I have been reminded of an issue that I have with druids and wiccans again.

To illustrate, skills broken down for by archetype

Druid = 0 guild unique, 1 archetype unique, 2 complimentary archetype shared, 2 different archetype shared
Wiccan = 0 guild, 1 archetype, 3 comp., 1 diff.
Warrior = 0 guild, 6 archetype, 0 comp., 1 diff.
Mage = 1 guild, 3 archetype, 2 comp., 0 diff.
Guardian = 1 guild, 0 archetype, 2 comp., 2 diff.
Bard = 1 guild, 1 archetype, 0 comp., 2 diff.
Monk = 1 guild, 2 archetype, 0 comp., 1 diff.

What I'd like is to be able to move something into the guild unique columns for druids and wiccans (warriors are a bit iffy given that it is entirely possible for them to have an archetype unique skill set)

This comes up sometimes for envoys, report 482 is an example, and I have vague recollections of a precedent involving druidry and dreamweaving.

Given that it is rather obvious that there is a way to have ability availability conditional on whether the player possesses other abilities or skills (or perhaps a specific skill rank percentage) it seems likely that these guilds could, effectively, be given a unique skill simply through extended use of this.

Moon, Stag, Night and Crow could be expanded and/or differentiated depending on whether the user has knighthood or nature in combination with these abilities. I'd certainly like to see covens expanded a bit, but I have mixed feelings about warriors remaining equals to wiccans in this respect, with this "phasing" of the skill guilds get abilities appropriate and unique to them, the issues of whether or not it is overpowered for x class isn't a question because they'll never have it even though it is... technically present in a skill they have.

The other option of course (may require time travel for everyone to accept it though) would be to take the current totems specs away from the warriors, give them their own unique totems spec based around both commune spirits and then refurbish the current specs but that seems far less likely even though the coolness would be greater.a

I'm mainly putting this up here because I want to see what the feelings are regarding this. I'm a bit disappointed at the idea that should more forests ever be released, that after how shiny and new the cities were, the forests seem like they will be forced into the mold.
Bear and Lion have the potential to be rather different. But River and Sun will be expected to have covens, cone, conclave, rage/terror clones, an aura as trans ability. Potentially cowslip fae for Sun users, Snowdrops for River if included. We've already seen the sun fae from memory and possibly river fae too, though their actual effects might not be known.
Then we expand and look at the likelyhood that they will inevitably be expected to have altars. Which will likely teleport them to an aetherbubble linked to river/sun, allow them to cone solo and allow any member of the org to join.

Cliff-notes:
* The homogenisation of wiccans and druids is rather boring. If further forests are added, they can be expected to be rather predictable skill-wise as opposed to the cities.
* Differentiation is hard to achieve as their primary(normally the unique skill), it rather forcibly shared with their opposing guild.

So the suggestions are:
* Refurbish the totem specs, focusing on guild unique abilities.
* The less likely, for multiple reasons, creation of a skill unique to each commune warrior guild allowing the druids and wiccans to take ownership of their spirits totems spec.
* Belatedly it occurs that it may be possible to revise nature, considering that the prime base skill in every other archetype is the mark of the archetype it is very odd that they are the exception to this standard and strangely by being the same as everyone else in this regard it would actually make them different.


sidenote: I hate it when I try to make a short post and it ends up being lengthy

The problem with splitting nature between Druidry and Wicca is that the primary of Guardians are Cosmic because they are tied to Cosmic planes, and Mages are Elementalism, because they are tied to the Elemental plane. Both Druids and Wiccans are tied to the Ethereal Plane, so Nature is the skill most suited for them.

True, but at the same time that comes off as a bit of a cop out, wicca and druidry are focused on rather different aspects of the natural world, ephemeral vs physical. Again that was mainly a tangent that popped into my mind right at the end but is rather annoying now that I've thought about it.

I'm in support of this, though I'm not sure if the admins would be willing to accept proposed changes.

One of the things that worries me about the eventual return of Ackleberry is that Wicca seem only surpassed in boredom by Druidry and Hexes, so I am all for this.

One thing that really stuck in my mind when I was writing this is the excitement with which we awaited the Illuminati and Institute, even having the full aeonics and paradigmatics skills active there was still so much more to come.

After the excitement of learning harmonics and playing with all the new abilities, Ackleberry and Jojobo just seem like there going to be a let down in comparison. Especially if a similar release method is employed no matter whether the wiccans or warriors are released first, the second release seems like it will primarily be a moment of "...finally" rather than "omg squee shiny new *incomprehensible babbling*"



The goal is to, in one way or another, give a unique skill to these guilds. The list is, effectively, in one order of likelihood.
It seems, in some ways, easiest to tear the skills apart, leave them shared but actually very different.
Replacing the current totems specs with a new spec for warriors only has the potential to be even easier, but has more issues when it comes to acceptance (plus potential further issues depending on what abilities become unavailable. e.g. bonding).
Replacing nature is obviously the most difficult and seems likely to have a far more profound impact on the guilds, it would also be the most difficult to reverse.

I've ignored this for a while, since I doubt there will ever by anything done about it, but yeah, having only three individual abilities that I don't share with another guild is ridiculous, and it makes balancing things horrible. When you compare Wiccans and Druids to the newer classes, the difference is striking.

I guess expanding upon what Saran said at the start in more detail.

• Warrior: Tracking/Athletics/4 shared main specs
• Mage: Phantasms/TP/TK/unique main specs
• Bard: Glamours/unique main specs
• Monk: unique main specs/Psychometabolism
• - 'Kephara' Monks: Harmony
• - 'Illithoid' Monks: Stealth
• Guardian: Unique main specs
• Wicca: 3 unique skills in main spec(4 if you count Foxglove/Bluebell)
• Druid: 4 unique skills in main spec(5 for Blacktalon if you count Infestation)

Wiccas and Guardians share their secondary with Warriors. Both Wiccans have the same tert skills, which Guardians also access, though it varies by guild. Guardians also have Tarot, though shared with city Bards, but they at least have unique main skillsets. Wicca varies by 3 skills between Moondancers and Shadowdancers (Maiden/Barghest, Mother/Redcap, Crone/Slaugh).

Druids share Dreamweaving and Runes with mages, Ecology with commune Bards, their secondary with Warriors, and their main varies by 4 skills between Blacktalon and Hartstone (Murder/Squirrels, Stag/Crow pet, Spiders/Pathtwist, and Scarab/Darkseed)

It would be nice to see more divergence in abilities between the Wicca and Druid skill sets, but I don't really know what to do about that because it would essentially require building semi-new skill sets for each of them which would be a months long project for the admins probably.

At the least, I hope if new Druid/Wiccans are ever introduced, they're not shoved into same homogenized structure that the current guilds are.

I'm totally ok with a months long project for the admins. Wiccans and Druids are outdated. I understand the flavor of the skills and why they're shared, but there needs to be a way to do that without making us almost mirrors mechanically. And really, it involves Faethorn, just have Maeve change something, nothing new there.

EDIT: If they release new communes who have brand new skills for Wiccans and Druids, I'm going to cry (and jump ship to Ackleberry immediately either way), since it will be a backhanded way of saying "We screwed up with the earlier communes but aren't going to fix it." And if they DON'T have brand new skills, it means they don't see the issue and we'll never be fixed, so I'm not sure which is better, really.

You guys talk about it like we're going to see more organisations in the near future. Unless there is a sudden influx of active players, we're not.

You may be, but Estarra probably isn't.

@Rika: Ackle/Jojo aren't the main point we're getting at, not me at least. They're just an added sidenote of "The outdated feeling wiccans/druids have will suck even more if new ones ever show up."

I know that. Doesn't change the fact that we really should be fixed. Wiccan really seems like an obsolete class some days.

I feel kind of bad for warriors, too, but they've always been the class that is the most versatile and least tied to the commune or city they live in. If they wanted to give up that versatility and have each org get a different Knighthood spec, I'd totally support that.

If there'll be any admin comment on report 482, that might help us see the direction they're looking at.

Is that the Night instakill report? I'm still annoyed with you for sticking that as a Night report and not a Wiccan one, but in this context I can see the point.

You know, it's really all Gloms fault. Hartstone and Moondancers were totally unique until Blacktalon and Shadowdancers showed up and started biting our style. D: /forumrp

four if you include foxglove/bluebell



erk forgot about the pets so yeah druidry and wicca are only differentiated by four abilities.



This is the main issue in suggesting a change because of this particular situation there are multiple approaches that depend on how far the admin are willing to go, if anywhere.



Pretty much, though Maeve is her own barrel of laughs.



I'm not expecting them out for quite a while, the actual reason for bringing them up is more to highlight the vast difference between the impact of releasing a commune and releasing a city. (With the original archetypes) Where they spent six months working on the skills for the cities it seems highly unlikely that it would take even as long as it did for the release of the sentinels/templars.

It's hard not to get a negative impression of an archetype when we can expect such a difference in the investment required to introduce a new guild to it.

I wonder, are you guys talking about underwhelming in combat or underwhelming in flavour compared to the newer classes?

Mostly flavor, but the homogenization and shared skills has given me some issues with coming up for ideas for envoy reports, since almost any suggestions will affect another archetype. So many ideas shot down 'cus "that'd be too good/shitty for Bards/Warriors/Mages". ):

Yep. There is literally nothing we can change that won't affect the balance of another guild, unless we can make it guild specific within a shared skillset.

And I'd argue that Wiccans are falling behind in combat. I can't say they're terrible, but they seem dated.

EDIT: And even outside of combat, really. Look at Leprechaun. It's almost worthless. It's a shitty version of Acquisitio, basically. Yeah, he can steal 25 gold per hit if it's in your inventory, but even in a prolonged fight with someone who maybe just sold some credits, that's not worth the power. I don't know of anyone who doesn't just get an enchant and ignore their leprechaun. Hell, we even had the leprechaun event that would have been a grand way to introduce something new to the skill, but nope.

I would say that is more because there isn't a good wiccan fighter who likes to show it, left, rather than because of the class itself.