As I and many others are well aware, there is significatn disatisfaction with the current conflict mechanics in Lusternia. After hearing from Nocht and some of the other admins on the (now closed) "Population Issues" thread, I felt that with the end of ascention season now would be a good time to begin discussing changes to the conflict mechanics.

The problems as I see them:

Raids:
1. Micro-raids (<5 people) and even a single guerilla fighter can wage a campaign of harassment against a nation. These campaigns have little practical purpose (outside of totem chopping/aspects/elemental lords) and serve primarily to annoy. Further, it takes significantly more effort to drive out these micro raids than it does to start them.
2. Raid that are too small to make an attempt at Demon Lords, Supernals, Aspects, ect. have no real attainable objective other than "kill defenders". These raids can often go on for extended amounts of time, especially if the aggressor force is stronger than what defenses can be mustered.
3. In some cases, defending a plane during a larger raid is made more difficult due to planar feature or layout.
4. Raids have minimal impact even when the massive effort required for a full raid is put forth.

Conflict Quests:
1. Conflict quests either have minimal impact, or impact that is likely to be harmful to the completing org or their allies (gorgogs, tainted broadcasting center, soulforge)
2. Many conflict quests are rather easy to keep permanently disrupted without significant risk to the disruptor.

Some ideas for raids:
1. Allows planes to essentially defend themselves against micro-raids (<5 people) by either allowing existing mobs to track to enemies of the plane, or adding mobs that do so.
2. Add clear objectives for raids too small to attempt demon lords, ect. to attempt. This gives both sides a goal, rather than "fight till they don't want to fight". The effects of failing to protect this objective should be noticable, but overall minor.
3. Increase the effects of failing to defend Demon Lords, ect.
4. Increase the strength of Elemental Lord/Aspects so that they can no longer be defeated by micro raids, and instead require about 5 people.
5. Add negative effects/invasion mobs that begin affecting raiders if raids continue longer than a certain amount of time (1-2 hours) in order to prevent long-term harassment.

I haven't given conflict quests as much thought. Any ideas for conflict mechanics in general?

Raiders accrue insanity the longer they stay on an enemy plane.

AquaNeos:

Raiders accrue insanity the longer they stay on an enemy plane.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that require that you have a particular construct built (one for each plane) in order to get that effect?

foolofsound:

As I and many others are well aware, there is significatn disatisfaction with the current conflict mechanics in Lusternia. After hearing from Nocht and some of the other admins on the (now closed) "Population Issues" thread, I felt that with the end of ascention season now would be a good time to begin discussing changes to the conflict mechanics.

The problems as I see them:

Raids:
1. Micro-raids (<5 people) and even a single guerilla fighter can wage a campaign of harassment against a nation. These campaigns have little practical purpose (outside of totem chopping/aspects/elemental lords) and serve primarily to annoy. Further, it takes significantly more effort to drive out these micro raids than it does to start them.
2. Raid that are too small to make an attempt at Demon Lords, Supernals, Aspects, ect. have no real attainable objective other than "kill defenders". These raids can often go on for extended amounts of time, especially if the aggressor force is stronger than what defenses can be mustered.
3. In some cases, defending a plane during a larger raid is made more difficult due to planar feature or layout.
4. Raids have minimal impact even when the massive effort required for a full raid is put forth.

Conflict Quests:
1. Conflict quests either have minimal impact, or impact that is likely to be harmful to the completing org or their allies (gorgogs, tainted broadcasting center, soulforge)
2. Many conflict quests are rather easy to keep permanently disrupted without significant risk to the disruptor.

Some ideas for raids:
1. Allows planes to essentially defend themselves against micro-raids (<5 people) by either allowing existing mobs to track to enemies of the plane, or adding mobs that do so.
2. Add clear objectives for raids too small to attempt demon lords, ect. to attempt. This gives both sides a goal, rather than "fight till they don't want to fight". The effects of failing to protect this objective should be noticable, but overall minor.
3. Increase the effects of failing to defend Demon Lords, ect.
4. Increase the strength of Elemental Lord/Aspects so that they can no longer be defeated by micro raids, and instead require about 5 people.
5. Add negative effects/invasion mobs that begin affecting raiders if raids continue longer than a certain amount of time (1-2 hours) in order to prevent long-term harassment.

I haven't given conflict quests as much thought. Any ideas for conflict mechanics in general?

I don't agree about 'micro-raids.' I'm not a fan of people hitting and running but I think if a few people want to pick a fight, then that's perfectly legitimate. Allowing planes to defend themselves (some might argue that they already do), just detracts from combat even more so, because it's not often you get a lot of people that want to raid. Typically even with just 2-3 people, shrine powers, discretionaries and such get called up anyway, which will chase them away pretty quick. If there is one way to get better at combat, it's to pick fights. Who cares if you die, give it a shot. Sometimes it's even better to manage an awesome escape than killing anyone. Staying alive is key to group fights, what better way to practice?

As for suggestions, most of them are implemented in some way or another. Ladies, Daughters already track, you can set up discretionary and shrine powers. Elemental Lords/Aspects could be a bit stronger I think, and I don't think you need the construct to accrue insanity, but I could be wrong there.

Don't hate on the small 1-2 person raids.

He means, if you smack one Lady, all of them in a radius start tracking to you. I think he's really pointing at angels/demons though, which are pretty weak, don't seem to clump at all, and eat power when they die.

Enyalida:

I think he's really pointing at angels/demons though, which are pretty weak, don't seem to clump at all, and eat power when they die.

Guilty.

Enyalida:

He means, if you smack one Lady, all of them in a radius start tracking to you. I think he's really pointing at angels/demons though, which are pretty weak, don't seem to clump at all, and eat power when they die.

I think that's a bad idea too, I don't mind them being aggros and chasing after that, but no to all the mobs chasing if you hit one

Sidd:

I think that's a bad idea too, I don't mind them being aggros and chasing after that, but no to all the mobs chasing if you hit one

They don't have to all chase, but perhaps have those in nearby rooms begin chasing as well.

foolofsound:

They don't have to all chase, but perhaps have those in nearby rooms begin chasing as well.

Still not a fan of that, that's really throwing a wrench into combat in general. I have more fun when it's just 2-3 people against a whole lot more.

Sivas and I were having a really fun scuffle until too many ladies crashed our party. I encourage mechanically driven reasons for group conflict as long as they don't threaten singles/pairs because those have their own place too.

I agree with Sidd and Naia that small group combat (3v3 tops) is the most fun I've ever had. There was one time when Sidd was Nekotai and popped onto Celestia to raid in the dark HG/XI days. Azula (or some other lowbie) was a nublet them and went up to defend too, but I told them to just stay at Pool at Celestia and let me handle it.

And it was fun!

But then sometimes people weren't cool and were sore losers and would call a small army of people to come help them when they lost, and then it turned unfun.

So maybe a way to enforce small groups? Dimensional locks on loyal planes that only allow 3 raider and 5 defenders and can be broken by doing something on the plane? (slay aspects/elemental lords, kill and influence x amount of demons or angels, etc.)

I am not really sure what the overall issue/problem is that's trying to be resolved. Do you want more conflict? Easier way to raid? Harder to raid? More impact from raiding?

As a general thought, I am not keen on making raiding easier or anything that would require relentless or endless defense anytime, any place (which is why I like the village conflict, it happens sporadically and not an endless forever grind).

So, hrm, maybe someone who raids is locked on that plane and cannot leave it for X time?

foolofsound:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that require that you have a particular construct built (one for each plane) in order to get that effect?

My understanding is that it happens automatically, but is accelerated with the constructs.

Estarra:

I am not really sure what the overall issue/problem is that's trying to be resolved. Do you want more conflict? Easier way to raid? Harder to raid? More impact from raiding?

As a general thought, I am not keen on making raiding easier or anything that would require relentless or endless defense anytime, any place (which is why I like the village conflict, it happens sporadically and not an endless forever grind).

So, hrm, maybe someone who raids is locked on that plane and cannot leave it for X time?

I would like to see more impacts from raids, and those impacts broken into different tiers depending on the force brought to bear by both sides. Currently the impacts are "annoy enemies" or "kill all their demon lords, ect.". Basically, I would like raids that don't have objectives to either be given objectives, or to go away.

foolofsound:


I would like to see more impacts from raids, and those impacts broken into different tiers depending on the force brought to bear by both sides. Currently the impacts are "annoy enemies" or "kill all their demon lords, ect.". Basically, I would like raids that don't have objectives to either be given objectives, or to go away.

Go away is sounding nice! But don't some people like raiding for the sake of raiding?

Estarra:


Go away is sounding nice! But don't some people like raiding for the sake of raiding?

I like raiding for the sake of getting a fight most of the time, for a large group effort(DLs, Avatars, Spheres) part of the rest of the time and sometimes in retaliation.

The problem is, you have people like me who have no interest in fighting off raiders who have no objective but to annoy, since it makes them go away equally quickly if you don't show up at all. It pains me from an RP standpoint, but I just don't fell that dying a dozen times, even on my own plane, against a half dozen foes with a shrine and meld up is fun at all. Even when we have the forces to drive off a raid like that, it still drags me away from whatever I was doing in order to go entertain the raiders.

This is a horribly rough idea, and would take a lot of work to implement. But I always thought it would be interesting if the cosmic conflict quests were reworked or had an addition such that questing had to be done -before- you could raid. There could perhaps be benefits to doing this, but requiring a quest be done first would mean that its not just one person being bored annoying others on a whim, its something that would need to be worked on.

The short version of it is, you do a quest, and then for X amount of time, you can perform Y action in an enemy plane that would have Z effect. But then needs to be redone to weaken the plane again.

This sort of thing could be extended to villages too, doing a quest that allows your village to invade the enemy village, which for instance might occupy the village guards allowing you to go in and steal miners or whatever.

The big key is the quest itself isn't harming the enemy, it just opens the door for a limited amount of time for you to hurt them, and then after this defined time is up the defender has some time where they are safe until the quest can be done again.

I doubt this is practical due to the amount of coding/work required, but in theory it seems interesting.

My worry is if we remove raiding, where the outlet for people to 'attack' another org will suddenly crop up. On the other hand, if we give incentives to raids, suddenly it may be seen that an org "must" raid in order to compete. And since raiding is unregulated, we end up back with relentless, constant attacks on the weakest orgs.

I like the idea of having a short quest that gives the targeted org a warning open up raiding for a few hours. I'll post my full comments when I get back from work.

My "ideas" on the first post are very vague, since the problems are equally vague. Part of the point of this thread is to determine what should be done and how.