This is something I feel desperately needs to be addressed, but I don't think gets much attention. I came came back to Lusternia after a ~9 month absence recently and made characters in three of the six orgs to get a feel for the current state of each and decide which I would most enjoy my time in. After about a month I've finally settled on one character and I'm really enjoying myself, despite the fact that (no offense intended) I've gone with the org that was my third choice in terms of "what I want to roleplay."

I'm an odd person, I suppose, in that I tend to shy away from guilds that head Top Guilds continuously. This, of course, means that I'll commonly have to deal with the issue of waiting longer to get advanced in the guild and I accept that. There's a difference, however, between waiting because people aren't around and being completely ignored. By completely ignored, I specifically mean politely asking to be tested out of novicehood while some combination of GA/GM/Champion/undersecretaries/secretaries are onlilne and getting no response. Then waiting a couple hours, so as not to be impatient, with the same people and no response. I wouldn't think this to be an issue that needed bringing up if

1) I got told, any of those times, "I'm busy right now."
2) this was anything close to an isolated incident for me
3) I hadn't heard this same complaint from other people in reference to the same organizations

I consider myself a pretty patient person. I didn't, in any of the cases where this happened, repeatedly bother a specific person. I did, however, ask over GNT, wait an hour or two, repeat, another hour or two, ask through tells. Also, this wasn't when people were busy with domoths/raids, because they were on prime. I understand that people are busy doing other things and that things can come up, but after a while I feel it's a matter of simply neglecting your novices, which leads to them leaving your org/leaving Lusternia. I don't even have a personal interest in this any more, because I've settled on an org where I'm not dealing with this. But I felt it should be brought up, regardless, because I have a feeling that there are people other than those who have complained to me about it that are also turned off by it.

tl;dr
Don't neglect your novices/youngin's. If you're too busy to advance them, at least have the decency to acknowledge you heard them. If you feel your org is decaying, this could very well be the reason.

Novice work is a fairly dull, tedious and thankless task. Not that your frustrations aren't worth consideration. I think there needs to be more incentive for novice aides. I find it tiring even re-introducing former players to Lusternia and the million new things that require explanation.

As someone who has, in the past, worked extensively with novices both in Lusternia and Imperian, I recognize this. My question, then, is why people would take up the position if they don't find some enjoyment out of it.

Also, I'm not complaining about novices not getting orientations when they first join a guild. I'm referring to asking for simple novice tests that take all of five minutes - "Do you have those three vials? Do you have the requisite skills? You did all the college quests? Good."

Malicia:

Novice work is a fairly dull, tedious and thankless task. Not that your frustrations aren't worth consideration. I think there needs to be more incentive for novice aides. I find it tiring even re-introducing former players to Lusternia and the million new things that require explanation.

I disagree rather strongly, actually! Aiding novices is one of the things that has never gotten old for me, especially when they appreciate your helping them and seem legitimately interested in the RP side of things. It's really up to each individual if helping new players is fun and fulfilling or "dull, tedious, and thankless". You certainly can't expect everyone to be really into the idea, but that doesn't mean there's nobody who is.

I do think that even people who have no interest in helping should respond to/acknowledge a novice trying to find assistance. Not even just because they're a novice, but because ignoring people is sort of rude. Even if you're just saying "I can't help you, sorry", it's much better than not even letting them know anyone heard them. If you're not into helping, try directing them towards someone who is. "I can't help you right now, but try getting in touch with , they should be able to help."

If novice tests have gotten to the point where they are basically just a 'check list', why is there still a need to do these tests? I think it's only in IRE games where there's a built-in mechanic that limits what people can do at the early stages unless they pass some sort of 'exam.' It's fun when it works, but otherwise frustrating for both sides ala the above.

Interactions should be meaningful and based on dialogue between players, not testing them. For instance maybe there can be a 'graduation ceremony' for the characters, where it might make people feel more excited about sticking around the game longer, and guild admin won't feel like they're wasting time testing people who might leave in a few days.

I really think this is an artifact of how the games used to run, and with everything now happening at a much faster pace/people having shorter attention spans, along with so much more to do, perhaps it's time to reconsider the whole system altogether.

I feel that there should be a sort of "Collegium Final Exam" a gauntlet for novices to pass through. This would give mentors a definite set of things to teach, and still allow the novices to stand on their own. Coding in some sort of graduation ceremony would we very cool as well.

Naryisa:

As someone who has, in the past, worked extensively with novices both in Lusternia and Imperian, I recognize this. My question, then, is why people would take up the position if they don't find some enjoyment out of it.

Also, I'm not complaining about novices not getting orientations when they first join a guild. I'm referring to asking for simple novice tests that take all of five minutes - "Do you have those three vials? Do you have the requisite skills? You did all the college quests? Good."

People take up the task because they feel they have to. Sure there are some that enjoy it but in the past and for years, I've assisted out of necessity. Positions have to be filled and they get filled.

I've taken up the position a couple times, but only ever because I wanted to. I don't think that the majority of people become aides because -someone- needs to. If that were the case, I don't think I'd be seeing three guilds with a single undersec and three with none. Furthermore, having someone filling the position does nothing if they don't carry out the duties of said position.

I refuse to make anyone an undersec without knowing they are going to actually help novices, and they all know it's their top priority. We have awesome help now, which is probably why we've been sitting around the top of topguilds. That and we have awesome RP!

I used to get very frustrated that no one besides me would even bother greeting new novices, let alone directing them to their CGHELP scrolls. There would be at least 5 professors on too. If you're not interested in helping novices, not having your name down as a go to person when they need help isn't a bad idea. There was a long period where I had no active aides, (there was really no one available), so I and the rest of the Trinity stepped up and filled the role, as we should. If you're being ignored as a novice and not even your guild leaders are able to make time to help you there is something really wrong.

Phoebus:
I disagree rather strongly, actually! Aiding novices is one of the things that has never gotten old for me, especially when they appreciate your helping them and seem legitimately interested in the RP side of things.

Me too. One of the things that I think of when I try to find reasons to be logged in is the chance that I'll end up helping out with a novice. (It's never enough on its own, since it happens so rarely, but it has been a factor, at times that I decided there was enough good reasons to log in to outweigh the reasons not to.)

If a novice aide is on, and isn't answering your questions or helping with evaluations or giving a reason why they can't, you should message the guild admin about it (and who it was). If the GA isn't doing it, go to the GM. If neither are, well... you might be SOL.

The point has become moot for me, because the characters I experienced such conditions with were essentially created to be throw-aways unless I decided I did, in fact, enjoy the guild. That said, out of the four test characters (each of whom had at least 8 hours time online), in three cases the GA of the respective guild was part of the ignoring, in one case the GM was as well.

Name and shame

I had a feeling that would come up. As deplorable as I find this sort of behaviour, I also would consider it extremely bad form to be on the forums naming these people. The most specific I'll get is to say that two of the four characters I was testing with were Magnagoran.

I was afraid of that. If your characters were Cacophony, Ninjakari or Ur'Guard, it makes a lot of sense, as the guilds are largely empty, and even half the leaders are scarcely online. I'm pretty sure Geos are better, and if it was Nihilists....well I actually wouldn't believe it. We have uber aides who slobber all over novices and tie them to the Megalith so they know they're not neglected.

No, wasn't Nihilists in any case (see "I tend to shy away from guilds that head Top Guilds continuously").

As far as empty guilds - I consider a guild being empty an entirely different issue from the one which I have been discussing. I was saying that, out of four total "water-testing" characters, in three cases the GA was, in fact, around for extended periods of time when I was asking for time and receiving no response.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that, I understand when it's an empty guild. There's nothing to be done in that case, and it certainly doesn't qualify as being ignored or neglected. The repeated scenario I'm discussing is:

"Oh, look. (Undersecretary/secretary/GA) is online. Maybe one of them can advance me."
GNT: I finished these things that I'm supposed to do. If somebody gets the chance, could they advance me?
-silence for 1-3 hours, in which these people remain online, before I try again.

Part of this is probably due to afking. As a GC, I have made it a point never to afk except in an area where I can't be seen/reached (ie logged out, newsed) so as to not give the false impression that I am ignoring someone. However, even I sometimes slip up and just idle at the nexus for a while due to something that I had to immediately attend to.

When this problem is not an isolated case, and is happening to multiple people in the guild at the same time, then it's very likely the guild leaders need a proper lesson on etiquette. This isn't even a newbie welcoming problem. It's general courtesy. If you're going to afk and end up ignoring people for extended periods of time, do it in news or your manse, or the demi havens or just plain log out. Thankfully, from what I know of lusternia, it isn't actually as widespread as it may seem. Bringing it up on the forums is a good first step, but the next one will be to let the org leaders of that guild know. If the GM himself is guilty of chronic afking for unreasonable amounts of time (more than 2 hours, as the OP's first post describes), go to the City leader. Someone needs to tell these people, OOCly or ICly, to pull up their socks.

Lavinya:

I was afraid of that. If your characters were Cacophony, Ninjakari or Ur'Guard, it makes a lot of sense, as the guilds are largely empty, and even half the leaders are scarcely online. I'm pretty sure Geos are better, and if it was Nihilists....well I actually wouldn't believe it. We have uber aides who slobber all over novices and tie them to the Megalith so they know they're not neglected.

I was helping novices for some time in Mag, particularly in the Cacophony. I basically became discouraged and gave up when I realized that most of my novices quit anyway thanks to other, less friendly Mags.

I don't think this is a huge problem as seems to be implied.

If I notice that a newbie has progressed to novicehood (no longer a student), and I know I won't be able to log in properly for a while, I send them a message. I've conducted tests via message as well, because unfortunately, living on the other side of the planet means I'm at work during 'peak' times.

Anyway, it's fine to create alts to see which org/guild suits you best, but spare a thought for those who have had to deal with those who create 'throwaway' alts such as these you describe. Some of us enjoy interacting with novices, some of us do it because we feel we have to, some of us do it because they'll incur my wrath if they don't --- but, I sympathise with those who feel worn out by administering tests (which can take a considerable amount of time) and attempting to interact with those who were always just going to disappear anyway. It's disheartening, and doesn't make the 'job' any more enjoyable.

I spent a good hour and a half administering a test yesterday to someone I know is an alt and may or may not stick around and be useful. It wasn't especially fun for me. But it happens, whatever.

Anyway, tl;dr: I doubt anyone is purposefully ignoring newbies. We are human, and plenty of excuses can be brought forth for specific incidents. If novice-helpers are ignoring novices, as Lerad says, someone should be messaging the GA/GM/CL to let them know. I'm not very scary, but I brandish that disfavour button with purpose. IC msgs plz.

I understand not wanting to deal with "throw-away alts." In none of the cases did I create a character as such. Instead, it was after 8 or 10 hours of my time that I decided, "Wow. I feel like this is not at all working." I, personally, would not be around more than an hour unless I had the intention of actually playing the character. I definitely wouldn't go through the trouble of getting everything taken care of for a novice test and try to find someone if it was going to be a throw away alt.

I have enough respect for the people who administer the exams not to ask for one if I don't plan on sticking around. In a decade of playing IRE games, I've dealt with A LOT of obvious alts that disappeared quickly. And, often, were also rude. It sucks, I realize this.

I was only complaining about the lack of response over extended periods of time. And yes, as has been mentioned, being AFK has to be taken into account. What caused me to bring it up at all was the fact that there were two cases where the respective GAs were involved (thus me not messaging them) and were obviously not AFK, because in one case the GA was having what seemed a casual conversation over CT, in the other case having a casual conversation in the room with me.