So, I was complaining this morning about the lack of applicability, in some ways, of the Stealth skillset. Don't get me wrong, the skillset is amazing over all, especially with Veil and Deepcover. But several skills which should be awesome ((Rooftops, infiltrate, stalk, i.e.)) go relatively unused, mostly because of mechanics (Lack of rooftops, statues and guard and totems making stalking or infiltrating anywhere interesting unimportant impossible).

So here's what I'm proposing, the addition of a new, non-combat skill. The mechanics are kinda like ghost, or dreambody, but here's how I imagine it would work:

You must be Sneaking.
CAMOUFLAGE will allow you to move through the shadows entirely unseen, including Thirdeye. Conventional methods of scrying will work as if you were Deepcovered (That is, if you are wearing a mask of Thoros, the target will see Thoros in the room when you use such scrying methods that allow you to do that. Scent, etc will also show this way. If you are not wearing a mask, then scries function as normal. This may have to an include a restriction on psymet monks and their anti-scry ability). The purpose this allows is for the spirit of subterfuge around which Stealth was based to be properly applied, and the following restriction while camouflaged apply:

You cannot make any offensive actions (i.e. any actions that would cause you to lose deepcover). This includes a buffer amount of time after dropping out of camouflage (i.e. an uncureable peace effect that lasts 90 seconds, or something). This restriction is so that Camouflage couldn't be abused to kill Denizens/People in certain areas by essentially walking up to them and dropping out of camouflage. Additionally there would be a cooldown or buffer on using it again, nor could you use it within a certain amount of time after being afflicted, damaged, or wounded. This includes things that don't necessarily harm you (i.e. being debated or mana drained), but not things which you would initiate yourself (an ability costing mana, i.e.). This may extend to a restriction where you cannot make any offensive actions in the area where you dropped camouflage. The construction of this ability ought to be careful to allow ganks or kills of any kind, as it should be a strickly non-combative sneaky ability. For instance, off-peak ganks where someone camouflages past guards, or totems, drops camouflage, and then attacks a target after the peace wears off should be avoided. This moratorium would also effect teleportation.

You cannot interact with objects

You can say and emote normally, but doing so kinda defeats the purpose

You cannot use any means of teleportation, magical or otherwise.

Staying in Camouflage inflicts an endurance drain. This is more effective than putting a time limit on it, as it avoids being too short or too long, by being dependant on the user's endurance. The endurance drain shouldn't be so slight that it could be recovered passively, or would allow the user an unnaturally long time camouflaged (an entire hour, i.e.), but not be so great as to severely limit its use. Ten-Twenty minutes, perhaps, is a good timing for a a Demigod Stealth user (Arbitrarily chosen). Additionally, you cannot use any ability or item (sleep, i.e.) which would allow you to recover endurance. This is why it is important to not make the ability too short. Regeneration of endurance can continue as otherwise would normally, but should always drain a percentage of what your endurance regeneration. Perhaps this is too hard to code, but this is supposed to limit, for instance, Great Rune of Bodily Fortitude. what I imagine is something like this: Lets SUPPOSE the amount decided upon for the drain is a tic of 100 endurance (Arbitrary, and over however much time, not important). As I don't know exactly how the Great Runes work, or would work, Lets also suppose you could stack them. What I want to avoid is the regeneration outpacing the drain, thereby allowing you to camouflage indefinitely. Doing the math, I realize this is not an effective way to avoid that problem. A solution of percentage endurance drain incentivizes NOT buying one regeneration rune, but DOES incentivize buying a lot of them, if they stack up to a certain point. The math I'm referring to is this: Lets suppose buying one rune gives me 100 endurance over the same period (as if, but bear with me) as the 100 endurance drain. Without this restriction, I could hypothetically camouflage forever depending on the distribution of the ticks, but with the percentage of, say, 50%, I'm draining 150 and recovering 100. But notice what happens if I have two runes: I regenerate 200 and drain 100, and with a percentage of 50%, I drain 200 and recover 200. Please correct me if this problem is solved by the pre existing mechanics of the rune?

If Camouflage would drain you into negative endurance and you reach 0, you die (The effort to remain hidden has proved to be too much for Tau's heart).

You can use Stealth abilities (except Veil) or other abilities that would not drop you out of deepcover (scent, i.e.) that doesn't involve you interacting with objects in the room (other than your arti nose, I guess). Additionally, you could speak over your own aethers while camouflaged. The limitation on these things is that by doing so there is a chance (33%? 25%?) of sending a room message along the lines of, "Something stirs in the shadows here"

Abilities which give any sort of immunity or large buff to some factor or another (Serpent, Tripleflash, for instance) Can be used neither while camouflaged, nor in the grace period immediately following the point where camouflage wears off.

What about indigo/violet/kether/chokmah/eye sigils? Admittedly I don't know how Indigo or Chokmah or eye sigils actually work, but I think they actually reveal dreambodies in all cases. since the Camouflager is not drifting the land bodiless, technically this should really apply, but Chokmaw and Indigo should give a chance (50%) to see when camouflaged users enter or leave a room (Two chances to see someone passing through is ~100%, only the lucky get through unseen). Eye sigils will have a chance (50%) to announce in the room (An eye sigil glows as it detects a camouflaged person nearby). Kether and Violet will uncamouflage stealth users.

What does this have to do with Harmony? Well I don't want to "buff" Stealth (Not really sure how this is much of a buff, it really just applies to politics, Its not supposed to apply to combat at anytime, even though that doesn't mean it won't, I guess someone will find a way to exploit it). The idea is to bring Stealth more into line with the thought behind how it seems to me it was designed, and the devs don't want to buff Stealth either. Its already an excellent skillset. So what I propose Harmony should get, basically, is a Camouflage-only Indigo-Violet/ Chokmah-Kether in one skill. That is, a passive chance to detect and the ability to pull people out of camouflage as if they were Myth Low/High magic or whatever, so as not to force the counterparts to Stealth monks to spend a large amount of lessons to counter them. This is consistent with the flavour of Hamrony, as they're detecting a subtle shift in the auras around them (Or some bull like that )


Thoughts?


These restrictions are set up in such a way as to allow the user to:
Be Sneaky, effectively
Have a mid-range chance to be caught
Inflict great punishment for being caught (you have to be really lucky in order to not die)

So, like other IRE's phase abilities, but depreciated?



Indigo and chockmah give the CASTER the names only of all out of phase people in the room at the exact time of casting. This includes glamour users put out of phase. It's not a continual defense by any means, the only such defense is the Crow paint. Chandeliers reveal any time a dreamweaver moves past them, but not that dreamweaver's name.

Eye sigils don't do anything like what most people think they do. Eye sigils prevent souls (dead people, NOT dreamweaver) from moving into that room. They prevent dreamweavers from picking up anything in the eye sigil room (including the eye sigil) and from using coalesce to move their body into the room.


I'd like to point out that harmony has an air chant that lts them sense the movement of shrouded people, perhaps that would extend to the movement of camouflaged people, but not reveal their name, just as its current power does not reveal names.


I suggest that any skill that puts the stealth user out of phase like that would be stopped only by distort when it tics (as prismatic and digging are disrupted) and by obstacles such as doors. Perhaps SEARCH and things like WHIRL STAFF would reveal or have a chance to reveal the person. Chandeliers also, perhaps.

As is in this suggestion, I don't think the skill would have any use. Making it more like other IRE's phases would make it a bit more useful perhaps (making it stronger), but stealth can already sneak past guards, and fool people well enough. I don't think it's worth the headache.


EDIT: I also missed the part that made this "Inflict great punishment for being caught (you have to be really lucky in order to not die)". Being knocked out of camouflage (which is an existing skill, would need another name probably) wouldn't spell death, it just means you... walk back out.

EDIT2: Moved some stuff around for better organization and to break up the giant quote.

I recall seeing Xazlaels name when the weird/chandelier dreamweaving bug was about several weeks back. Are you sure it doesn't show the name?

Yes, very much like IREs other out of phase abilities but depreciated. The problem that I run into, really, is that Stealth is an excellent skillset and really needs no improvement or change whatsoever, but I desire to make certain parts of it to be functional. The idea is, as I tried to say, non-combat oriented. yes, stealth has abilities to get around guards, but those abilities have short cooldowns (compared to what I imagine Camouflage or whatever you want to call it would have), and hinges on mask use. What I intended in this skill is to give stealth users a longer-lasting, org-territory spying skill, while simultaneously making it restricted enough that feasibly it couldn't be used to take advantage of novices or anything which would resemble ganks or backdoor kills or griefing. Other Phase abilities IRE has implemented have combat-oriented goals, and the skills I aim to supplement (infiltrate, or stalk i.e.), if they have any combat use at all, that use is very limited and situational. The propensity to use these skills for information-gathering and politics however is pretty great.

I did not realize, obviously, that was how Indigo works, but of course chandeliers ought to work, and if indigo works like that then use search or twirl staff ought to work as well

Really the way the skill was put together anticipated use in org territory where totems or statues restrict movement, and relies on, when out of phase in org territory, its generally difficult to get out without being killed (especially for those of us with Specs, for instance).

I had intended to include in my original post, but it escaped my attention, the ability would cost no power to use on activation, but 5-10p when it drops to avoid use of skills like Deepcover and to some extent Veil or Ghostwalk afterwards.

As someone camouflaged cannot interact with objects, they couldn't open doors, so that's not really a problem

Deepcover is simply too short and too limited by the use of masks in order to accomplish what I imagine this skill ought to accomplish - essentially what I want to promote and facilitate is events like Serenwilde's (I think) discussion about treaties which was transcribed and mailed out to various organizations, and the ability of the Nekotai and Ninjakari to act more like ninjas/spies, which I imagine is at the heart of the skillset.

Edit: By trying to limit it's combat use, and its strength, it becomes more a skill-based re-orientation of the idea/background/goal/'mythos' if you will of the two guilds, rather than being simply construed or viewed as "Oh lol Stealth buff, Stealth is good enough, don't need it"

I'd like to point out that in forests, movement is only practically restricted at the borders of that organization, as it isn't possible to cover the entire forest with efficacious totems. As long as they aren't able to get up distort before you 'bix out, you'd be in no danger.

I'm not sure what you meant about the treaty thing there, you want this to be some way to spy on letters?

I don't think stealth's more powerful stealth stuff will or should get away from using masks. I also don't think that the stealth user will be able to get any useful spying done with this skill, trust this coming from a Dreamweaver. With infiltrate you'll get a liiitle bit more , but if anything really important is being said and there are ways to check for listeners, you can bet they will all be used extensively. As with thievery, Lusternia is very light on actual spying.

I'm more on the side of "That sounds like a pain to code/mess with for little gain". Perhaps some change to existing mechanics would achieve the same goal more easily.

Spying on political discussions is usually done by either A] bond critters, B] dreamweavers or C] traitors to the org being spied on.

Yes? That's true...

That's a bit of a shame, really. Well-done espionage has wonderful potential, be it for political machinations, combat strategy, and so forth.

Of course, all it'd really get used for is spying on mudsexers.

the event in question I am referring to, if I remember correctly (and other Gloms who remember this should feel free to chime in, as I don't want to say who it was who retrieved the information), was a discussion between Hallifax and Serenwilde over the desirability of implanting Hallifaxians in the Shofangi guild for some purpose or other I don't remember. Except, the transcript of events that took place in Serenwilde were achieved by a person standing there who was not in Dreambody, and who was not a traitor to the organization. So CLEARLY the persons involved did not look hard enough when they had that public conversation. This is probably an outlier, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

There also isn't really anything else in Stealth to change into this. Giving Deepcover a longer duration would certainly be much stronger buff than is truly necessary. I also don't see how it would be too hard to code, given all of the existing phase mechanics. This is really only a slight variable on them (granted some of the solutions I proposed might not quite work out, but I was really just trying to word it to avoid abuse). That being said, I'm always stuck in an object-oriented mindset, where Lusternia is not coded this way, so what do I know?

Referring to ways in which people already spy to comment in someway about the ineffectiveness of what I'm proposing (I'm assuming what the post in question is getting at) is in some ways begging the question. I realize that the method I'm proposing is not a way in which people currently spy for things, that's why I am proposing what I am proposing. Just because there are general ways of gathering information doesn't mean new methods couldn't be introduced, especially since it is part of what the Stealth skillset tries to do.

You claim that Stealth's more powerful abilities should not get away from using masks, and I do not disagree, but in the same breath you claim that my proposition is too little gain for too much effort, or is weaker than other similar phasing abilities. If the ability I'm proposing is not one of Stealth's more powerful abilities, then restricting it to the use of masks may or may not be unnecessary, but certainly not necessary in absolute terms. If it is then claimed that it would be one of Stealth's more powerful abilities, then I admit to some confusion as I tried to ensure this was not the case, at least in the relevant, combat-related notions of "powerful abilities" (see: Deepcover, Veil).

I was under the impression that totems (like statutes, but I don't want to reopen THAT issue) on the inside afflicted when enemies walked in as they do at the borders. Or is it just bonded totems that do this?

Basically, right now Stealth is chiefly useful for sneaking past hard-coded defenses and for combat. Tau is trying to propose a way to let the skillset also help with 'soft' spying, where information is being gathered rather than a raid being started.

She is, in fact, specifically avoiding trying to have this skill make Stealth any better (or worse, I suppose) at the first two things.

Speaking as someone who's been both a stealth monk and a dreamweaver, a dreamweaver has a big advantage in eavesdropping-type situations because it takes the active use of a skill to find them, whereas a monk can simply be seen with thirdeye. Both are, of course, relatively easy to detect and counter for those who think to do so - but a monk is significantly more likely to be noticed even by the unwary.

It's sad, really, that dreamweavers and stealth monks are both worse at spying than Crow users, ecologists and mages. I'd love to see that change. On a purely aesthetic level, though, I'll admit I'd rather make Camouflage the low-level skill that gives basic shroud, and Sneak the skill Tau describes here. It'd fit how the skills work to how they're described better.

The skill can be called camouflage, no rule stops you from using the same skill name twice (which we often do).

It would fit so perfectly if we switched them around, though. Camouflage obscures you wherever you are, whatever you do, and only does so much. 'Stepping into the shadows' actually hides you and has restrictions.

Doesn't that make so much more sense?

The dirty secret about spying in Lusternia is that no one has any dirty secrets to spy on. Need the secret passcode that gets you into the inner sanctum? It won't work for you anyway. How about the big battle plans? Ninety-nine times out of a hundred they are "hey, wanna go raid?" If there ever were a real secret, someone orghopping or alt-abusing it would reveal it in no time flat, which is why everything's had to be built so that there are no secrets that really matter. The only reason we have guilds and skillsets that allude to sneaking and spying is because Estarra likes them because of a past history with them in other games as well as in fiction, not because there's really a role for them in Lusternia as it actually exists. Same reason we have lots of stuff that claims to be about support roles but no class actually fits a support role, because Lusternia just doesn't really have a place for support classes.

How exactly are they worse than mages? If you're referring to thoughtstealers, they are easily circumvented, are easily detectable, can be removed if you have critique or an illusionist on hand. There is also a way to defend against them through shields and one other method that is admittedly unreliable 90% of the time. Though it can be used at range.
Infiltrate isn't detected when it's used, but is noticeable on diagnose, but can't be used at range, I think. But it allows you to liisten in on city and guild channels. Unsure of anything else it can listen to.
But, beyond infiltrate they have other skills that allow them to spy, compared to the one that mages have. Each has their advantages and disadvantages, but I don't believe their worse off than mages(can't comment on crow users and ecologist).
Dreamweavers also require an active skill and/or a chandelier to notice. Advantages and disadvantages, but I don't think one is better or worse than the other.

There are ways they can be useful. Sure, you can't effectively spy on 'battle plans' or grand-strategy sorts of things - but tactical spying can be valuable (Phantasms is good at this), and so can political and operational spying (the latter, I'm basically referring to during events and other unusual times when new policy is being discussed and orgs are making decisions relatively quickly).

Also, spying makes things like Fainites v. Glomdoring even more entertaining.



Bad ninja, sneaking in while I type.

Yeah, stolen thoughts and stolen vision are easy to deal with, but they're used for that same kind of tactical intelligence I was talking about above - unless they get them right off, you've probably already got what you came for.

That's exactly what infiltrate does. Our other spying skills are eavesdrop, masquerade, deepcover and veil (not counting several largely useless ones - we can also do lots of things to mess with follow mechanics and examine objects in other people's inventory).

Deepcover and veil are both basically about raiding - their other applications are minimal. That leaves us with eavesdrop and masquerade. Masquerade is reliant on masks (hard to get, wear out quick), and eavesdrop suffers from the problem I tried to outline above - we have no good way of hiding from people who just run into us and have thirdeye on. And since we have to be there in person, we're more fucked over in the process then dreamweavers (though I suppose we gain the benefit that if we're eavesdropping, we're not in the room with our targets to be detected there, we're still there in the flesh, which sucks).

Infiltrate and eavesdrop both have to come from somewhere. Someone strolling by at our elevation can just run into us. That doesn't happen to dreamweavers - or crow eyes, or really most other spying techniques I'm talking about.

Newp, totems that fire are only the bonded ones.

I'm with Lendren on this one, nothing important is spy-able and things you might be able to spy on (provided you happen to be already there at the right time when the right things are being said, not likely) aren't of any use to outsiders. You may get a lucky spy on some internal Seren policy changes, but that doesn't really do you any good. I promise you if something really secret is going on it will remain really secret if you are in the room or not.

Eh, Masks aren't terribly hard to get if you are organized about corpse destruction. Get in a good raid and you should gather at least 10 masks, provided you grab up corpses quick and aren't having to share.

I thought that mentioning other ways people already 'spy' was odd also, not sure what was up with that.

Dreamweave spying has... other problems. The will drain for doing anything is pretty steep, any other dreamweaver can sense you sleeping on plane with dreamweave sleepsense, and your body is totally vunerable to things like timerkills. There do exist passive methods of detecting dreamweavers, as well as ways to lose a dreamweaver guaranteed (crossing enemy territory lines being one of them). Even with all of those aside, in drifting around, I have never heard anyone say anything beyond "Hey, where did that thing I just drop go?" after I envelop, or "A dreamweaver, kill it."

I personally don't think that stealth needs more ways to get past guards and defenses, it already holds a near monopoly on that in skillsets. Dreamweavers can coalesce, but I must remind you that this isn't possible in eye sigil-ed rooms, and puts you off balance and prone for upwards of 20 seconds, totally obvious and killable.

I guess I'm still just not sure what it is you're trying to achieve with this proposition. Spying honestly isn't useful enough to warrant a big new mechanic, and potential drawbacks would lower the use of it.

Also, during world events, you shouldn't be looking to attack each other, honestly. If the world is going to explode, we should all work together, and pretty much always do.

EDIT: The statement that echos around this also is "Dreamweaving isn't for spying".

What, spying totally has perks. Anyone remember how Xenthos spied on Razenth having a cup of tea with Nifilhema (spiraled into the arguably most infamous event of Lusternia)? Granted, Celina defected a few days afterwards, but still, it was the spying that came first and alerted the forests of the Xion Initiative plans.

Other than that, you basically contend that spying is useless, and somehow despite being useless will disrupt events and make them more violent. Actually, I'm pretty sure being able to sneak peeks at what the enemy is doing/discussing in the middle of an event is a wonderful way to make it more interesting, more complex, and more a real event rather than a short-lived exercise in roleplay.

Your point about masks is well-taken, but it also highlights one of the problems: most of the people who are going to be on the other side of a raid are higher-level, more-engaged players who it's easier to identify as not being whoever the masked monk is.

Again: we're trying to find ways to make spying easier without giving us the ability to do anything more about guards or defenses. The very thing you keep calling a problem is exactly not what we're discussing. If you think spying is useless, and we don't make it more relevant to security, what does it matter to you?

Also, I think that this discussion at large underestimates the value of little things. For instance, If I manage to infiltrate, or eavesdrop, lets say, at the megalith without getting caught. You're right, I'm not going to learn about a raid on Etheral Glomdoring, absolutely. But I may find out that Xarcon and Nymerya, for instance, are fighting. Its much easier to convince someone else in Magnagora to say something, or to spread rumours at the right time than it is to convince someone to be treahcerous and give me information. Does this happen all the time? Absolutely not, but divisions like this can work to my favour. Plus, I'm a big fan of conflict between houses ( I'll save the House-Wars, like Divine Wars, although we see how successful that idea went down in practice, for another thread)

But Veyda (I think?) is absolutely correct in surmising what my position is, although I didn't realize that only bonded totems afflicted, which makes them significantly less interesting or useful. My intention is to try and make our ability to

It might be true that nothing important or worth spying on can be spied on, and maybe that doesn't warrant my proposal. I don't really have an answer to those argument other than to refer to things which don't seem important but can potentially make a difference, as I have above. Even this is somewhat shaky. I don't have a conclusive answer to this claim

Eh. My point is spying isn't useful enough that I'd use a report on it, and I don't know that many others would either. To get payoff, you'd have to spend so long camouflaged hanging around random places that you'd probably be sacrificing more potential RP time then you'd be generating. I have a feeling that if stealth got this, you would be disappointed with the applications it would have (beyond sneaking past guards). And because all the mudsexing in Lusty is done in aethermanses, and presumably you wouldn't be able to use this in conjunction with the aethermanse system, you wouldn't even be able to provide amusing logs! Phoey? (not sure if the world needs another mudprawns anyways)

The way she laid it out made it sound like it would give the effects of deepcover (not being noticed by guards and defenses) for the entire duration. That would kind of make deepcover obsolete. If you had to mask and deepcover to get past guards while camouflaged, that's not really an issue.


EDIT: And, if your character (not a Seren) told me, "Hey, I heard you got in a fight with x,y,z... wanna join Glom?" or some variant, I'd just ignore you. With the IC reputation of Glomdoring, I wouldn't put any stock in anything you said anyways. I think that's kind of a common theme, none of our opposing factions operate based on the word of random people. Lots of inertia there.