So, I was talking with some folks today about knights. Part of the problem for some races that are "knighty" is that they possess rather low dexterity scores.

The problem isn't purely defense related. I'm told, and this meshes with my anecdotal experience over the years bouncing between races, that it is impacting the chance to land wounds you want as a knight.

This (in part, balance bonuses are obviously a factor) results in otherwise "passable" knight races being left by the wayside.

Dex scores are as follows:
Faeling-18
Furrikin-17
Illithoid-17
Aslaran-16
Kephera(male)-16
Krokani-15
Loboshigaru-15
Elfen-14 (+2 for elfen lady/lord)
Mugwump-14
Trill-14
Human-14 (full spec)
Orclach-13
Taurian-12
Merian- 11(14 for lady/lord)
Dwarf-11
Dracnari-10 (+2 for guardian)
Lucidian-10 (+2 for adamantine)
Viscanti-10 (+2 for brood)
Igasho-10
Kephera(female)-9
Tae'dae-8


Now, obviously, factors like balance bonuses are very important here, as well as a certain level of strength and constitution/sip bonus, vulnerabilities, and other factors.

Of the weapon specialization races, Dwarf, Igasho, and Orclach have dex that is lower than desireable (though, Orclach is on the report). Outside of that, Tae'dae sit fat and happy at the bottom of the list, and Taurian are nothing to write home about. However, rather than saying "this race needs dex" or "that race needs some more", I'd rather ask:

Is it/what is the chance of/etc. for the impact of dexterity purely on the offensive part of knight combat to be removed? Set it at the equivalent offensive power of 16ish (randomly), and leave it, and leave the defensive benefits/penalties of dexterity intact?

Obviously, this isn't going to fix all the races, but in a game where knights have such a racial balancing act, it would allieviate some of the pressure, and remove one of the hurdles races like Tae, dwarf, taurian and the like face.

Rainydays:

Found the following post regarding dex in an old racial testing thread:

Estarra:

We aren't looking at new attacks at this time--certainly not new attacks for races! If there's an issue with attacks, it can be brought up in envoys or in a separate topic.

We are not considering monk specialized races at this time. We are considering bard specialized races so input is welcome there.

Regarding the issue on dexterity for warriors, as I had presumed, 2 points of dexterity really does next to nothing for chance to wound so the arguments there don't hold water. I've asked Roark to look into the issue and this is his finding:


QUOTE(Roark)
It looks like 3 points of dexterity adds 1% to your chance-to-wound roll.


That's pretty minor IMO. Here's the catch, though. Wound level plays more of a factor in wounding than DEX, and wound level is based on STR. Therefore, more STR will indirectly also cause you to be more likely to trigger a wound affliction due to getting higher wound levels. Let's say you have two races: one with 16 STR and 8 DEX, and the other has those numbers reversed. The 16 STR race does 43% more wound damage than the other. This increases your wound-affliction random roll by 43%. The lower DEX, though, would result in a 2% penalty. I think the STR more than outweighs it.

Yes, maneuvers do help with wounding. By selecting fewer wounds in your maneuver, you increase the odds of doing one of those wounds. That's one of its perks.

Is that still accurate nowadays?
As an alternative to poking dex, perhaps unflatten the top end of strength so that the races with low dex that are 'balanced' around having high str scores actually get a decent benefit from them would help make it work?

Raeri:


Found the following post regarding dex in an old racial testing thread:



Is that still accurate nowadays?
As an alternative to poking dex, perhaps unflatten the top end of strength so that the races with low dex that are 'balanced' around having high str scores actually get a decent benefit from them would help make it work?

Honestly, I don't know. I've been told enough times that dex has a real impact on getting the wounds, that I worry that I'm preceiving things through that lens.

However, if that is the case, I'm not alone. I've had, over the years, many people say the same thing.

I don't know much about the dexterity issues for warriors. But I do know enough about combat to say I would never even consider playing a Tae'dae or Igasho warrior, the balance penalties are just overwhelming.

When it comes to Taurian and Orclach, it seems that they are middle children. Why play with them when the other children are better? Hopefully dingbat hats will bring in some more racial RP for both these groups. But that doesn't fix the fact that there are races which almost no one plays, and the combat problems of those races is almost certainly why.

Maybe if the balance penalties for Igasho where switched to bal -1, eq -2 and the Tae'dae where lowered to -2. I would guess that has been suggested before though, or something like it.

EDIT: I'm baking cookies and can't be bothered to check if any of this is in the Shuyin Report!

Some of it is!

And honestly, there's a balance to be struck, and some races are always going to be better at some things than others. Just like I wasn't enthused to see people suggesting reducing the Orclach weakness in exchange for reducing the orclach resists- it made the race look watered down.

By the same token, for Igasho, I can see why people avoid it, yet, there's an appeal there to me. The balance bonus/malus is a "toughie".

Firstly, you can't look at just dex. You need to look at the str+dex amount because with shrink/expand that's what matters given the flexibility there.

1% may be true.. but in practice I'd claim the bigger issue is that a target with higher dex is going to 'dodge' a good deal of wounding afflictions. A good time ago I tested some things with Narsrim with 25 dex. Back then he quite accurately touted how he was immune to warriors, and really, he was. The difference was staggering in how rarely I'd get a wounding affliction against higher dex, up to the obviously worst case scenario at 25 target dex.

Divorcing wounds and wounding afflictions from dex entirely is a good change. That should make the slower/lower dex races in line with the rest. Also, damn elfen lords and their uber 31 str+dex total.

I agree. Let's fix that. Just about every class that isn't warrior/monk will max out dexterity with shrink.

Further, it may help to reduce the impact of DexDodging, in order to accommodate lower Dex races.

Sure, we can pitch an idea to remove dexterity's effect on wounds and wound afflictions. Is that the gist of this thread?

Yes.

Okay. I've noted it down.

Just to be clear:

You want to remove the effect of dex when you roll for wounds on a victim, so say, standardize it at 16 (?). You guys will need to decide on a number.

And you also want to remove the effect of dex when you roll for wound afflictions as the victim?

Is that correct?

Yeah, the effect on aff rolls. It should either have much steeper diminishing returns so that crazy 25 dex isn't so crazy, or cap it at 17-18.

Roark would probably be the best source on what numbers to use and how to achieve it while taking any hidden components into consideration. 16 sounds reasonable I suppose, and Rivius's idea might be easier, but I think it's better to divorce it entirely in the interest of the larger/slower/low dex races.

So in essence, dex will now only affect stancing (maybe parrying)?

Doesn't Dex also contribute to the warrior/monk's miss rate?

Can't dex affect precision or something instead of becoming mostly useless? (speaking as a faeling)

foolofsound:

Doesn't Dex also contribute to the warrior/monk's miss rate?

Not the miss rate, no.

Basically, here's the big question then:

What will be the point of dex?

Stance/Parry. Acrobatics Dodging proc rate.

Dex doesnt effect acrobatics.

Parry I am less sure, I know stance checks dex.