Unknown2011-10-25 01:19:25
Just a little idea I had in the hopes that raiding becomes viable again with the nerfing of distort, ect.
Introduce a short quest that summons additional mobs on to either Elemental/Commune Ethereal and/or Cosmic/Commune Bubble, the idea being you call forth the defenders of the org in some way.
Celeste: Warrior Angels
Magnagora: Warriors of Urlach
Hallifax: Golems? Energy Beings?
Gaudiguch: Raging Mobs of the Populace
Serenwilde: Ancestral Warriors
Glomdoring: Hadn't come up with one. Don't know much about Glom.
The quest would ideally take a single strong person 10-15 minutes to complete; long enough that it would be easier to actually defend a plane directly in the case of a small raid. The strength and numbers of the mobs should be sufficient to tip the scales in a stalemate, but weak enough that they cannot act as planar defense on their own.The mobs would stay on the plane until either a day has passed or if no enemies of been on the plane for the past 15 minutes, long enough to act as a momentum killer. The quest should have sufficient cooldown on it that the orgs aren't tempted to spam it against every raid, and only use it to help defeat large ones.
This will allow orgs expecting an attack to better prepare to defend themselves and allow defenders to win stalemates.
I though it would be an interesting little mechanic that would have some cool RP attached to it, and would appreciate thoughts.
Introduce a short quest that summons additional mobs on to either Elemental/Commune Ethereal and/or Cosmic/Commune Bubble, the idea being you call forth the defenders of the org in some way.
Celeste: Warrior Angels
Magnagora: Warriors of Urlach
Hallifax: Golems? Energy Beings?
Gaudiguch: Raging Mobs of the Populace
Serenwilde: Ancestral Warriors
Glomdoring: Hadn't come up with one. Don't know much about Glom.
The quest would ideally take a single strong person 10-15 minutes to complete; long enough that it would be easier to actually defend a plane directly in the case of a small raid. The strength and numbers of the mobs should be sufficient to tip the scales in a stalemate, but weak enough that they cannot act as planar defense on their own.The mobs would stay on the plane until either a day has passed or if no enemies of been on the plane for the past 15 minutes, long enough to act as a momentum killer. The quest should have sufficient cooldown on it that the orgs aren't tempted to spam it against every raid, and only use it to help defeat large ones.
This will allow orgs expecting an attack to better prepare to defend themselves and allow defenders to win stalemates.
I though it would be an interesting little mechanic that would have some cool RP attached to it, and would appreciate thoughts.
Lerad2011-10-25 07:26:42
There are some preliminary conceptual problems with this idea.
Firstly, I'm a little confused. You say that this idea was suggested "in the hopes that raiding becomes viable again with the nerfing of distort, ect." - but the suggestion itself is a defensive mechanic. Perhaps you need to clarify what exactly spurred on this idea? Is defending a plane from a raid already a difficult process now, that if raiding becomes more widespread in the future, the defensive side will need a buff? I cannot imagine adding a defensive mechanic to currently existing raid conflict systems will make raiding more viable, however.
Secondly, the execution of this idea is counter to its stated purpose. If it is designed as an additional defensive mechanic, then a 10-15 minute quest by a "strong" person is probably going to be too much trouble. A defensive mechanic that requires even MORE effort than the current status quo to activate is probably not going to make defending any easier.
Related to the above point, trying to integrate quest-based activated defenses into the current system will be a very challenging task, I feel. Currently, all raid mechanics are based on fire-and-forget supportive mechanics, while the actual action of the raid is contained within the PvP aspect. The side with more activated mechanics (distort, inspire, ripple etc) will gain an advantage. Shrines allow the raiders to have access to some of these mechanics as well. These mechanics have been designed to be balanced via power costs. A similarly activated mechanic that works on a quest, and which lasts a short time, is going to be... strange, if nothing else.
Again related to the above point, there is actually something similar to what has been suggested here in the ethereal Glomdoring/Serenwilde conflict. By "capturing" fae, each side can summon a guard-like creature that roams their plane. (Daughters for Glom, Ladies for Seren) These creatures do not have an expiry time, but last until they are killed. The amount of fae are limited, and you have to wait for respawns. This creates a secondary conflict beyond raiding - the fighting over the quest. Does your suggestion have a similar secondary "conflict" as well? Ie. will the raiders have the chance to affect the outcome of your quest, by attempting to interrupt it? The answer to this question opens up several concerns.
If no, then what's the difference between this idea and discretionaries? The summoned guards are not meant to be permanent, unless I read your post wrongly. They last a short time, and can provide benefit to the defending team, but not as a raid-breaker on its own. If it's effect is exactly the same as a discretionary, then why the quest set up? If you ask a defender, they will tell you it's not "fun" to have to run around and jump through some hoops and enter some commands for 10 minutes just to summon an effect that doesn't have a game-changing effect. When you're already under the pressure to drive raiders out of your plane, you are still required to bend over backwards to have a good chance at them? I think that might not be a very desirable effect.
If yes, then you risk bringing the raid conflict (and the PvP) into wherever that new quest is being done. The raiding group will set up beforehand to try and spoil the quest, because the timing of the raid is dictated by the ones on the offensive. The defensive side, which this idea is intended to help, ends up being denied the new effect with the same PvP mechanics brought to wherever the quest is being done - being raided outside of their planes, so-to-speak. And the raiding group has to put in more effort to set up.
So far, those are the problems I can think of. Maybe if we work these out, we can get a better idea of how to tweak the idea for it to be viable.
Firstly, I'm a little confused. You say that this idea was suggested "in the hopes that raiding becomes viable again with the nerfing of distort, ect." - but the suggestion itself is a defensive mechanic. Perhaps you need to clarify what exactly spurred on this idea? Is defending a plane from a raid already a difficult process now, that if raiding becomes more widespread in the future, the defensive side will need a buff? I cannot imagine adding a defensive mechanic to currently existing raid conflict systems will make raiding more viable, however.
Secondly, the execution of this idea is counter to its stated purpose. If it is designed as an additional defensive mechanic, then a 10-15 minute quest by a "strong" person is probably going to be too much trouble. A defensive mechanic that requires even MORE effort than the current status quo to activate is probably not going to make defending any easier.
Related to the above point, trying to integrate quest-based activated defenses into the current system will be a very challenging task, I feel. Currently, all raid mechanics are based on fire-and-forget supportive mechanics, while the actual action of the raid is contained within the PvP aspect. The side with more activated mechanics (distort, inspire, ripple etc) will gain an advantage. Shrines allow the raiders to have access to some of these mechanics as well. These mechanics have been designed to be balanced via power costs. A similarly activated mechanic that works on a quest, and which lasts a short time, is going to be... strange, if nothing else.
Again related to the above point, there is actually something similar to what has been suggested here in the ethereal Glomdoring/Serenwilde conflict. By "capturing" fae, each side can summon a guard-like creature that roams their plane. (Daughters for Glom, Ladies for Seren) These creatures do not have an expiry time, but last until they are killed. The amount of fae are limited, and you have to wait for respawns. This creates a secondary conflict beyond raiding - the fighting over the quest. Does your suggestion have a similar secondary "conflict" as well? Ie. will the raiders have the chance to affect the outcome of your quest, by attempting to interrupt it? The answer to this question opens up several concerns.
If no, then what's the difference between this idea and discretionaries? The summoned guards are not meant to be permanent, unless I read your post wrongly. They last a short time, and can provide benefit to the defending team, but not as a raid-breaker on its own. If it's effect is exactly the same as a discretionary, then why the quest set up? If you ask a defender, they will tell you it's not "fun" to have to run around and jump through some hoops and enter some commands for 10 minutes just to summon an effect that doesn't have a game-changing effect. When you're already under the pressure to drive raiders out of your plane, you are still required to bend over backwards to have a good chance at them? I think that might not be a very desirable effect.
If yes, then you risk bringing the raid conflict (and the PvP) into wherever that new quest is being done. The raiding group will set up beforehand to try and spoil the quest, because the timing of the raid is dictated by the ones on the offensive. The defensive side, which this idea is intended to help, ends up being denied the new effect with the same PvP mechanics brought to wherever the quest is being done - being raided outside of their planes, so-to-speak. And the raiding group has to put in more effort to set up.
So far, those are the problems I can think of. Maybe if we work these out, we can get a better idea of how to tweak the idea for it to be viable.
Everiine2011-10-25 11:55:56
Also note, that while Seren/Glom have a quest to get some defenders for their side, Cosmic mobs respawn automatically without quests, thereby already giving you the guardians you want a quest for. In essence, we already have in place what you are talking about.
Kiradawea2011-10-25 12:24:37
For Continuum and Vortex maybe. Not so for Celestia and Nil, whose denizens are for the most part weak and drain power when killed, with the extra encouragement that their opposition can turn those denizens into power for them.
Neos2011-10-25 16:21:28
Vortex and Continuum mobs are already strong, and don't cost power when killed, they don't need more strong mobs.
Kiradawea2011-10-25 16:43:22
That... is exactly what I said.
Neos2011-10-25 17:44:51
Kiradawea:
That... is exactly what I said.
Didn't mean to originally quote yours, I forgot to unquote it when I replied.
Unknown2011-10-25 20:02:14
Perhaps a quest to strengthen demons/angels then? The idea was to make planar mobs more helpful in defense. I have never been part of a Continuum or Vortex raid so I have no idea how strong they are, but angels/demons are pretty weak. That was what sparked the idea originally.
Lilia2011-10-26 00:13:45
foolofsound:
Perhaps a quest to strengthen demons/angels then? The idea was to make planar mobs more helpful in defense. I have never been part of a Continuum or Vortex raid so I have no idea how strong they are, but angels/demons are pretty weak. That was what sparked the idea originally.
You mean, influence them with empowering? Admittedly, that won't do much, but it's something, and you get power for it.
There's also the often overlooked nexus guardians, which sound almost exactly like what you're asking for. 200 power and they last for 100 game days. They have 7500 health, can shield, void, web, and attack. They're meant to help, but not completely turn the tables.
Finally, while I think it'd be cool to see quests connected to the outer planes, I don't think they should have an effect on raiding.
Ssaliss2011-10-26 02:05:59
The nexus guardians suck to use, though. You don't see where you're going (you have to constantly GUARDIAN LOOK), and they don't last for long either. It's a nice enough concept, but it's rather flawed in its current incarnation. I already made a topic to improve guardians, but it was largely overlooked.
Janalon2011-10-26 02:12:40
foolofsound:
Celeste: Warrior Angels
Magnagora: Warriors of Urlach
Hallifax: Golems? Energy Beings?
Gaudiguch: Raging Mobs of the Populace
Serenwilde: Ancestral Warriors
Glomdoring: Hadn't come up with one. Don't know much about Glom.
Somewhat related (but perhaps not quite in the same vein), I always wanted to see a commune/Nekotai quest to Wyrd scorpions. Something to the effect of kill scorpions in the blastedlands and astral (and, dare I say Scorpion Caverns). Give the corpses to the Ebonglom Wyrdling who then spits back out tenebrous scorpions.
Dunno what effect this would produce. Maybe nothing at all other than to see scorpions populating Glomdoring.
