)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 17 pages intact.
an abandoned tome(highspeech)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 5 pages intact.
a half-buried chest(relics)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 2 compartments intact.
Reveals whether there are any artifacts or inscriptions in your location that
may be researched. You will only have the knowledge to transcribe or excavate
items that are in a language that you know, and the less of an artifact that
remains the more chance there is that it will fall to pieces, leaving only
detritus.
Example:
Your scholarly instincts reveal the historical artifacts here:
a tattered book(verses)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 17 pages intact.
an abandoned tome(highspeech)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 5 pages intact.
a half-buried chest(relics)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 2 compartments intact.
20 pages/compartments or more (up to 25 max) = 75% chance to successfully retrieve it
10 pages/compartments or more = 50% chance to successfully retrieve it
9 pages/compartments or less = 25% chance to successfully retrieve it
9 pages/compartments or less = 20% chance to destroy the item
Anthropology
CODE
Syntax: CONVERSE WITH
By probing a denizen who has been influenced into talking further, you may discover if
they have any scholarly information that you could use. Note that they will only
trust you enough to divulge this information if you converse in their native
tongue.
Example:
You mention conversationally that there are many myths and legends you have heard
regarding the Capital City of the Righteous Principality of New Celest, and wonder
aloud whether Meleris, the Keeper of the Pool of Stars can confirm them.
Meleris, the Keeper of the Pool of Stars mentions:
a half-remembered hymn(mantras)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
a meaningless phrase(highspeech)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
By probing a denizen who has been influenced into talking further, you may discover if
they have any scholarly information that you could use. Note that they will only
trust you enough to divulge this information if you converse in their native
tongue.
Example:
You mention conversationally that there are many myths and legends you have heard
regarding the Capital City of the Righteous Principality of New Celest, and wonder
aloud whether Meleris, the Keeper of the Pool of Stars can confirm them.
Meleris, the Keeper of the Pool of Stars mentions:
a half-remembered hymn(mantras)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
a meaningless phrase(highspeech)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
Probably a 100% chance to successfully harvest this, but there is a maximum of one thing of any type, and it might take multiple attempts.
Stratigraphy
CODE
Syntax: EXCAVATE
Power Cost: 2 (Any)
While natural weathering will gradually uncover artifacts over time, you can attempt
to unearth the next layer magically, though it will come at some cost to preserve
the relics that may be found in the strata below. This preservation will last for
one month, during which no scholar will be able to research in the location.
Power Cost: 2 (Any)
While natural weathering will gradually uncover artifacts over time, you can attempt
to unearth the next layer magically, though it will come at some cost to preserve
the relics that may be found in the strata below. This preservation will last for
one month, during which no scholar will be able to research in the location.
(If room is empty, has a chance of creating 1-2 resource nodes. If not empty, has a
chance of increasing the number of pages/compartments over the course of a RL day)
Secrets:
CODE
Syntax: RESEARCH SECRETS (HERE|WITH )
Produces: "a scrap of secret mugwump lore", "a scrap of secret aslaran lore", "a scrap of secret Ur'guard lore" etc
Read Effect: provides a 15% increase in influence (NOT debate) attack damage against that type of target.
Resource: Jewellers may use the secrets in various quantities to improve their creations, so that they may hold more enchantment charges for a limited time.
Produces: "a scrap of secret mugwump lore", "a scrap of secret aslaran lore", "a scrap of secret Ur'guard lore" etc
Read Effect: provides a 15% increase in influence (NOT debate) attack damage against that type of target.
Resource: Jewellers may use the secrets in various quantities to improve their creations, so that they may hold more enchantment charges for a limited time.
Mantras:
CODE
Syntax: RESEARCH MANTRAS (HERE|WITH )
Produces: "an elfen mantra on a slip of paper", "a Moondancer mantra on a slip of paper", etc
Read Effect: Cures a dramatics affliction. Also makes you immune to dramatics afflictions from any observer while in a
debate for a short time. The type of mantra just changes the message. Reading is on scroll balance.
Resource: None
Produces: "an elfen mantra on a slip of paper", "a Moondancer mantra on a slip of paper", etc
Read Effect: Cures a dramatics affliction. Also makes you immune to dramatics afflictions from any observer while in a
debate for a short time. The type of mantra just changes the message. Reading is on scroll balance.
Resource: None
Verses:
CODE
Syntax: RESEARCH VERSES (HERE|WITH )
Produces: "a fragment of merian verse", "a fragment of Glomdoring verse", etc
Read Effect: Reading to an influenced target of the relevant type will decrease the time remaining before they are influenceable again by a few minutes, randomized. Only useable once on a target.
Resource: Used by artisans on instruments, scribing certain quantities of verses will either make them last longer, or increase the improvement rate for players of that type for a limited time.
Produces: "a fragment of merian verse", "a fragment of Glomdoring verse", etc
Read Effect: Reading to an influenced target of the relevant type will decrease the time remaining before they are influenceable again by a few minutes, randomized. Only useable once on a target.
Resource: Used by artisans on instruments, scribing certain quantities of verses will either make them last longer, or increase the improvement rate for players of that type for a limited time.
Highspeech:
CODE
Syntax: RESEARCH HIGHSPEECH (HERE|WITH )
Produces: "a torn page of ancient dwarf", "a torn page of ancient tae'dae", etc
Read Effect: Read to a village leader of the appropriate type, temporarily increases the chance of gaining amnesty, and slightly decreases the parley cost.
Resource: Spellcrafters can combine highspeech pages of all races with other resources to enchant living tomes. When dropped, it will float behind the owner and generate charges whenever the owner uses an influence attack, up to a maximum of 20 charges. When charged, the tome may be ordered to orate at an NPC, which causes a large amount of influence damage in one hit, or babble at a player, which causes no damage but emote amusing influence-type attacks at them over time as charges are depleted. The tome has only a little bit of health while dropped and can be killed.
Produces: "a torn page of ancient dwarf", "a torn page of ancient tae'dae", etc
Read Effect: Read to a village leader of the appropriate type, temporarily increases the chance of gaining amnesty, and slightly decreases the parley cost.
Resource: Spellcrafters can combine highspeech pages of all races with other resources to enchant living tomes. When dropped, it will float behind the owner and generate charges whenever the owner uses an influence attack, up to a maximum of 20 charges. When charged, the tome may be ordered to orate at an NPC, which causes a large amount of influence damage in one hit, or babble at a player, which causes no damage but emote amusing influence-type attacks at them over time as charges are depleted. The tome has only a little bit of health while dropped and can be killed.
Eulogies:
CODE
Syntax: RESEARCH EULOGIES (HERE|WITH )
Produces: "a Paladin hero's eulogy upon a chipped tablet", "a trill heroine's eulogy upon a chipped tabled", etc
Read Effect: Reading the eulogy to a deceased target (soul or body) of the relevant type will restore some of their mana (Don't know enough about how experience loss works to know what is reasonable).
Resource: Poisonists may study the tablets, combining certain quantities of them with certain poisons to produce anti-venom potions that do not prevent or cure any poison affliction, but provides the person with a chance of restoring some health and mana when a poison afflicts them.
Produces: "a Paladin hero's eulogy upon a chipped tablet", "a trill heroine's eulogy upon a chipped tabled", etc
Read Effect: Reading the eulogy to a deceased target (soul or body) of the relevant type will restore some of their mana (Don't know enough about how experience loss works to know what is reasonable).
Resource: Poisonists may study the tablets, combining certain quantities of them with certain poisons to produce anti-venom potions that do not prevent or cure any poison affliction, but provides the person with a chance of restoring some health and mana when a poison afflicts them.
Incantations:
CODE
Syntax: RESEARCH INCANTATIONS (HERE|WITH )
Produces: "a faded scroll inscribed with an elfen incantation", "a faded scroll inscribed with a Shofangi incantation", etc
Read Effect: provides you with the race/guild appearance temporarily, though any action other than movement will cause it to drop.
Resource: Cooks can combine various incantations with their food, which makes it too enticing for all but the cook's
allies to resist, so that certain targets will immediately grab and gobble down the food if it is left in a location.
Produces: "a faded scroll inscribed with an elfen incantation", "a faded scroll inscribed with a Shofangi incantation", etc
Read Effect: provides you with the race/guild appearance temporarily, though any action other than movement will cause it to drop.
Resource: Cooks can combine various incantations with their food, which makes it too enticing for all but the cook's
allies to resist, so that certain targets will immediately grab and gobble down the food if it is left in a location.
Relics:
CODE
Syntax: RESEARCH RELICS HERE
Produces: "a strange relic bearing furrikin markings", "a strange relic bearing dracnari markings", etc
Resource: A sufficient quantity of the same type of relic can be assembled by tinkers and then embellished by artisans,
which can produce limited room/interaction messages set by the artisan.
Produces: "a strange relic bearing furrikin markings", "a strange relic bearing dracnari markings", etc
Resource: A sufficient quantity of the same type of relic can be assembled by tinkers and then embellished by artisans,
which can produce limited room/interaction messages set by the artisan.
Unknown2009-09-16 05:50:54
No splitting poisons up. Few people take it for a reason, and it is not due to limitation via highmagic/lowmagic (though I could care less if you could learn the skill irrespective of possessing either).
Syrian2009-09-16 07:11:50
Okay, I added some effects for the proposed Highmagic-only Bookbinding skillset, would they be feasible?
