I was recently speaking with an combat-experienced org hopper who has recently joined the Nekotai about the guild's combat techniques. After some while, this person brought it to my attention that Nekotai lacks diversity in kata combinations due to 1) limited availability of kata mods/actions, 2) heavy kata costs, 3) nearly every action-affliction carries a -mo penalty, not to mention the -2mo. Momentum building below 4mo is straightforward, and options only start to become available at 4mo and really open at 5mo.

To try and better understand this person's argument, I built the following table to compare the availability and ka cost available to each monk guild. From top to bottom, the categories are weapon spec attacks, weapon spec mods, specialized kicks, kick mods, grapples/locks (lumped together), grapple/lock enders, insta's. I acknowledge this chart does not portray the "big picture," as it excludes the number or severity of afflictions per action/mod, not to mention some actions are very target specific (i.e. just head) where others have multiple targets.

http://pastebin.com/PQLDipSM

The main thrust of this person's conversation was that ALTHOUGH we have a reliable greelock, oothai. vessels, other guilds have more options available at an earlier momentum. We want to envoy the issue to increase open availability of combat actions at lower levels of momentum by lowering ka costs WITHOUT buffing Nekotai. This might necessitate we nerf certain afflictions to lower ka cost, split actions into separate abilities where the afflictions are not equivalent, or introduce new skills. WITHOUT buffing Nekotai, does anyone have suggestions how to delicately envoy this issue?

EDIT: I created this list late last night and did not verify my work. Apologies for any mistakes.

EDIT: Moved it from CODE to Pastebin.

Whoa, your table broke. Though I would note that generally (no matter how much choice is involved) the most powerful combination will be teased out and used exclusively, this sounds like a noble endeavor.

Odd. The table displays perfectly fine using FireFox on my MacBook and Safari on my iPhone. Thank you for your words. I do want to point out that this is not about offering options outside "the most powerful combination." The problem is more specifically the lack of options available to 4mo and under.

Angknek is prevalent. Hold > Choke > Oothai also works 4mo and under. We can raise Kick > Spronghai > Spronghai + Kaiga. Real problem is that we jump from 150ka nekai+nekai, to 250ka angknek+angknek, to 700ka angkai+angkai, to 1000ka angkhai+angkhai. Blending doesn't work as well. An 125ka angknek + 350ka angkai would require at least 4mo. That is even before we begin to add kata or spec mods.

Nekotai spec punches. Please observe both ka and -mo.

http://pastebin.com/PQLDipSM

Nekotai spec kicks. Please observe both ka and -mo.

http://pastebin.com/F8XgutSv

Very restrictive between ka costs and momentum penalties. Given this list, does anyone see a kata action that might have too severe a momentum penalty or has too high a ka cost? Are there other ways that I can go about envoying the lack of kata diversity for forms 4mo and under?

Use Courier New font for you tables, Janalon, it should make them display okay for everybody. I barely understand monks and momentum so not going to comment on the actual topic.

If you've already updated them, now they look unaligned. They were near perfectly aligned before.
All I know about monks is that they either hurt, or they sting a bit, but I can still survive a while, so can't put forth any ideas.

Apparently different web browsers display the

 differently. Meh. Moved everything over to PasteBin. Hopefully this will give people an easier way to view my documents to a) compare nekoti action & mod cost against the other monk guilds, and  observe how momentum penalty impacts nearly every Nekotai action. Looking to increase kata options in 2mo, 3mo, and 4mo forms. Thoughts now?

Nekotai offense was made purely for its end state, with no consideration in between. The best early offense is to use the damage grapple repeatedly, perhaps with the poison inducing ender until you can greenlock. The only variety I tend to see is in the greenlock itself as most skills are not worth using due to momentum costs.

If I were doing it (and we all know how I love my considerable adjustments), I would do the following:

• Change Angknek to 100 ka to open up more option in the momentum 2/3 area. Other monks have more early options or can stack mods to increase effects.
• Change Angkai chest (severed phrenic) to open chest, allowing the stun. Remove the momentum loss, this would be a soft prone, aka it doesn't sprawl. I would like to reduce the ka cost here but that would require changes to the removed eye.
• Reduce Spronghai's (haemophilia + bleeding based on momentum) ka cost to allow for a specialize kick that is not 250 ka similar to other monks.
• Reduce Angkhai (slit throat/severed tendon) to about 300 ka, add an automatic 3p cost if you did not use boost, and remove relapsing from its effect. Perhaps move slit throat to its own skill so severed tendon is not made cheaper.
• Create a modifier to cause relapsing for around 100 ka on armed attacks.
• Adjust kaiga (burst veseels on kick mod) based on group preference, change its proc or make it an action of its own, either way.
• Reduce the cost of finalsting to around 800 ka but require mo6.

My goal with these was varied:

• Create more variation in greenlocks, they will all require at least 3 power but putting more power into it can greatly increase your success.
• Make the insta more possible by alllowing at least a softlock with it, a hardlock if you set up for it properly.
• Tone down the overpowered vessels option so we can see more meaningful combat.
• Encourage more options in early forms rather than constant grapples as it currently seems to aim for.

Exploring your options in the Ninjakari meant you could find the ability to greenlock as of momentum 0, yes, with no momentum at all. With 1 change to ninombhi (lacerations instead of numbs) we created a whole new option for offensive options through gradual bleed outs and mana draining herb affs. Ninjakari offered alot of variety comparatively and do not even get me started on Tahtetso and my envy for them.

IMHO, you seem dead on with your assessment. I am also wondering about the 350ka on angkai regarding pierced limbs. Does this aff seem in line with the ka cost and other affs given with this action (i.e. pecked eye, relapsing, severed phrenic)?

I don't think any monk guild should have a stun on demand with momentum loss. Ninjakari have many ways to stun: one is wound dependent, another is a grapple ender, and the other two/three have a momentum penalty. There is no reason, ever, for an on demand stun to not have a momentum penalty or some other drawback.


@Binjo: Wound-based vessels might not be such a bad idea, but I would like to point out that monks aren't incapable of building wounds. At least Ninjakari aren't when the proper setup and conditions are met.

It's too early in the morning for me to analyze Mal's suggestions one by one, just some minor comments until I have more time to do some mulling.

1) It is already possible to make a kata action lower momentum on some afflictions and not others, Binjo. As it is, Angkai only lowers momentum on eyeball/phrenic, the limb angkais (pierced limbs, lol) don't.

2) Tahtetso do have a non-moloss stun, but I'm unsure as to how exactly it works, I could be wrong about that. That is, however, the exception rather than the rule, and I do agree with Sahm about stuns and monks together. Allowing a monk the possibility of stunning every form indefinitely (on demand) is probably a mistake.

3) Angknek is probably fine. The afflictions are one of the best herbstacks in Nekotai, and their low cost makes them viable for use at high momentum alongside poison mods to attempt the herbstacking that Binjo considered. As Jan stated in the first post, the problem is with angkai and angkhai mostly. Going from 250 ka for 2 angkneks to 700 ka for 2 angkais is a big jump with nothing in between.

That said, I'm not sure how exactly to fix this beyond adding more low ka mods for use with angknek. The current status quo with nekotai strategy is to rush to 4mo, and stay there, and if mo drops below 4 for any reason (use of greenlock/mo-loss abilities, hindered) to rush back to 4mo by any means possible.

The problem with this problem (wordplay in the morning) is Nekotai end-goals. Our end-goals either don't require set-ups (vessels) or require set-ups that have to be debilitating in their own right (greenlock, finalstinghaha). To "set-up" for a greenlock, you need to overload the target with afflictions so that invoking green fails to cure the lock, ideally even being able to block multiple invokes. That kind of aff-stacking should not be easily possible at 2/3mo. That means to start setting up for a successful greenlock, you should expect to be at 4mo. Similarly with finalsting, you need the target to be greenlocked, since there's no way of soft-stacking antidote in any way.

Vessels is both the set-up and the end goal, because their mechanic is the Nekotai wound-builder, forcing opponents to forgo health applications in order to hold down vessel count (or the reverse). There's nothing to set up vessels with, since it has no wound requirement. Adding a wound requirement to vessels would then require some form of wound-building ability given to the Nekotai so that they can actually use it to set up vessels. Currently, Nekotai cannot prone on demand without momentum loss (and requires >4mo, which brings us back to the original problem), and have no other way of mechanically bypassing parry/stancing or otherwise aiding wound building other than vessels.

4) Having said all these, my preliminary suggestion is to focus your suggestions, Mal. Another problem with this problem, as Janalon raised, is that the envoy process is not friendly to multi-step solutions requiring part A, B, C, D, E and F to be changed in minor ways so as to create the desired effect, especially when the suggestions to all the parts can at any time be veto'd or arbitrarily changed into the infamous fourth solution. Look at one or two specific skills and try to envoy a change which creates a significant improvement on the problem.

I would say looking at angkai is a good starting point. We might even need to consider losing eyeball and other afflictions, and lowering its ka cost so that it gives decent afflictions at 3mo, is usable at 2mo with a kick at least, and can transition into 4mo nekotai forms with some kind of synergy or something.

Another possibility is to look at vessels, adding an optional set-up requirement that is present in our current repertoire which boosts vessel effect would make Nekotai re-consider changing their 2/3mo forms to use those set ups instead of just rushing to 4mo and above.

Or something else. My suggestions probably don't make much sense, but you could run with them and see what else you come up with, or something.

Nekree bonus adds to wounds, and can be double proc'ed with a double transfer of poisons (shrugging does not enter the formula). Let's assume we try to envoy angkai. Here's my notes on this kata action:

350 +/-0 Angkai 1-hand nekai, pierced limbs Limbs
350 +/-0 Angkai 1-hand nekai, adds relapsing Gut
350 -1mo Angkai 1-hand nekai, adds phrenic nerve Chest
350 -1mo Angkai 1-hand nekai, adds pecked eye Head
Requires 2 pecked eyes to blind

What would be the best option? Split angkai limbs/gut into a separate action that might cost 150-200 ka, or lower the action with all afflictions to 200-250 ka (keeping in mind the need to require 3mo or more for the double eye peck)? Hrm, that might be what I propose the next, next envoy cycle.

Change Angknek to 100 ka to open up more option in the momentum 2/3 area. Other monks have more early options or can stack mods to increase effects.

• @Janalon: Yay!
• @Binjo: Open gut can cause sprawl but as an herb cure it is not likely to last long enough to.

Change Angkai chest (severed phrenic) to open chest, allowing the stun. Remove the momentum loss, this would be a soft prone, aka it doesn't sprawl. I would like to reduce the ka cost here but that would require changes to the removed eye.

• @Janalon: I am one of the anti attrition combatants. I feel that if you have to use wp/end to kill someone then you probably just cannot kill them.
• @Binjo: Nekotai are the most limited proners. More thorough answer at bottom.
• @Sahmiam: See bottom as well.

Reduce Spronghai's (haemophilia + bleeding based on momentum) ka cost to allow for a specialize kick that is not 250 ka similar to other monks.

• @Janalon: Most monks have a 150 ka kick as a norm. 60% of bleeding for 60% of ka.
• @Binjo: I was thinking 150 so that it had more cost than a normal kick.

Reduce Angkhai (slit throat/severed tendon) to about 300 ka, add an automatic 3p cost if you did not use boost, and remove relapsing from its effect. Perhaps move slit throat to its own skill so severed tendon is not made cheaper.

• @Janalon: I will handle this one at the bottom too.
• @Binjo: See bottom.

Create a modifier to cause relapsing for around 100 ka on armed attacks.

• @Janalon: Make it cause the venom on THAT hit to be 100% as the liver is damaged.
• @Binjo: I can herblock if you dont use any secondary curing, all venoms hit, and you never hinder me. If every hit lands of course.

Adjust kaiga (burst veseels on kick mod) based on group preference, change its proc or make it an action of its own, either way.

• @Janalon: You can ask certain people about slotting with another change.
• @Binjo: Either reduce vessel max given, or change the chances of levels. -mo would be if it became its own action (which would expect reliable vessels).

Reduce the cost of finalsting to around 800 ka but require mo6.

• @Janalon: The specific cost is debatable, I did not reviews combos using it, but the idea was, mo6 but lower cost.
• @Binjo: It is pretty abyssmal.

Prones:

• Ninjakari can prone pretty much on demand, they get it easily even without a grapple ender (which also causes stun with it). Proning is where ninjakari shine.
• Shofangi you lose momentum to stun but you can use hook much more readily, we have no similar modifier.
• Tahtetso they lose momentum on the actual prone but have free stun and hinders, they are known to have long term proning abilities.
• Nekotai have 2 ways to prone, both of which are 500 ka+ and -2 mo, this is to add a more minor prone.

Stun was the softest prone I could think of, it self cures, can be very short, and doesnt develop something. Sleep, paralysis, sprawled, and such were all much nastier ideas to me. Although prone itself would be fine if desired I guess.


Slitthroat/Angkhai
Ok I took awhile to come up with something for slit throat, so I did think about this one for some time.

• While shofangi are 400 ka and -2 mo they pay nothing for the rest of the form other than ka. A current nekotai greenlock is -3 mo and 5p minimum.

I forgot the rest of my thoughts.. only one bullet point!




Solution: If you go with Lerads thoughts, remove pecked eye and reduce ka cost to say somewhere in the area of 150-250? I still would say swap out severed phrenic for something else too but that might just be me, as to the stun thing, I will point back to my above notes on it.

While I agree that Ninjakari can prone quite easily, I want to point out two facts: the best prone is voided currently by poor mechanics, and while Ninja have these wonderful prones, they are very leg focused.

I wouldn't view sprawl worse than stun. Quite the opposite, actually. While sprawl can surely lead to worse situations, it's cure is instant and has no balance to it where as a stun causes a delay.

I don't pay too much attention any more to combat/balance, but with that in mind:

- make vessels wound dependent
- add a sprawl that's low mo (this could be OP if Nekotai can take advantage of it rather early)
- the sprawl will increase the damage and wounds, compensating the nerf to vessels

This:



Been tried. Has failed. What makes a second go 'round any more likely?

Not putting "similar to " in the solution. Admin do not like clones, saying its a clone makes Estarra face palm. Make it a basic prone if that is preferred, and I thought prone was stronger because it opens broken leg greenlocks. Make it target the chest/gut instead to be different, it makes sense leg hits cause prone but all our prones currently target legs and we want something that can be used in more places since we do not have any other form of prone without severs.

EDIT: If nothing else can make it a head prone to replace pecked eyes if desired, not sure if people are open to removing pecked eyes though.
EDIT2: If the pecked eyes/severed phrenic were removed/replaced we could probably lower the ka cost as well, just thinking after the fact.

Another things to consider is that the prone should probably be somewhere that's usually parried or stanced unless there is a penalty of some sort, and gut/chest is making it too much of a good thing since no one would normally parry/stance it.

Keep it legs.

Most guilds can get at least 2 areas, ninja get legs for norm probe, chest and head for stuns, etc. Tahtetso get... all kinds. Shofangi get mainly legs and chest. Is Nekotai the only guild who doesnt even get broken chest (which stuns)? I dislike adding yet another prone method to legs when we already lack variety in basic prones (of any kind). I still think stun is milder but if you prefer prone we can look at that. Open chest instead of break chest would work as it now stuns as per the last envoy report to it. I dont know I will leave the specifics to you all.

I specified that legs get the penalty-less prones. I don't care if you do gut/chest, but then there better have a negative to it. Ninja can stun on any body part, but it's a grapple ender, so it's got the 2.8s delay or w/e if you're fully runed aslaran. It's also a two-handed action. The other forms that aren't leg have momentum penalties.

Definitely not into removing pecked eyes.