Unknown2011-12-05 22:32:56
Hey guys,
It's been a while since I've updated on the progress on the special, things came up, people stopped commenting in the relevant topics, holiday videogame fest 2011, etc, so without further ado:
It's basically done except for the class specific topics, which may be too broad to fairly address within the constraints of a special report. Eitherway, I'm going to ask the admin to grant each class a special report dedicated solely to themselves to better address most, if not all, the issues related to them.
So, what I'm asking you guys is: What should we do about it? Shall we press on and try to make as many suggestions as we can for each class in the current special report? Try to go for a few general changes to each class for this report, then address specific guild skills if the report request is granted? Drop the three topics entirely from this report, preferring to just talk about them if a report dedicated solely to them is given?
Please let me know.
Personally, I am of the opinion that it would probably be best to suggest one or two general suggestions that help x class, then funnel the specific guild related suggestions to a different special report, but that's just me.
By the way, here is the draft, please discuss the report as a whole and/or thoughts about my question above here, but kindly leave the commenting/suggesting on specific parts of the report on its own on the idea forums. Try not to clutter up this thread with rants about races, demigod ideas, etc.
OMFG TL;DR: Are Druids, Monks, and Warriors too broad and complicated to fairly cover? Let me know
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Special Report:
Choke:
-Add a delay between casting choke and the effect taking place, 4s, where it will be obvious who the caster and victim are. It will cost 0p to start, but it will take 3p upon success. Separation between caster and victim here will break the effect as with the current choke. Have it check for shield when it is cast and when it takes effect, wherein it will block the effect if it is up.
Ex: The shadows begin whirling around Alacardael and Akui, 4s later, CHOKE MESSAGE HERE.
-Reduce choke balance to a flat, unmodifiable 3-3.5s (currently 4-5s).
Shrines:
Shrine Mechanics:
-Require a shrine room to be fully sanctified before it counts towards the number of rooms required for powers to take effect.
-Limit shrines to 1 offensive area power (wrath OR gravity OR distort OR invasion) at a time, and activating a different power cancels the previous one for ease of flexibility. In short, only one of the four area effects mentioned will be in effect at any one time.
-Disallow any shrine from raising the same effect until the current effect is defiled away. Example: Mag raises a Fain shrine and calls gravity. Glomdoring can't call their own gravity until they take out Mag's gravity effect.
-Add a cooldown period of approximately 15-30 minutes (maybe more) before you are allowed to call an effect of the same type once again.
Races:
Tae'dae:
+2 dex, total = 10
-2 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
Igasho:
+1 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
+1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resistance = lvl 1
Mugwump:
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 2
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
+1 con, total = 11
Merian:
+1 con, total = 11
-1 con merian lord spec, total = 15
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 1
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
Orclach:
+1 dex, total = 14
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resist = lvl 1
-1 cutting resistance, total cutting resist = lvl 1
Revolt/Aetherflares:
Revolts:
-Have all denizens in a village start off a revolt contemplating their loyalties, with a randomized "shuffle" time immediately after.
Flares:
-Increase the value of colossi to be roughly on par, or even slightly below an aethership bombard, with multiple focusers (10-12 focusers) increasing the colossi's value to be about par with 4 bombarding ships.
Demigods:
General Changes:
1. Add more powers - combat/utility/RP
2. Rework ephemeral system - allow demigods+ to permanently purchase powers that they don't have weight for, but make them inactive (aka ephemeral). Add in a command to make currently active powers to go ephemeral, no other restrictions here. All currently purchased powers will go into this list upon the change. All future powers purchased will go into this list.
3. Rework supernumerary system - allow the supernumerary command to activate individual demigod powers and put them into the 'active' list of demigod powers, taking up their alloted weight. Allow only one power to be activated (made supernumerary) per IC day
4. Add in "builds" of demigod powers, sets of powers that you can swap in and out as a whole instead of needing to swap individual powers in and out. You'll need to purchase this with either gold or essence. This will be subject to the one per IC day thing as well.
5. Review the costs/weight for the powers that currently exist, ascendant included.
6. Add back a lot of the old features demigods had, buyable as powers.
7. Allow sealholders access to domoth powers.
Specific Changes:
Combat:
Additional +1 stat (str/con/int/cha/dex). Singles only, like the +stats we have now. If you already own the first +stat, this second stats costs and weighs more.
+1 regen (health/mana/ego)
Additional DMP to damage types, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
Additional damage buffs, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
Divine beast: Beast power, will improve its stats (hp/mana/ego), perhaps grant access to a special ability,to be decided.
Additional damage attacks keyed to different stats - one damage attack based off Strength stat, one off Constitution, one off Charisma, oe off Dexterity, etc.
Increased endurance/willpower regen
-Blocking (functions like block firm or dependent on size, doesn't matter really. If functions off size, should cost less weight)
-Web-like effect (maybe ropes or something)
-Illusions (functions like the wand of illusions)
-Ability that lets you know when someone enters the room adjacent to yours.
Utility:
Additional influence ability (weaken/empower/paranoia/seduction)
Quasi-Anchor: imbue essence in any location to return to it. People can't follow through with you, essence cost and not instant. Super milestone.
Delivery: Make an item disappear from your inventory and reappear in someone elses (with accompanying messages, of course)
Dessicate: destroys items in your inventory, so long as they have months left, no arties. Stopped by flame sigils.
Ability to bestow a demifavour, buffing a player's stat by 1 for x minutes.
Demigod power that copies commandant arties.
Powers that mimic the commandant arties (related to squads)
Ability to burn essence into reserve power (not active power, there's refresh power for that)
Ability to extend the decay times on items for essence.
RP:
Choice Ambient: passive flavour message in the room like the other choice abilities.
Choice Race: much like the dingbat hats, convert your physical race (not stat, just an aesthetic change) to a player race. Perhaps include typically unplayable races as well.
Untouched by age: Lets the Demi set their own age, a'la Shadowdance Penumbra
More languages: allows the demigod to learn more languages, perhaps even a new demigod language.
Additional divine/guild/org look/entrance/exit messages - expanded choiceentermessage/choicelook
Choice transverse messages
Revisions:
Aegis: Reduce to 35 weight, 20,000,000
Gift: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000
Harvest: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000, make it reset on the 1st of the IC month
JudiciousPresence: Reduce to 5,000,000
EvenHandedBlessing: Reduce to 15 weight, 8,000,000
Destruction: Reduce to 10,000,000
HavocCry: Reduce to 10,000,000
Thunderclap: Reduce to 5,000,000
FearAura: Reduce to 20,000,000
DeathAura: Reduce to 25 weight, 15,000,000
Urlife: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
BreathOfLife: Reduce to 15,000,000
SanctityOfBody: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
PurityOfSoul: Reduce to 25 weight, 15,000,000
FortunateWindfalls: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000, make it reset on the 1st of the IC month
Dispersal: Reduce to 15,000,000
CompatriotOfChaos: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
QuietMind: Reduce to 10,000,000
PlenipotentiaryOfPeace: Reduce to 5 weight, 2,500,000
PeacefulCompanion: Reduce to 5,000,000
BeauteousWorkings: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000
OstensibleDreamer: Reduce to 15 weight, 5,000,000, remove the strengthened illusions aspect.
KnowledgeAwareness: Reduce to 22 weight, 9,000,000
IntrinsicUnderstanding: Reduce to 30 weight, 10,000,000
DistantPerceptions: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
It's been a while since I've updated on the progress on the special, things came up, people stopped commenting in the relevant topics, holiday videogame fest 2011, etc, so without further ado:
It's basically done except for the class specific topics, which may be too broad to fairly address within the constraints of a special report. Eitherway, I'm going to ask the admin to grant each class a special report dedicated solely to themselves to better address most, if not all, the issues related to them.
So, what I'm asking you guys is: What should we do about it? Shall we press on and try to make as many suggestions as we can for each class in the current special report? Try to go for a few general changes to each class for this report, then address specific guild skills if the report request is granted? Drop the three topics entirely from this report, preferring to just talk about them if a report dedicated solely to them is given?
Please let me know.
Personally, I am of the opinion that it would probably be best to suggest one or two general suggestions that help x class, then funnel the specific guild related suggestions to a different special report, but that's just me.
By the way, here is the draft, please discuss the report as a whole and/or thoughts about my question above here, but kindly leave the commenting/suggesting on specific parts of the report on its own on the idea forums. Try not to clutter up this thread with rants about races, demigod ideas, etc.
OMFG TL;DR: Are Druids, Monks, and Warriors too broad and complicated to fairly cover? Let me know
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Special Report:
Choke:
-Add a delay between casting choke and the effect taking place, 4s, where it will be obvious who the caster and victim are. It will cost 0p to start, but it will take 3p upon success. Separation between caster and victim here will break the effect as with the current choke. Have it check for shield when it is cast and when it takes effect, wherein it will block the effect if it is up.
Ex: The shadows begin whirling around Alacardael and Akui, 4s later, CHOKE MESSAGE HERE.
-Reduce choke balance to a flat, unmodifiable 3-3.5s (currently 4-5s).
Shrines:
Shrine Mechanics:
-Require a shrine room to be fully sanctified before it counts towards the number of rooms required for powers to take effect.
-Limit shrines to 1 offensive area power (wrath OR gravity OR distort OR invasion) at a time, and activating a different power cancels the previous one for ease of flexibility. In short, only one of the four area effects mentioned will be in effect at any one time.
-Disallow any shrine from raising the same effect until the current effect is defiled away. Example: Mag raises a Fain shrine and calls gravity. Glomdoring can't call their own gravity until they take out Mag's gravity effect.
-Add a cooldown period of approximately 15-30 minutes (maybe more) before you are allowed to call an effect of the same type once again.
Races:
Tae'dae:
+2 dex, total = 10
-2 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
Igasho:
+1 dex, total = 11
-1 balance penalty, total balance penalty = lvl 1
+1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resistance = lvl 1
Mugwump:
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 2
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
+1 con, total = 11
Merian:
+1 con, total = 11
-1 con merian lord spec, total = 15
-1 electric weakness, total elec weakness = lvl 1
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 1
Orclach:
+1 dex, total = 14
-1 fire weakness, total fire weakness = lvl 2
-1 magic resistance, total magic resist = lvl 1
-1 cutting resistance, total cutting resist = lvl 1
Revolt/Aetherflares:
Revolts:
-Have all denizens in a village start off a revolt contemplating their loyalties, with a randomized "shuffle" time immediately after.
Flares:
-Increase the value of colossi to be roughly on par, or even slightly below an aethership bombard, with multiple focusers (10-12 focusers) increasing the colossi's value to be about par with 4 bombarding ships.
Demigods:
General Changes:
1. Add more powers - combat/utility/RP
2. Rework ephemeral system - allow demigods+ to permanently purchase powers that they don't have weight for, but make them inactive (aka ephemeral). Add in a command to make currently active powers to go ephemeral, no other restrictions here. All currently purchased powers will go into this list upon the change. All future powers purchased will go into this list.
3. Rework supernumerary system - allow the supernumerary command to activate individual demigod powers and put them into the 'active' list of demigod powers, taking up their alloted weight. Allow only one power to be activated (made supernumerary) per IC day
4. Add in "builds" of demigod powers, sets of powers that you can swap in and out as a whole instead of needing to swap individual powers in and out. You'll need to purchase this with either gold or essence. This will be subject to the one per IC day thing as well.
5. Review the costs/weight for the powers that currently exist, ascendant included.
6. Add back a lot of the old features demigods had, buyable as powers.
7. Allow sealholders access to domoth powers.
Specific Changes:
Combat:
Additional +1 stat (str/con/int/cha/dex). Singles only, like the +stats we have now. If you already own the first +stat, this second stats costs and weighs more.
+1 regen (health/mana/ego)
Additional DMP to damage types, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
Additional damage buffs, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
Divine beast: Beast power, will improve its stats (hp/mana/ego), perhaps grant access to a special ability,to be decided.
Additional damage attacks keyed to different stats - one damage attack based off Strength stat, one off Constitution, one off Charisma, oe off Dexterity, etc.
Increased endurance/willpower regen
-Blocking (functions like block firm or dependent on size, doesn't matter really. If functions off size, should cost less weight)
-Web-like effect (maybe ropes or something)
-Illusions (functions like the wand of illusions)
-Ability that lets you know when someone enters the room adjacent to yours.
Utility:
Additional influence ability (weaken/empower/paranoia/seduction)
Quasi-Anchor: imbue essence in any location to return to it. People can't follow through with you, essence cost and not instant. Super milestone.
Delivery: Make an item disappear from your inventory and reappear in someone elses (with accompanying messages, of course)
Dessicate: destroys items in your inventory, so long as they have months left, no arties. Stopped by flame sigils.
Ability to bestow a demifavour, buffing a player's stat by 1 for x minutes.
Demigod power that copies commandant arties.
Powers that mimic the commandant arties (related to squads)
Ability to burn essence into reserve power (not active power, there's refresh power for that)
Ability to extend the decay times on items for essence.
RP:
Choice Ambient: passive flavour message in the room like the other choice abilities.
Choice Race: much like the dingbat hats, convert your physical race (not stat, just an aesthetic change) to a player race. Perhaps include typically unplayable races as well.
Untouched by age: Lets the Demi set their own age, a'la Shadowdance Penumbra
More languages: allows the demigod to learn more languages, perhaps even a new demigod language.
Additional divine/guild/org look/entrance/exit messages - expanded choiceentermessage/choicelook
Choice transverse messages
Revisions:
Aegis: Reduce to 35 weight, 20,000,000
Gift: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000
Harvest: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000, make it reset on the 1st of the IC month
JudiciousPresence: Reduce to 5,000,000
EvenHandedBlessing: Reduce to 15 weight, 8,000,000
Destruction: Reduce to 10,000,000
HavocCry: Reduce to 10,000,000
Thunderclap: Reduce to 5,000,000
FearAura: Reduce to 20,000,000
DeathAura: Reduce to 25 weight, 15,000,000
Urlife: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
BreathOfLife: Reduce to 15,000,000
SanctityOfBody: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
PurityOfSoul: Reduce to 25 weight, 15,000,000
FortunateWindfalls: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000, make it reset on the 1st of the IC month
Dispersal: Reduce to 15,000,000
CompatriotOfChaos: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
QuietMind: Reduce to 10,000,000
PlenipotentiaryOfPeace: Reduce to 5 weight, 2,500,000
PeacefulCompanion: Reduce to 5,000,000
BeauteousWorkings: Reduce to 5 weight, 5,000,000
OstensibleDreamer: Reduce to 15 weight, 5,000,000, remove the strengthened illusions aspect.
KnowledgeAwareness: Reduce to 22 weight, 9,000,000
IntrinsicUnderstanding: Reduce to 30 weight, 10,000,000
DistantPerceptions: Reduce to 10 weight, 5,000,000
Chade2011-12-05 22:53:35
Sounds good on the whole. I'd suggest that:
Additional damage attacks keyed to different stats - one damage attack based off Strength stat, one off Constitution, one off Charisma, oe off Dexterity, etc.
Be a bashing only attack for Demigods rather than a combat ability but otherwise am happy with all changes. Would be nice, following your comment above, to do a second report on druids/warriors/monks outside of this one.
Although I think warriors could go a long way towards being fixed with a targeted swing attack with a flat 1-1.5 second longer balance time than a jab and not touching anything else.
Additional damage attacks keyed to different stats - one damage attack based off Strength stat, one off Constitution, one off Charisma, oe off Dexterity, etc.
Be a bashing only attack for Demigods rather than a combat ability but otherwise am happy with all changes. Would be nice, following your comment above, to do a second report on druids/warriors/monks outside of this one.
Although I think warriors could go a long way towards being fixed with a targeted swing attack with a flat 1-1.5 second longer balance time than a jab and not touching anything else.
Xenthos2011-12-05 22:55:49
Making them bashing only would be a good idea; modifying Destruction to be the same (the magic-based attack, bashing only) would allow it to be reduced in cost and weight as well.
Enyalida2011-12-05 23:13:43
I do think that the classes need more work, though most of them have a solid set of beginning solutions or at least directions to go. I think that warriors and druids at least need admin feedback at this point to progress any further.
Unknown2011-12-06 02:03:47
Sojiro:
Demigods:
Specific Changes:
Combat:
Additional +1 stat (str/con/int/cha/dex)
Weighted or unweighted? I object to unweighted; I don't feel that the difference between a level 98 and level 100 character should be so significant (3 points in any relevant stat). I really don't want demi to be more necessary for combat than it already is.
My support is behind the rest.
Saran2011-12-06 03:56:32
Enyalida:
I do think that the classes need more work, though most of them have a solid set of beginning solutions or at least directions to go. I think that warriors and druids at least need admin feedback at this point to progress any further.
This.
A report seems ineffective for the purposes and reminds me of the dreamweaving "special report". I think we'd have a greater chance with something more along the lines of a discussion with the admin (maybe the guild leaders of the relevant guilds or something) where the issues being raised are brought up along with possible solutions.
Janalon2011-12-06 21:30:51
Saran:
A report seems ineffective for the purposes and reminds me of the dreamweaving "special report". I think we'd have a greater chance with something more along the lines of a discussion with the admin (maybe the guild leaders of the relevant guilds or something) where the issues being raised are brought up along with possible solutions.
Not sure I understand this comment. People felt that "persistent problems" were not being addressed through reports; that the entire Envoy system was broken. So... we move to an open forum report process guided by a Special Envoy. You don't like the results of said process, and want to move back to elected representatives hashing out possible solitions. Isn't that "Envoy"? Do you think we would gain any better results from a round table discussion rather than mass sourcing?
On a side note, Monks have never received public feedback from the Special Envoy. I'd love to know what topics should be shelved, what topics should be pursued through Envoy, and which issues would qualify for the Special Envoy's report. Shu, can you provide us with your insight?
In the absence of diverse comments and Special Envoy guidance, I'd suggest "momentum mechanics" be examined for special report. Syntax simplifying issues might be best "idea-ed" for someone like Iosia. All other guild specific skill concerns should be considered for a special report OR left to regular Envoy if there isn't the time, resources, or interest.
Estarra2011-12-06 22:13:46
Saran:
I think we'd have a greater chance with something more along the lines of a discussion with the admin (maybe the guild leaders of the relevant guilds or something) where the issues being raised are brought up along with possible solutions.
As I've stated several times on how this report will be handled, this is the first draft that will be submitted to the admin, then the admin will sit down with Sojiro and discuss what is/isn't possible or discuss alternate suggestions, etc., then he will go back and revise the report (presumably with more forum input based on the discussion). So, basically, there will be a discussion with the admin and you'll hear our input before the final report is finished. Of course, if there's nothing in the report except, "What does the admin think we should do with monks?", then we won't get very far. The report should provide us with something to think about so we can actually have a discussion!
Xenthos2011-12-06 22:35:18
I'd like to mention the Shadowlord versus Aslaran discussion again; Aslaran is just better in all respects that matter (same speed, more strength at a range that is really significant whereas the dex is less so, more con, more int)... and all that we had been discussing for equalizing things back was giving Shadowlord their strength point back that got Solution 4'd in the last racial rebalancing.
I note that it's left out here, but there was support for this, it's certainly not an overpowered racial buff, and helps balance two races that at this point have the exact same warrior focus. Aslaran would still have the superiority in stats (still having more strength, con, int, along with equal speed), and trading off other racial benefits / penalties for those extra stat points.
I note that it's left out here, but there was support for this, it's certainly not an overpowered racial buff, and helps balance two races that at this point have the exact same warrior focus. Aslaran would still have the superiority in stats (still having more strength, con, int, along with equal speed), and trading off other racial benefits / penalties for those extra stat points.
Unknown2011-12-07 00:46:42
Xenthos:
I'd like to mention the Shadowlord versus Aslaran discussion again; Aslaran is just better in all respects that matter (same speed, more strength at a range that is really significant whereas the dex is less so, more con, more int)... and all that we had been discussing for equalizing things back was giving Shadowlord their strength point back that got Solution 4'd in the last racial rebalancing.
I note that it's left out here, but there was support for this, it's certainly not an overpowered racial buff, and helps balance two races that at this point have the exact same warrior focus. Aslaran would still have the superiority in stats (still having more strength, con, int, along with equal speed), and trading off other racial benefits / penalties for those extra stat points.
We ultimately decided to only send the bottom 5 races. Note that Viscanti didn't make the list either, nor did taurians or a number of other races that go less played. Faelings are honestly pretty low on the list of required racial changes.
Unknown2011-12-07 02:54:18
That's about it really.
I'd much rather address the bottom 5 only rather than open up the can of worms on races which may or may not need tweaks. If faeling get adjusted, nothing stops viscanti, taurian, etc. to get their own set of suggestions, then we might a well look at every race that exists in the game. We can leave that for an actual race report.
RE: topic of thread - anyone have other thoughts on what to do about the classes?
I'd much rather address the bottom 5 only rather than open up the can of worms on races which may or may not need tweaks. If faeling get adjusted, nothing stops viscanti, taurian, etc. to get their own set of suggestions, then we might a well look at every race that exists in the game. We can leave that for an actual race report.
RE: topic of thread - anyone have other thoughts on what to do about the classes?
Unknown2011-12-07 03:07:57
The classes certainly are too complex to examine through the envoy system, and this is probably our best opportunity to address these issues. Archetype modifications are too important to simply leave out of the report, though they do require more deliberation.
I suggest that the report be sent and considered in two parts: the easier (non-class) changes, followed by the more complex class changes. This will allow the admins to consider, adjust, and make plans to implement the easier changes, and will allow them to give more attention to class changes when we do send those.
I feel that we can't make truly meaningful suggestions for class rebalanced without admin involvement in the thread; enough so that we know what the admins are willing to go for, and what the archaic code for some of these mechanics allows. I would ask Estarra and Iosai to read through the class threads and give us a concise indication of how far we are allowed to go.
I suggest that the report be sent and considered in two parts: the easier (non-class) changes, followed by the more complex class changes. This will allow the admins to consider, adjust, and make plans to implement the easier changes, and will allow them to give more attention to class changes when we do send those.
I feel that we can't make truly meaningful suggestions for class rebalanced without admin involvement in the thread; enough so that we know what the admins are willing to go for, and what the archaic code for some of these mechanics allows. I would ask Estarra and Iosai to read through the class threads and give us a concise indication of how far we are allowed to go.
Eventru2011-12-07 05:29:18
You won't get a concise indication. Your answer will be something along the lines of, "I don't know. The more drastic the change the less likely we'll go with it."
We're not getting involved in the process for the time being. Once the reports come to us, we'll give Shuyin our feedback, and then I believe it will be his turn to tweak the reports, re-submit, and we will then decide what we'll be doing, and what we won't be - then do just that.
We're not getting involved in the process for the time being. Once the reports come to us, we'll give Shuyin our feedback, and then I believe it will be his turn to tweak the reports, re-submit, and we will then decide what we'll be doing, and what we won't be - then do just that.
Vadi2011-12-07 06:58:12
I like the Demigods powers framework (inactive/active/swapping templates), but would like to see more powers available for that - because as it is, I'm using only half of my weights, simply because the powers available, for me, are pretty poor.
Saran2011-12-07 08:47:32
Janalon:
Not sure I understand this comment. People felt that "persistent problems" were not being addressed through reports; that the entire Envoy system was broken. So... we move to an open forum report process guided by a Special Envoy. You don't like the results of said process, and want to move back to elected representatives hashing out possible solitions. Isn't that "Envoy"? Do you think we would gain any better results from a round table discussion rather than mass sourcing?
The dreamweaving report I believe was similar but from memory it end up either doing nothing or leaving them in a worse position because they lacked the much needed updates it should have brought.
Estarra:
As I've stated several times on how this report will be handled, this is the first draft that will be submitted to the admin, then the admin will sit down with Sojiro and discuss what is/isn't possible or discuss alternate suggestions, etc., then he will go back and revise the report (presumably with more forum input based on the discussion). So, basically, there will be a discussion with the admin and you'll hear our input before the final report is finished. Of course, if there's nothing in the report except, "What does the admin think we should do with monks?", then we won't get very far. The report should provide us with something to think about so we can actually have a discussion!
I think that is actually the problem. Someone will go "Let's fix druids!", ideas will be generated, then a stumbling block will be hit, and then nothing happens because the onus is on the players to fix it, which sometimes feels like it is the players against the admins rather than with them when trying to get past this and make druids an attractive archetype which should be beneficial to the health of this game.
Malarious2011-12-07 09:39:29
It still feels like the ascendant powers are getting random cost reductions. If the goal is to free up space for utility/RP powers I think they should just have to give up powers since most ascendant powers cost alot you could get several new skills for that same cost. I rather not directly ask for extra powers for ascendants at no cost (aka you suddenly lose 25 weight because of changes and can go buy aegis yada yada).
Orclach I dislike their double penalty, they feel like the only race getting the same number of buffs as nerfs and yet the look worse than Igasho by far (for different reasons, hello low int/cha).
Monks: As per your details we will reduce to mechanical changes and as slim as possible. If it is decided that more can be alloted time we will update the list accordingly.
Druids: I have no real comment here, I have they have issues but its rather hard to "fix" them without making someone else insane.
Warriors: I think a couple of targetted changes would do fine. They work as is, minor adjustments like improving accuracy and removing natural miss on power attacks would do wonders. If possible the armor change seemed like a good change.
Otherwise I basically like all this.
As to whether we should get nitty gritty or go crazy in changes. I would rather we narrow the goals and weight the merit of each suggestion than pursue a whole series with various shoot downs. AKA dont suggest 4 changes to shrines, say hey the powers are crazy and thats the bottom line, make them a little weaker, and then make shrines slightly harder to activate powers on like requiring full sanc first, this way you still have a powerful effect (although weaker) but its still not as quick and easy to maintain and activate. Just my thoughts for that. :)
Orclach I dislike their double penalty, they feel like the only race getting the same number of buffs as nerfs and yet the look worse than Igasho by far (for different reasons, hello low int/cha).
Monks: As per your details we will reduce to mechanical changes and as slim as possible. If it is decided that more can be alloted time we will update the list accordingly.
Druids: I have no real comment here, I have they have issues but its rather hard to "fix" them without making someone else insane.
Warriors: I think a couple of targetted changes would do fine. They work as is, minor adjustments like improving accuracy and removing natural miss on power attacks would do wonders. If possible the armor change seemed like a good change.
Otherwise I basically like all this.
As to whether we should get nitty gritty or go crazy in changes. I would rather we narrow the goals and weight the merit of each suggestion than pursue a whole series with various shoot downs. AKA dont suggest 4 changes to shrines, say hey the powers are crazy and thats the bottom line, make them a little weaker, and then make shrines slightly harder to activate powers on like requiring full sanc first, this way you still have a powerful effect (although weaker) but its still not as quick and easy to maintain and activate. Just my thoughts for that. :)
Enyalida2011-12-07 10:46:26
Saran:
I think that is actually the problem. Someone will go "Let's fix druids!", ideas will be generated, then a stumbling block will be hit, and then nothing happens because the onus is on the players to fix it, which sometimes feels like it is the players against the admins rather than with them when trying to get past this and make druids an attractive archetype which should be beneficial to the health of this game.
This. I'm honestly not interested in putting much effort into a report that has no dialogue. If it's going to be us running around creating ideas and trying to craft working and balanced models of skillsets, with no input to stop us from going in a direction admins won't want, it's a shot in the dark. I don't want to invest too much (hope) on that bullet.
Unknown2011-12-07 15:37:56
The Orclach changes are not appealing to me. I actually prefer them the way they are now, to the results of that change.
The cutting and magic resists are cool aspects of the race. You can muscle through the level 3 fire weakness mostly, because their constitution is strong enough to work with it, and the +1 dex isn't going to suddenly "make the race", especially if they're giving up some of the better resistances.
I feel like with these changes, the race looses some of that Cowel-esque X factor that made it appealing to me when I was a knight.
Granted, I never felt like the race really needed changing to begin with. I lumped Orclach in with the races that have some detail or another that could stand looking in to, but certainly never felt unusable.
If I were to change anything, I'd just tweak them up a little bit to make them passable monks, which would be RP cool. I'd leave the level 3 fire penalty in there- Orclach are tough and have a nice base regen. It hurts, but the race can deal with it. I wouldn't reduce the cutting or magic resist, and I'd leave int/cha at some low level.
If I had (I admit, a little selfish) a pie-in-the-sky dream for Orclach, I'd give them a bard spec like dwarves, though maybe tied to a different skill. RP wise they could be an old Ur'guard tradition, based losely on Skalds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald which would make sense for a generally militant culture.
The cutting and magic resists are cool aspects of the race. You can muscle through the level 3 fire weakness mostly, because their constitution is strong enough to work with it, and the +1 dex isn't going to suddenly "make the race", especially if they're giving up some of the better resistances.
I feel like with these changes, the race looses some of that Cowel-esque X factor that made it appealing to me when I was a knight.
Granted, I never felt like the race really needed changing to begin with. I lumped Orclach in with the races that have some detail or another that could stand looking in to, but certainly never felt unusable.
If I were to change anything, I'd just tweak them up a little bit to make them passable monks, which would be RP cool. I'd leave the level 3 fire penalty in there- Orclach are tough and have a nice base regen. It hurts, but the race can deal with it. I wouldn't reduce the cutting or magic resist, and I'd leave int/cha at some low level.
If I had (I admit, a little selfish) a pie-in-the-sky dream for Orclach, I'd give them a bard spec like dwarves, though maybe tied to a different skill. RP wise they could be an old Ur'guard tradition, based losely on Skalds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald which would make sense for a generally militant culture.
Unknown2011-12-07 21:42:24
Eventru:
You won't get a concise indication. Your answer will be something along the lines of, "I don't know. The more drastic the change the less likely we'll go with it."
We're not getting involved in the process for the time being. Once the reports come to us, we'll give Shuyin our feedback, and then I believe it will be his turn to tweak the reports, re-submit, and we will then decide what we'll be doing, and what we won't be - then do just that.
This may devolve into a bit of a rant, but I feel that it really needs to be said...
Surely the admins of this game realize (though I am beginning to doubt that they do) that a player/admin dialogue is far healthier for the game than the admins, many of whom have not played recently, or in some cases, at all, making royal decrees on what is or is not balanced and what will make for a better game. Surely they realize that the players, particularly the ones heavily involved in combat are the ones who have both the best idea of and the greatest stake in the balance of the game. Surely they also realize that as much as this game is their brainchild formed of their ideas and themes, it is also a commercial game that does require them to effectively respond to their customers.
Instead of the more effective dialogue, this report is instead the "opportunity" to have more major changes than can normally be submitted "considered" (because god forbid that unsolicited suggestions be considered). We even have the unique "opportunity" to get admin feedback all of ONCE before we have to allow them to pass their supreme judgement on which of our suggestions (many of which we consider fairly vital).
While I understand that not every suggestion can have complex feedback, surely if the admins are willing to go out of their way for a special report, then they should also be willing to offer useful feedback during it's construction. I am beginning to fear that this entire report is going to be nothing more than a pressure release, allowing us to hash out and suggest things, full of hope that they will be implemented, only for most of the suggestions to be shot down, with the admins claiming, "Oh, look how how complex these problems are! Our entire playerbase couldn't come up with any good suggestions, so I guess there is nothing to be done.", and closing the book on the vital issues.
I do feel that more and more this game, or at least the balance thereof, is becoming players vs admins; I have a friend in the envoys and have ad the opportunity to hear some of the discussion and problems with the system. It seems to me that the largest stumbling block is not convincing the other envoys of the problems or even the validity of the solutions, but instead convincing the admin that there even IS a problem (evidently, the admins are willing to disbelieve 20+ players, many of whom are the most knowledgeable combatants in the game), and further avoiding impractical coding (though Iosai has been much better about this, kudos) and "vision" roadblocks (because evidently balance must fit the established RP; god forbid it be retconned to provide a better gaming experience). Ultimately, I feel that the major problems with the envoy system come from the administrative side, not the partisan bickering that is inevitable and ultimately futile.
So I ask again, at least tell us what is or is not practical on the more complex topics, or at least inform us when we make suggestions that have little to no chance of being implemented. It would also be helpful if we could have summaries of any "vision" limitations that we should be aware of (eg. Can we change the functionality of Sap in a significant way, or remove it altogether?).
Janalon2011-12-08 02:11:55
@Foolofsound, not sure your rant is warranted here. This whole "Special Envoy" idea was offered by the admin as a means to allow the forum complaints to be heard via mass sourcing. Deep conversation will be exchanged between this Envoy and the Administration... AND THEN go right back into the forums for an additional review period. Plenty of opportunity for dialogue here. I especially appreciate the filtration system to provide focus and meaning to the whole process. This seems quite generous to me.
The Admin are active through the Envoy channels. I've received feedback from Estarra, Eventru, and Iosia when requested. You might not realize this fact if you have never had an opportunity to Envoy. Outside the Administration, Envoys themselves have provided me with some very valuable insight. As long as I am willing to shelve my ego and listen, I can usually revise reports to most people's satisfaction. It all comes down to ideas that most directly solve the problem with the least amount of unintended side effects AND coding overhaul. That should give you a good start.
The Admin are active through the Envoy channels. I've received feedback from Estarra, Eventru, and Iosia when requested. You might not realize this fact if you have never had an opportunity to Envoy. Outside the Administration, Envoys themselves have provided me with some very valuable insight. As long as I am willing to shelve my ego and listen, I can usually revise reports to most people's satisfaction. It all comes down to ideas that most directly solve the problem with the least amount of unintended side effects AND coding overhaul. That should give you a good start.
