First off, I know how Avenger works, having been screwed by it numerous times.

It's come to my attention that if someone slays you and you gain suspect, and then attempt to attack them without declaring, you are able to attack though you lose suspect. Avenger -then- checks to see if you have declared or not on the next hit. Let me break this down for people, and define why I have a problem with this:

Ruiku steps into Celest and slays me, though I vitae. He runs outside with me giving chase, hitting him the whole time. He steps right outside the city confines, I hit him once, BOOM I've lost suspect. The next time I try to hit him, Avenger checks to see if I've declared, and if not, it won't let me hit.

My idea: Shouldn't Avenger check for declare BEFORE removing suspect on that first hit?

How about we change it the other way, so that any hit will strip suspect, even in enemy territory - I have to say, being entirely unable to defend yourself is a stupid position to be placed into by mechanics. We saw especially bad situations about a year ago, when (someone) was jumping people in kephera. Even when he died, he could vitae, batbane/bardoon them and there was nothing they could do as they couldn't gust him out or anything else that was aggro on him without getting hit by vengeance.

Basically, if you're going to be unhittable by avenger, make it act like a targetted grace, almost - you have to forfeit that protection if you want to fight that person.

So you give up status against them, or you can't defend your org? That makes it so that jumping people on prime reduces the number of their defenders, which is ridiculous.

Thoros used to take advantage of that loophole by running in and out of Serenwilde until you hit him and thus lost suspect, and then leaving, to clear his suspect statuses. I bugged it, it got "fixed", and then that broke something else, and then it got reverted. So we're probably stuck with this. Basically, the only thing stopping people from abusing it is that not many people know about it.

Not many people knew about it. Past tense.

It was classified as a bug and even fixed, which tells me that anyone found doing it intentionally now is abusing a bug.

Avenger does seem like a pain, although it is implanted to prevent farming of people on Prime, but it seems like either way, it will be lose-lose.

Edit: PK Flags ftw.

Thing that annoys me most is what does and doesn't count as enemy territory, the Isle of light, for instance, doesn't, meaning we can't defend it easily, but Ladantines ship does count as his territory, which seems fair enough untill you realise that it means we can't remove him from the Inner Sea without the possibility of giving mags a free kill.

Isle of Light counts as Inner Sea territory, meaning anyone enemied to Kelpies can be killed on it.

Damn you kelpies, I was only a boy, I didn't know!

Right, but not everyone that decided to be annoying on the Isle of Light has killed a kelpie, or else they've made sure to get themselves unenemied to the kelpies so that they're protected whilst damaging Celest.

Rest assured, Lawliet, Celest has found ways to be just as annoying in the SoD with hindering Ladantine's revival.

I'm sure they have, and I'm sure it'd be better if the relavant places were in mag territory, wouldn't it?

According to Munsia it's not a bug, it's designed like that.

Also, what Lendren said is exactly what people are doing.

Well... as the person using it, of course there's some self-interest in stating it's not a bug. No idea if it is either way, but I'm not positive you should believe whole-heartedly in the "It's not a bug!" line. It's just one of those wonky things with Avenger where sometimes it works one way and sometimes another and nobody knows why.

Sorry about that, I forgot the /sarcasm tag when I posted that.

I dunno if this was suggested or not. But, why not make it so that you -have- to declare first before you can attack anyone regardless of whether the person you intend to attack has suspect/vengeance status. Should you have one, declaring would take away the status they have on you.