Unknown2012-02-12 18:43:48
Hi,
Suggest further revisions to the demigod section here. Also feel free to suggest more ideas for new powers.
Suggest further revisions to the demigod section here. Also feel free to suggest more ideas for new powers.
Druken2012-02-12 18:46:07
I loved the "masquerade" power that could make a demigod appear to be mortal again. It's totally for flavour's sake, and there's no real utility.
I also wish for new enter/exit/teleport/look messages that are based upon the nation and orders.
I also wish for new enter/exit/teleport/look messages that are based upon the nation and orders.
Xenthos2012-02-12 20:08:46
As per the other thread; cap essence at 200,000,000.
Do so after implementing the 'skillflex system' and give warning that it is about to go into effect so there is time to spend some of it.
Only 9 people in the entire game are going to be affected at this point and I'm sure we can all deal with it.
Doing so will allow us to look at costs & weights, and actually balance things on a larger scale than 'who can turn on a script and autobash up a pile of essence'.
Do so after implementing the 'skillflex system' and give warning that it is about to go into effect so there is time to spend some of it.
Only 9 people in the entire game are going to be affected at this point and I'm sure we can all deal with it.
Doing so will allow us to look at costs & weights, and actually balance things on a larger scale than 'who can turn on a script and autobash up a pile of essence'.
Xenthos2012-02-12 20:12:33
Estarra:
Demigods:
Estarra the Eternal says, "We had a lot of complaints that there was a perception you -had- to be a demigod to engage in combat, and we wanted to move away from a lot of combat advantages for demigods, but this report seems to really want to beef up demigods."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Also it seems like there's a move to lower essence costs or make more one-time essence costs or flex them or whatever but we see people with 400-600 milliion essence. I'd like to see essence spent more not less."
On skillflexing demi powers:
Estarra the Eternal says, "I'm on the fence iwth this. It would need to be limited so you can't easily cycle through powers and probably i'd want to make it expensive to switch, so maybe you can only switch out one a RL day at a 10M essence cost per switch, something like that."
On reviewing the costs of demi powers:
Estarra the Eternal says, "Review the costs/weight for the powers that currently exist, ascendant included."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Yes I agree the costs should go up."
D:
Estarra the Eternal says, "Explain to me the reason why any cost should be reduced hwen people are ssitting on half a billion essence."
You say, "Because it will only encourage more afk aetherbashing when what they want is suddenly 20 million more expensive."
Estarra the Eternal says, "What if we CAP essence at 100 million."
Estarra the Eternal says, "So if you reach 100M, you can't gain any more essence until you use it."
You say, "And adjusted costs with that in mind?"
Estarra the Eternal says, "Maybe."
On sealholders buying ascendant powers:
Estarra the Eternal says, "I don't like it costing half."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Don't think i mind the other part though."
On allowing the purchase of demigod weight via essence/gold:
Estarra the Eternal says, "Ok i'm thinking of adding weight based on the level of essence, though essence gained would be diminished the higher your essence level, and you'd deactivate powers if you take one and then suddenly you drop below the level."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Does that make sense."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Or maybe all your powers inactivate if you drop below an essence level until you reshuffle it."
You say, "Reshuffling would be great."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Well lets go on that premise."
You say, "Not as punishing if you suffer an unfortunate lag death."
On adding more powers:
Estarra the Eternal says, "I don't want to go through each individual suggestion except to say i'm not sure how balanced it is with these combat powers."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Adding stats, dmp and damage buffs, that sorts of thing just seems will turn into 'must haves"."
Estarra the Eternal says, "Regen stuff and beast buff isn't too bad."
Estarra the Eternal says, "I like utility stuff but not everything here."
Ssaliss2012-02-12 20:49:19
Just to post the suggested powers again:
Given Estarra's response, most things in Combat can be outright removed, but I don't necessarily see the Divine Beast and increase WP/End regen to be that combattive.
Combat:
Additional +1 stat (str/con/int/cha/dex)
+1 regen (health/mana/ego)
Additional DMP to damage types, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
Additional damage buffs, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
Divine beast: Beast power, will improve its stats (hp/mana/ego), perhaps grant access to a special ability,to be decided.
Additional damage attacks keyed to different stats - one damage attack based off Strength stat, one off Constitution, one off Charisma, oe off Dexterity, etc.
Increased endurance/willpower regen
Utility:
Additional influence ability (weaken/empower/paranoia/seduction)
Quasi-Anchor: imbue essence in any location to return to it. People can't follow through with you, essence cost and not instant. Super milestone.
Delivery: Make an item disappear from your inventory and reappear in someone elses (with accompanying messages, of course)
Dessicate: destroys items in your inventory, so long as they have months left, no arties. Stopped by flame sigils.
Ability to bestow a demifavour, buffing a player's stat by 1 for x minutes.
Demigod power that copies commandant arties.
Powers that mimic the commandant arties (related to squads)
Ability to burn essence into reserve power (not active power, there's refresh power for that)
Ability to extend the decay times on items for essence.
RP:
Choice Ambient: passive flavour message in the room like the other choice abilities.
Choice Race: much like the dingbat hats, convert your physical race (not stat, just an aesthetic change) to a player race. Perhaps include typically unplayable races as well.
Untouched by age: Lets the Demi set their own age, a'la Shadowdance Penumbra
More languages: allows the demigod to learn more languages, perhaps even a new demigod language.
Additional divine/guild/org look/entrance/exit messages - expanded choiceentermessage/choicelook
Choice transverse messages
Given Estarra's response, most things in Combat can be outright removed, but I don't necessarily see the Divine Beast and increase WP/End regen to be that combattive.
Mirami2012-02-12 21:01:56
So, the basic idea is, more powers that have no bearing on combat?
RP: Sparkles-- convert essence into a harmless display of light and colour. Cost some small amount of essence per use.
RP/Utility/Helping-Little-Folks-Out: DemiRite (Rite of Rebirth? Rite of Renewal?): takes, say, 40k essence, spreads it evenly between all non-demigods in the room.
I personally would love a bashing-only attack that could be tuned to different elemental types. Would eliminate many of the complaints about high-end bashing (such as, 'Icewynd is great for Gaudiguch, is terrible for Halli/SerenBards/Shadowdancers/anybody-who-does-cold-damage'). If such an attack were only usable on denizens, it wouldn't affect combat directly (Would help level the playing field, though, by equalizing bashing a bit). Could even make it, say, 10% or 15% weaker than 'normal' attacks (MinorSecond/Swing/Moonburst/etc).
RP: Sparkles-- convert essence into a harmless display of light and colour. Cost some small amount of essence per use.
RP/Utility/Helping-Little-Folks-Out: DemiRite (Rite of Rebirth? Rite of Renewal?): takes, say, 40k essence, spreads it evenly between all non-demigods in the room.
I personally would love a bashing-only attack that could be tuned to different elemental types. Would eliminate many of the complaints about high-end bashing (such as, 'Icewynd is great for Gaudiguch, is terrible for Halli/SerenBards/Shadowdancers/anybody-who-does-cold-damage'). If such an attack were only usable on denizens, it wouldn't affect combat directly (Would help level the playing field, though, by equalizing bashing a bit). Could even make it, say, 10% or 15% weaker than 'normal' attacks (MinorSecond/Swing/Moonburst/etc).
Unknown2012-02-12 21:08:14
I would change the combat section to the below and see how that goes. I admit that end/will increase might be considered a legit combat issue though.
Combat:
Additional +1 stat (str/con/int/cha/dex)
+1 regen (health/mana/ego)
Additional DMP to damage types, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
Additional damage buffs, will definitely have a significant weight/cost
-Divine beast: Beast power, will improve its stats (hp/mana/ego), perhaps grant access to a special ability,to be decided.
-Additional damage attacks keyed to different stats - one damage attack based off Strength stat, one off Constitution, one off Charisma, one off Dexterity, etc. Only works on Denizens.
-Increased endurance/willpower regen.
Lendren2012-02-12 22:08:11
I recently suggested an ability to resist (natural non-shamanic) weather seems in keeping with godliness, highly desireable, yet unlikely to have any significant combat impact.
Turnus2012-02-12 22:10:54
Maybe a beast ability that lets you passively drain mana or ego into your beast.
Estarra2012-02-12 22:11:52
I should clarify that we did not necessarily take all combat ideas off the table but those that are "must haves" (like increased stats, dmp, damage bonus, etc.) would not be considered but some things (small regen, a beast power, etc.) may be considered. In any event, feel free to submit as many ideas as you want, just be aware that probably few will be chosen. I doubt it would be productive to debate every idea and try to second guess everything so freel free to be creative!
Regarding demigod mechanics, the discussions weren't from a script but rather reflect the organic thought processes we were going through so some things may have been considered and discarded or not developed. I may not have articulated my final thoughts well but we were leaning towards not having essence caps but rather have diminishing returns on essence gathered the more essence you have. On top of that, we were considering having essence levels allow more weight, for example, if you have 200 million essence you get another +10 weight (number just thrown out) and every 50M essence over that is another 5 weight up to a max extra 50 weight. Again, this is just an example.
I know some people believe that once someone gets enough essence, buys the powers they want, then they have 'paid their dues' and shouldn't have to worry about essence again. And some people believe powers should be cheaper and easier to get. To that, I guess we just have fundamental philosophical difference as I believe powers should be hard to maintain, expensive and an ongoing process. While it may feel good to vent with sarcastic zingers or to wail on how wrongheaded that basic premise is or pound the table that we are only looking at outliers of those with high essence, it's not going to lead to a productive discussion or change my mind. Instead, I hope we can constructively and civilly work together to come up with a sound, dynamic system.
Regarding demigod mechanics, the discussions weren't from a script but rather reflect the organic thought processes we were going through so some things may have been considered and discarded or not developed. I may not have articulated my final thoughts well but we were leaning towards not having essence caps but rather have diminishing returns on essence gathered the more essence you have. On top of that, we were considering having essence levels allow more weight, for example, if you have 200 million essence you get another +10 weight (number just thrown out) and every 50M essence over that is another 5 weight up to a max extra 50 weight. Again, this is just an example.
I know some people believe that once someone gets enough essence, buys the powers they want, then they have 'paid their dues' and shouldn't have to worry about essence again. And some people believe powers should be cheaper and easier to get. To that, I guess we just have fundamental philosophical difference as I believe powers should be hard to maintain, expensive and an ongoing process. While it may feel good to vent with sarcastic zingers or to wail on how wrongheaded that basic premise is or pound the table that we are only looking at outliers of those with high essence, it's not going to lead to a productive discussion or change my mind. Instead, I hope we can constructively and civilly work together to come up with a sound, dynamic system.
Xenthos2012-02-12 22:18:53
I really prefer the concept of a cap versus diminishing returns in this case; having a cap means that amounts can be balanced base on 'reasonable' levels of essence, versus what is achieved by turning on a script to autobash for you and just watch the numbers pile up with no further work.
That kind of thing completely unbalances the whole concept, and having to balance everyone else around it is really un-fun for everyone else.
Having a hard cap nips that right in the bud, and more reasonable for everyone things can be considered and implemented in order to keep it a dynamic and continually functional system.
That kind of thing completely unbalances the whole concept, and having to balance everyone else around it is really un-fun for everyone else.
Having a hard cap nips that right in the bud, and more reasonable for everyone things can be considered and implemented in order to keep it a dynamic and continually functional system.
Unknown2012-02-12 22:49:45
I'll hopefully be a Demigod soon(Titan now). I simply ask that whatever system is implemented, it not punish me for missing the Aetherspace-autobashing-billion-essence-gravy-train. I know Estarra and the admin wouldn't try and do so intentionally, and I have the utmost trust in them, but I fear that trying to target those with absurd essence piles may inadvertently richochet to the rest of us.
I don't mind gaining essence taking hard work, and I think upkeep of it it should be a necessary task for all Demigods. I also think that powers should have a cost equal to their benefit, and if that benefit is great, the cost should be as well.
I don't mind gaining essence taking hard work, and I think upkeep of it it should be a necessary task for all Demigods. I also think that powers should have a cost equal to their benefit, and if that benefit is great, the cost should be as well.
Enyalida2012-02-12 23:07:45
I agree. I think it's fine to have a great many powers be expensive, but it's silly that some extremly useful and powerful abilities cost the same or less as far far less useful and powerful abilities. Really what I'd prefer to most essence drops is weight drops, as weights are more limiting in the long run, and buying temporary powers isn't anything I'd even consider ever doing, probably even if I had a huge essence pile (which honestly, I see no reason to do either).
Saqa2012-02-12 23:08:06
1. What consideration is given to the present upkeep costs for demigods? A demi who wants to fight will have to deal with enemy territory death penalties, which are hefty enough to require grinding for essence.
2. If more upkeep costs are added, there should probably be a way for demis to exchance essence for gold, either between themselves or by an external method (goldsink ahoy!).
EDIT: 2a. Alternatively, just make sure that the upkeep costs are payable in gold, without allowing a general essence market.
3. Not mentioned explicitly in the report (but falls under the aegis of weight review): RP and mechanically useful powers shouldn't be exclusionary. Having flavour toys costing essence is one thing, but costing demiweight is another thing, and results in a divorcing of combat and RP, which is a bad thing.
2. If more upkeep costs are added, there should probably be a way for demis to exchance essence for gold, either between themselves or by an external method (goldsink ahoy!).
EDIT: 2a. Alternatively, just make sure that the upkeep costs are payable in gold, without allowing a general essence market.
3. Not mentioned explicitly in the report (but falls under the aegis of weight review): RP and mechanically useful powers shouldn't be exclusionary. Having flavour toys costing essence is one thing, but costing demiweight is another thing, and results in a divorcing of combat and RP, which is a bad thing.
Enyalida2012-02-12 23:15:07
Saqa:
3. Not mentioned explicitly in the report (but falls under the aegis of weight review): RP and mechanically useful powers shouldn't be exclusionary. Having flavour toys costing essence is one thing, but costing demiweight is another thing, and results in a divorcing of combat and RP, which is a bad thing.
Yes, that's kind of what I meant. The things that are just minor flavor should approach being free. Many of the current Ascendant powers are guilty of being too much for what they do, as I'd say about 70% of them are for mere flavor (as they are substantially weaker then other options), but still cost outrageous weights.
Of the current flavor/minimal use powers currently available (Choice anything, Planar quickening, Seek, the old things demis got for free), most of the prices are about right (except planar quickening. Drop about 5 million essence off that one, it's definitely not 3X better then an Endowment.), but the weights could stand to be dropped to 1. I can see making things like Seek and zap 2-3, but the choice powers definitely should not be locking you out of any functional options, that's just silly! With the possibility of adding on let's say... 20 new powers, you'll still have to be grinding forever to get all the powers you'll want, including more worthwhile and hefty RP things! Why should these basics have any sort of onerous cost or limit associated? These are things everyone got for "free" (after bashing their way to demi), and that everyone was happy to get for "free"!
EDIT: For example, why is BeauteousThought (which does just about nothing important or exciting) the same weight as a third trade skill? Why is DistantPerceptions (LOS hearing? If you insist) even more weight then a third trade skill? I don't even thing tradeskills are particularly worth having period, and that seems really odd to me. Why do Death Aura and Purity of Soul cost the same amount, when only very small subsets of the population can make use of the second, and it's generally inferior to death aura? Why is Even-Handed blessing so much?!
Xenthos2012-02-12 23:20:32
Ideas, based on Estarra's feedback both in the report and here:
1) Cap essence at 200,000,000 total.
2) Starting at 100,000,000, add +5 weight points for each 25m essence up until 175m (100m, 125m, 150m, and 175m would each give +5 points for a total of +20 weighting).
- I picked 20 so that this, plus Manna, adds to a total of +50 weighting which seems reasonable to me. Numbers can be adjusted though. Reason for not going to 200m in the next point!
3) Every IC year, on the year change, have 5% of any essence pool at or above 100,000,000 essence decay by 5%. Someone at the cap will lose 10 million on the year change, someone at 100m will lose 5 million. That's an amount that is doable to recover if you want to keep the benefits (extra weighting). If you are below 100m you have no essence decay.
4) If you drop below a weighting level for whatever reason, your powers are forced to inactive, and you get to choose which ones to reactivate.
5) Fix costs, now that there is a new maximum cap and decay!
This is all in addition to the idea of Demigod skillflexing. Please note that if swapping skills is to cost a lot of essence, then the passive essence decay needs to be reduced...
(Also, all numbers are just floated ideas!)
1) Cap essence at 200,000,000 total.
2) Starting at 100,000,000, add +5 weight points for each 25m essence up until 175m (100m, 125m, 150m, and 175m would each give +5 points for a total of +20 weighting).
- I picked 20 so that this, plus Manna, adds to a total of +50 weighting which seems reasonable to me. Numbers can be adjusted though. Reason for not going to 200m in the next point!
3) Every IC year, on the year change, have 5% of any essence pool at or above 100,000,000 essence decay by 5%. Someone at the cap will lose 10 million on the year change, someone at 100m will lose 5 million. That's an amount that is doable to recover if you want to keep the benefits (extra weighting). If you are below 100m you have no essence decay.
4) If you drop below a weighting level for whatever reason, your powers are forced to inactive, and you get to choose which ones to reactivate.
5) Fix costs, now that there is a new maximum cap and decay!
This is all in addition to the idea of Demigod skillflexing. Please note that if swapping skills is to cost a lot of essence, then the passive essence decay needs to be reduced...
(Also, all numbers are just floated ideas!)
Enyalida2012-02-12 23:25:02
I really don't like the idea of having essence decay, but having only higher essence stockpiles decay mitigates that. I also think that it would help for base weight to raise, especially if we're getting a whole bucketload of cool new powers. Besides that, I'm fine with powers going inactive as long as you don't have to ever repay the essence costs on them. That would make temporary power buying SO MUCH more palatable. I'd end up overall burning more essence on buying up power in such a system, but I wouldn't be losing that essence, I'd be investing it, which isn't anywhere near as punitive.
Xenthos2012-02-12 23:27:34
Enyalida:
I really don't like the idea of having essence decay, but having only higher essence stockpiles decay mitigates that. I also think that it would help for base weight to raise, especially if we're getting a whole bucketload of cool new powers. Besides that, I'm fine with powers going inactive as long as you don't have to ever repay the essence costs on them. That would make temporary power buying SO MUCH more palatable. I'd end up overall burning more essence on buying up power in such a system, but I wouldn't be losing that essence, I'd be investing it, which isn't anywhere near as punitive.
Exactly. That's the gist of it all around; there is decay, but only if you have a ton of the stuff (and you choose whether or not to get into that range). The benefits for getting there are relatively minor, so there's no 'forcing' to do so. Then getting rid of the whole temporary aspect in favour of investing in skills to use when you want them is an extremely important aspect of the overhaul.
Ixion2012-02-12 23:38:23
Having an essence cap makes little sense to me. All it does it punish the top couple people for getting so much. Increase costs all over the place, the powers cost to little to begin with save for perhaps veneration which is 120M to trans.
Skillflexing with essence isn't needed either, 25/50 lessons is trivial at best.
What's wrong with just adding a set weight expansion you can buy with essence? Most of that discussion seems,from my perspective, more complicated than it needs to be.
Skillflexing with essence isn't needed either, 25/50 lessons is trivial at best.
What's wrong with just adding a set weight expansion you can buy with essence? Most of that discussion seems,from my perspective, more complicated than it needs to be.
Xenthos2012-02-12 23:39:47
An essence cap is important because otherwise the system is going to be balanced around the 'top people'. Raising essence costs for things punishes everyone else who does not autobash their life away.
It is absolutely needed.
Edit: PS, it's not 'skillflexing with essence'. It is 'a new system to swap out Demigod power abilities that is being compared to skillflex,' so it wouldn't use lessons anyways... I'm not convinced it needs an essence cost, especially if there is a decay, but definitely wouldn't be done with lessons.
It is absolutely needed.
Edit: PS, it's not 'skillflexing with essence'. It is 'a new system to swap out Demigod power abilities that is being compared to skillflex,' so it wouldn't use lessons anyways... I'm not convinced it needs an essence cost, especially if there is a decay, but definitely wouldn't be done with lessons.
