This is a simple reminder to the envoys our there. Our job as envoys are not to promote our current alliance, or to buff our classes or our friends classes. Our job is to make the game a better more enjoyable place through balance and positive change. Lusternia needs good envoys right now as a lot of organizations are struggling just to fill up their administrative positions, we need to make this game a more fun place for all of our sakes so please remember that as you try to work together not based on class or city, but as advocates for the game itself.

Our job as envoys is also not to be about giving ourselves large advantages-- essentially, exactly what you are saying.

It is very easy to say such things, but it can often be very difficult to see when one is falling into the trap and perpetrating exactly what they are arguing against.

The sentiment helps, but unfortunately, there's still no guaranteed method to preventing the envoy war from happening.

I'm not going to talk about the discussion itself, but quitting is never the right answer to anything.

What Morbo is saying is we need...
to go along with Something Monkish.....

Something Druidish
Something Mageish
Something Bardish
Something Guardianish
Something Wiccanish
Something Warriorish

If done right people are less inclined to be blatantly stupid about their reports, and for us it has done wonderfully, with the exception of outside reports :)

Also helps find more general changes to help everyone. Keep in mind that FORMER members of the class can be kept as filters in Our case we call them Honorary Monks.

Our structure:

Envoy of the Brotherhood (These are the inductors/appointers/etc)

Ninjakari

Nekotai

Shofangi

Tahtetso

Honorary Monks (Former monks or those with valued opinions)


Most gods have been directly notified they can jump in anytime (as if they needed an invite).

The problem with the envoy system in general is that there is no guarantee of objectivity. That is pretty inherent to the thing, and there's no way to remove it without scrapping it.

The important thing is, to recognize one's own bias and take it in to account. Anyone who claims to be strictly objective and is actually playing the game, I will immediately assume is a liar, even if to themselves. It is part of the human condition to be shaped by our experiences, and to pretend otherwise is doomed to failure.

That said, this knife has cut in many directions. I've been accused of loving to bring this up, and, well, guilty. But the pyro/aero report was such a great example of everything that can go wrong with envoys. One side of the argument was, for whatever various reasons, absent. The skillset was damaged far, far in excess of what was required, at the same time Aeromancy was given an absolutely incredible facelift. The problem here was, to me, the presumption of objectivity of people who, in hindsight, probably weren't at all, the complete lack of adequate representation for a skillset under the microscope, and finally, that nobody said "woah, something is awry here" before it was too late to do anything about it.

It isn't wrong for an envoy to zealously defend their position. They damn well should, to be honest, so long as it is in a reasonable fashion. In fact, credit where credit is due the more recent reluctance of the admin to let any envoy report by where one envoy is nerfing another guild should be applauded.

By the same token, when one party asks for a very significant improvement to itself, that party should expect, and be prepared for, a healthy amount of resistance. That resistance is bias in some part, but it is also envoys doing their job and being skeptical of a change that, itself, probably contains some element of bias.

Rainydays:

In fact, credit where credit is due the more recent reluctance of the admin to let any envoy report by where one envoy is nerfing another guild should be applauded.

I kind of disagree with this. I feel like any trend either way is a bad idea. Envoys shouldn't only be "out to nerf" other guilds, but they do need to feel like they can approach a problem that's not being addressed, even if that problem is not specific to their own skills.

Malarious:


Something Druidish

Most gods have been directly notified they can jump in anytime (as if they needed an invite).

Keep an eye on this one. I haven't had the time/effort to spend on getting money for an extra clan and clanslot, but I just was given the inspiration for a genius idea to shuffle clans around to use a guild clan for it. I'll have to try and get it past the other guildleader, but I honestly don't anticipate problems in that department.

Malarious:

Most gods have been directly notified they can jump in anytime (as if they needed an invite).

We don't participate in those kinds of clans - we have an envoy system, and don't feel the need to engage in those kinds of groupings outside of it. It's a bit unfair to those envoys who are excluded for one reason or another, at the very least, as well as it gives a poor perception for the impetus for changes made.

Despite being in Something Monkish, those sorts of clans make me a little uneasy.

They are a double edged sword. On the one hand, they're very useful for bouncing around information, or getting input on ideas and issues from people who are more likely to understand the situation.

On the other hand, there's an increased risk of group think, and it is easier for one or two strong personalities to dominate an internal narrative, or push an agenda that really isn't in the best interests of the archetype, let alone the game at large.

I don't think that Something Monkish has really run afoul of this in a meaningful way. It is a bit unique in the fact that monks are a fairly arcane topic for most people. When some idea or set of ideas is pushed forward, the response of the other envoys/players at large is probably akin to Lanikai and quinotaurs-

"I don't trust these things."

Or rather, "My eyes have glazed over reading your gobleygook. However, I DO know that monks are really annoying as is, and this looks like a buff, if not to the archetype, then to a specific guild within it. That which I find annoying does not need to be made more annoying, so I'm going to go ahead and oppose this."

The other constant concern I would have with these sorts of clans in general- there can be a false presumption of authority. An archetype clan treated as a hobbyist gathering is one thing, an archetype clan putting itself forward as an authoritative resource I'm not overly comfortable with. Say we have a "farmer" archetype. They have a clan called "Agri-business" where farmers from every org can talk over issues specific to the archetype.

Agri-business is headed by a long time Carrot-ologist, the farmer guild in Veggieberry. Recently, there have been mururings in the game about farmers being too powerful, and a running forum meme saying "delete farmers". The Carrot-ologist, as well as other members of Agri-business know how they are seen, and know they're probably going to get nerfed. So, a discussion happens on Agri-business.

(Agri-business): Bugs, of the Carrot-tologists says, "Hmm, it looks like there are some issues that are going to come up soon, particularly, people feel that "Growing Season" is pretty unfair.

(Agri-business): Quaker, of the Grainlords says, "Yeah, after last years ascension, people were pretty annoyed with how quick we can establish a supply chain."

(Agri-business): Chiquita, of the Banannarchists says, "Eh, I dunno, its not like you can't counter Growing Season. I suppose we could add a power cost to it, or prevent it from adding to the crop rotation bonus."

(Agri-business): Quaker, of the Grainlords says, "Forget that. I need crop rotation to reach a yield that means anything."

(Agri-business): Bugs, of the Carrot-tologists says, "Well, I was looking at the Applpocalypse skillset the other day. They have some stuff in there that could probably stand to be downgraded."

(Agri-business): Chiquita, of the Banannarchists says, "Really? Is there an Applpocalypse user we can talk to?"

(Agri-business): Quaker, of the Grainlords says, "There hasn't been an active user in here since Delmonte went inactive."

(Agri-business): Bugs, of the Carrot-tologists says, "Well, we'll just take the edge off Applpocalypse. Keep them from spamming Applecore while their yield builds."

(Agri-business): Quaker, of the Grainlords says, "Hmm, that's fair. Alright, I could get behind that."

(Agri-business): Chiquita, of the Banannarchists says, "Eh, I guess that'll fly if you two think its alright."

(Agri-business): Bugs, of the Carrot-tologists says, "Alright, I'll use my slot on that this time, if you two want to back me up, that would be swell. We're such responsible types, nerfing our own archetype like that!

And so, Applpocaplyse eats a nerf, the rest of the farmers go about their merry way, having essentially chucked a skillset under the bus without any real impact on themselves.


...wait, where was I?

Eh, I agree with a lot of the potential problems with that sort of a clan. I also think that in general Druids are another one of those classes with balances/changes being proposed not that aren't necessarily transparent to everyone, and is a class that have struggles that aren't necessarily familiar to other players (Even some of the old druids in the crowd, things have changed!). Admittedly, druidry is a lot simpler then monkery, but it requires a similarly strategic tack at envoying to avoid breaking, one way or another, mostly because of sap.

I think it's worth a try, if only to have a place to post what envoy reports we each already have planned and ideas we've already gotten from our respective guilds, who would be part of the clan. If it doesn't work out for whatever reason, it doesn't work out and we'll use the clan for something else.

We're going to be making a stab at 'Something Druidish'. If nothing good comes of it, nothing good comes of it and the Hartstone will take their clan back. If you are a druid or were a druid and want to be made a member, poke me in game. Eventually there will be other people to poke about it.

I lul'd at Akui's post.

I think we have developed an "authoritarian" standing to an extent but people will still tell "Authororities" to gtfo. From what I think Wobou, Janalon, Sahmiam, and myself have the most steer. This has not stopped anyone from saying they are wrong or disagree, which is ideal. Having direction while still having people give their honest thoughts.