Unknown2012-02-12 18:42:04
Discuss possible choke replacements here.
I'll be editing the first post with the current idea we'll be playing around with.
I'll be editing the first post with the current idea we'll be playing around with.
Xenthos2012-02-12 20:16:05
Estarra:
Choke:
Estarra the Eternal says, "Ok well lets get rid of choke, that'd make our life easier. You can suggest some unique noncomplicated replacement or we will come up with one."
Estarra the Eternal says, "I'd also prefer it not be a clone of waning."
Estarra the Eternal says, "A new innovative, uncomplicated idea would be well received."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Or if you can come up with something that isn't aeon like."
Estarra the Eternal says, "I don't want you to get stuck, well it has to be aeon like."
Estarra the Eternal says, "You can think out of the box."
Vadi2012-02-12 20:29:47
This new effect then has to have the same advantage for SDs and EGs. Keeping in mind that skills were downgraded in Night because Choke was, this needs to a) give SDs the 'thing' to do in solo combat. Fighting in Choke was a skill that an SD learnt, that their opponents didn't bother to, that gave them an advantage. B) that 'thing' in solo combat must enable, just like Choke did, hindering the opponent in the room, c) and allow for more manadrain than trying to straight-out lash for a toadcurse, d) give the same hindering/lockdown ability in group combat, that was an important contribution factor for both SDs and EGs. I can't speak for EGs and Choke and solo combat, I've never played that combination, so someone else will.
And if this doesn't happen, I'll threaten that this was "just another example of Lusternias failure" *shakefist*
Btw, I'm expecting that people who were screaming for it's deletion will post ideas to replace it.
Btw, I'm expecting that people who were screaming for it's deletion will post ideas to replace it.
Mirami2012-02-12 20:49:59
In the other thread somewhere, a movement-hindering skill was raised?
One of the biggest advantages Wiccans have is aeon-- their entourage is built to pile on the pressure in aeon/sap/choke. While Estarra might not like the idea of copying Waning, I don't think we're going to find anything that's not terriOP unless we give SDs an aeon effect. So I'm going to proceed on the assumption that Night gets an aeon skill.
I could see adding some sort of second effect to 'make up' for the loss of Choke. Movement hindering seems useful (who doesn't need more movement-hindering these days?), but it seems hard to make it not super-OP while retaining usefulness. In no particular order, here's a list of possible things that come to mind (power costs to be adjusted, of course):
-3p? skill that lasts a minute, knocks offbal 1s every 6s.
-4p? skill that raises walls across all exits? Could be a shiny new wall with a shiny new effect (might need a different power cost, depending on the effect)
-3p? skill that glues both the caster and the target to the location for 10s? Maybe 1p with stolen shadow?
One of the biggest advantages Wiccans have is aeon-- their entourage is built to pile on the pressure in aeon/sap/choke. While Estarra might not like the idea of copying Waning, I don't think we're going to find anything that's not terriOP unless we give SDs an aeon effect. So I'm going to proceed on the assumption that Night gets an aeon skill.
I could see adding some sort of second effect to 'make up' for the loss of Choke. Movement hindering seems useful (who doesn't need more movement-hindering these days?), but it seems hard to make it not super-OP while retaining usefulness. In no particular order, here's a list of possible things that come to mind (power costs to be adjusted, of course):
-3p? skill that lasts a minute, knocks offbal 1s every 6s.
-4p? skill that raises walls across all exits? Could be a shiny new wall with a shiny new effect (might need a different power cost, depending on the effect)
-3p? skill that glues both the caster and the target to the location for 10s? Maybe 1p with stolen shadow?
Druken2012-02-12 20:51:07
This, hopefully, gives the Shadowdancers (and wiccans in general) the green light they needed to be repaired. Night has been neglected forever because it was "too powerful" with choke in place.
I've been sniffing around for different explanations from my envoy friends in a quest for answers to why wiccans only get one quasi-reliable instakill: toadcurse (astrology is not really on the table for discussion with its virtually impossible set up). Hexes doesn't get one where Runes does because of Nihilists (apparently that would create cyborg laserdeath), healing is meant to be a support tertiary, and Night/Moon are meant to be skills that require other players' assistance (covens) in order to be usable. Wiccans share hexes, healing, and astrology with other archetypes that all have their own methods of instant death in place and thus do not really need these tertiaries to function in this regard.
This brings me back to toadcurse. It...isn't an instant kill. It has potential and an alright success rate, but the actual curser rarely reaps the benefit from doing the set up (ie someone else gets the stomp), and in solo combat, chasing down the toad isn't always foolproof (if briars are up, forget it, and snoefaasia ice is an insidious plot, and so on).
So maybe, just maybe, Night can see some kind of improvement in that area? Crow druids get 5 possible instant kills (thornrend, swoop, runes, shamanism, dreamweaving). That's all I'm sayin'.
I've been sniffing around for different explanations from my envoy friends in a quest for answers to why wiccans only get one quasi-reliable instakill: toadcurse (astrology is not really on the table for discussion with its virtually impossible set up). Hexes doesn't get one where Runes does because of Nihilists (apparently that would create cyborg laserdeath), healing is meant to be a support tertiary, and Night/Moon are meant to be skills that require other players' assistance (covens) in order to be usable. Wiccans share hexes, healing, and astrology with other archetypes that all have their own methods of instant death in place and thus do not really need these tertiaries to function in this regard.
This brings me back to toadcurse. It...isn't an instant kill. It has potential and an alright success rate, but the actual curser rarely reaps the benefit from doing the set up (ie someone else gets the stomp), and in solo combat, chasing down the toad isn't always foolproof (if briars are up, forget it, and snoefaasia ice is an insidious plot, and so on).
So maybe, just maybe, Night can see some kind of improvement in that area? Crow druids get 5 possible instant kills (thornrend, swoop, runes, shamanism, dreamweaving). That's all I'm sayin'.
Unknown2012-02-12 20:51:40
Is it that it needs to be a action/movement hinder, or a cure prevention, or both?
I read an argument that SDs already had enough movement hindering and really just needed the help with keeping mana down for toadcurse. Is that true?
I hate to say it but despite Estarra allowing that it can be an aeon effect, we should probably try and make it something else. Lest the cry simply become this is Choke 2.0, or just choke renamed.
EDIT:
Druken mentioning that toadcurse is not a true instant, made me decide that something I thought too OP to suggest might be more reasonable. How about just a straight up reduction in mana gain through sipping and sparkleberry? You could still call it Choke! :P
Not sure if this would be anything worthwhile for Night warriors though.
I read an argument that SDs already had enough movement hindering and really just needed the help with keeping mana down for toadcurse. Is that true?
I hate to say it but despite Estarra allowing that it can be an aeon effect, we should probably try and make it something else. Lest the cry simply become this is Choke 2.0, or just choke renamed.
EDIT:
Druken mentioning that toadcurse is not a true instant, made me decide that something I thought too OP to suggest might be more reasonable. How about just a straight up reduction in mana gain through sipping and sparkleberry? You could still call it Choke! :P
Not sure if this would be anything worthwhile for Night warriors though.
Malarious2012-02-12 21:14:12
Shadowdancers are of the design as any other wiccan: Aeon reliance and sleeplocks. To make the design work without aeon you would need to take a page out of hexist Nihilists book, but they basically either rely on quickening with some fast combos or ectoplasm/sacrifice. So either you are asking about...
+ Choke being an insta with some odd conditions
+ A new aeon skill with different requirements (shadows, curable, but delayed to hit?)
or
+ Something the degrades curing enough to be on par with aeon, which the main thing aeon has is command stacking rejection. Alternatives to this are slow during curing balances or weaken sipping or something. This alternative poses problems of spam and basically being dilute for groups. When curing is devalued it bites.
Wiccan sleeplocks can be solid but the main thing that started hitting the mana guilds was new curing. Original curing was sipping and maybe sparkle. Nowadays you also have beast and scroll which has increased overall curing 50-60%.
+ Choke being an insta with some odd conditions
+ A new aeon skill with different requirements (shadows, curable, but delayed to hit?)
or
+ Something the degrades curing enough to be on par with aeon, which the main thing aeon has is command stacking rejection. Alternatives to this are slow during curing balances or weaken sipping or something. This alternative poses problems of spam and basically being dilute for groups. When curing is devalued it bites.
Wiccan sleeplocks can be solid but the main thing that started hitting the mana guilds was new curing. Original curing was sipping and maybe sparkle. Nowadays you also have beast and scroll which has increased overall curing 50-60%.
Vadi2012-02-12 21:22:23
Yes and the fact that sleeplocks have little relevance in group combat.
Xenthos2012-02-12 21:25:58
Movement hindering will have no beneficial use to a one-on-one fight for a Shadowdancer, only group fights.
Trying to lash someone down without having the ability to impact their cure rate would be an exercise in frustration (and futility).
Trying to lash someone down without having the ability to impact their cure rate would be an exercise in frustration (and futility).
Naia2012-02-12 23:40:30
None of the 3 druid instakills I have access to are even remotely viable except Thornrend and you need two or more druids to make it work.
Toadcurse, as non-insta as it is, is very easy to pull off..
When looking for a Choke replacement, compare SD to MD. Keep in mind EG also have access to Choke and its replacement.
Healing is op and takes skill and judgement to utilise properly but is super efficient when you do. It already impacts on cure rate. Hexes needs "something" but can also mess with cure rate. I don't know anything about Astrology. Night doesn't need an insta, it's a defensive skillset. Envoy it for the tertiaries but it's separate from a Choke replacement.
Whatever Choke is replaced with, it would be fun to keep the "affects both caster and target equally" mechanic because as Vadi said, the only advantage SD and EG have is a faster learning curve for how to fight in the effect.
What about a blackout tick every 5 seconds for x ticks? Hits the caster as well and cannot have more than one target at a time.
Toadcurse, as non-insta as it is, is very easy to pull off..
When looking for a Choke replacement, compare SD to MD. Keep in mind EG also have access to Choke and its replacement.
Healing is op and takes skill and judgement to utilise properly but is super efficient when you do. It already impacts on cure rate. Hexes needs "something" but can also mess with cure rate. I don't know anything about Astrology. Night doesn't need an insta, it's a defensive skillset. Envoy it for the tertiaries but it's separate from a Choke replacement.
Whatever Choke is replaced with, it would be fun to keep the "affects both caster and target equally" mechanic because as Vadi said, the only advantage SD and EG have is a faster learning curve for how to fight in the effect.
What about a blackout tick every 5 seconds for x ticks? Hits the caster as well and cannot have more than one target at a time.
Druken2012-02-13 00:09:07
I would prefer if we thought outside the hinder/aeon/blackout box for the choke replacement. There is really no reason why we can't take some of the ideas Alacardael and Ragniliff have been throwing around (and I'm sure will post here eventually) and roll in that direction for the replacement.
Didn't mean to strike a nerve about the druid instants, but honestly... even if they're hard to pull off, you have lots of options. We're pretty limited. Viynain made swoop look like child's play, too.
Didn't mean to strike a nerve about the druid instants, but honestly... even if they're hard to pull off, you have lots of options. We're pretty limited. Viynain made swoop look like child's play, too.
Unknown2012-02-13 01:10:54
Obviously, the objective isn't to clone, but because it is relevant to the discussion-
-How do Celestines, Moondancers drop mana for kills? How do MDs stick aeon?
Also, removing choke does not mean that SDs are suddenly entitled to lazer-eyeballs and light-sabre arms, or group death mega-massacre maker 2.0. It means they're entitled to a respectable, workable mechanic that facilitiates their ability to get kills.
And the EG effect should be a distant concern to what is best for SDs. Nightkiss aura, with DMP and weapon aura alone are quite enviable. Night also comes equipped with a few other tricks of various utility and power as it stands now.
-How do Celestines, Moondancers drop mana for kills? How do MDs stick aeon?
Also, removing choke does not mean that SDs are suddenly entitled to lazer-eyeballs and light-sabre arms, or group death mega-massacre maker 2.0. It means they're entitled to a respectable, workable mechanic that facilitiates their ability to get kills.
And the EG effect should be a distant concern to what is best for SDs. Nightkiss aura, with DMP and weapon aura alone are quite enviable. Night also comes equipped with a few other tricks of various utility and power as it stands now.
Vadi2012-02-13 01:12:18
MDs have succumb to help with manadrain, it's not so much aeon. Succumb was removed from SDs because of Choke.
Druken2012-02-13 01:13:51
Your adjectives are always super keen, Akui.
Enyalida2012-02-13 01:59:07
Druken:
Didn't mean to strike a nerve about the druid instants, but honestly... even if they're hard to pull off, you have lots of options. We're pretty limited. Viynain made swoop look like child's play, too.
Teehee, lots of options, wouldn't that be nice!
I don't think a blackout idea is good either, though. I'd like to hear what Alac/Ragniliff have cooked up. I STILL suggest making anything you create have a method to slide in groups. That is, some way it can be scaled down in groups without unduly impacting its single or small group combat. The inability (or unwillingness on the part of admins, dunno) to do that with choke is part of why it is/was axed.
Turnus2012-02-13 03:25:24
I wonder how much leeway is going to be allowed in this. Can other abilities in night be modified to along with new choke-replacement? Obviously not completely redoing night, but don't get too focused on "omg this one ability only worked with choke and won't work with anything else"
Unknown2012-02-13 03:27:46
Turnus:
I wonder how much leeway is going to be allowed in this. Can other abilities in night be modified to along with new choke-replacement? Obviously not completely redoing night, but don't get too focused on "omg this one ability only worked with choke and won't work with anything else"
What we're bouncing around right now would influence other skills, like lash and steal. Notably, I think steal would need to allow only one shadow of a given person to exist at a time so only one Night user can hold a person's shadow, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works now anyways, so that shouldn't be a big leap.
Naia2012-02-13 03:29:04
Yes, only one shadow exists at a time. But you can give the shadow to anyone, doesn't have to be a Night user.
Enyalida2012-02-13 03:44:46
As a corollary to choke, can we adjust brumetower? There was a somewhat (in a far off sense) reasonable argument that treelife pulling out of choke was a problem, hence brumetower. If that is no longer applicable, and you don't need the brume to protect your core skill against druids (brumetower is designed to fight Hartstone, no other original reason) can we slap something else down? Perhaps something to go with the new mechanic as a secondary support for it, leaving two potential slots to work on a different focus.
Unknown2012-02-13 03:44:52
My idea on the other thread was movement hindering, which is evidently not what the SD are looking for.
Another idea:
Witch's Blood
By infecting your foe's blood with Wyrden energy, you confound his ability to heal himself.
2 Power. Single Target. Focus Spirit cure. Whenever your foe sips a health potion, mana potion, or bromide, his other two vital vitals fall by 25% of the amount sipped for. (ex. Enyalida sips health for 3000, Enyalida loses 750 Mana and Ego)
Another idea:
Witch's Blood
By infecting your foe's blood with Wyrden energy, you confound his ability to heal himself.
2 Power. Single Target. Focus Spirit cure. Whenever your foe sips a health potion, mana potion, or bromide, his other two vital vitals fall by 25% of the amount sipped for. (ex. Enyalida sips health for 3000, Enyalida loses 750 Mana and Ego)
Shadowbind (alt name: Nighthunter):
Empower your foe's shadow into a wyrden beast that harries their steps and tears at their bodies.
2 power, requires and expends stolen shadow. Lasts 60s, Focus Spirit cure. Give all normal movement, tumbles, and tumble-like movements a 33% rejection rate, with balance loss on failure. Add 100-200ish bleeding on rejection. Shadow may not be re-stolen while in effect.
