Illusions got broken a bit ago but it was discovered now. Good thinking, but I don't think it should stay that way, nor wait for an Envoy report:

Here's what happened: with the introduction of stratagems, eqless or balanceless illusions can be chained with the attack itself right away, making it indiscernible to the plain eye* from the illusion detection of Discernment:

Draylor plays Graeira, mandolin of Celestial Light and directs the exquisite notes towards you.
The lyrical sound invokes a strange longing for Draylor.
Your eye immediately notices the flaws in what is obviously an illusion.

Can you tell if that was a real illusion catch or a fake illusion catch? With stratagem, you can't. Without it, you could have, as this would not made sense:

Draylor plays Graeira, mandolin of Celestial Light and directs the exquisite notes towards you.
The lyrical sound invokes a strange longing for Draylor.
8520h, 7911m, 6394e, 10p, 26660w elrxkdb<>-
Your eye immediately notices the flaws in what is obviously an illusion.
8520h, 7911m, 6394e, 10p, 26660w elrxkdb<>-

For all it matters, you cannot trust the illusion detection of Discernment anymore. The game does not colour the real line, illusioninsts can attack & illusion all at once.

I don't believe that Stratagems should have affected combat this greatly, and even broken illusion detection of Discernment. This has been found out, this needs to be fixed immediately because these were not the intended consequences of Stratagem - and that is a very profound effect on skills that break your abilities (Discernment Illusions).

* yes, you can add code and etcetera work around this. I don't mind doing that either, mind you, or anyone else I'm sure. It should not have to be this way however - it is theologically broken, and this is not the behaviour we expected either.

Couldn't you also just make an alias to make the illusion weave at the same time as the attack anyway?

Prior to stratagems it was not possible to do something like that, as you say, specifically because the game would put a prompt between each line.

I agree that stratagems should not have enabled such a combination (for either mages or wand-holders), because... well, it does break Arts.

But what is the solution? The only thing I could really think of was making it so that Weave can't be put into a stratagem, at which point-- are there other things that shouldn't go in stratagems?

(That said, even with that concern, I'm still of the opinion that Weave should be blocked from getting added into stratagems as it opens a completely new avenue for illusions that wasn't part of the original design-- or there'd have been a way to do it)

No, because then you would see what you see in Quote #2.

Kialkarkea:

Couldn't you also just make an alias to make the illusion weave at the same time as the attack anyway?

No. Timing it causes a new prompt between the lines.

Bloody ninjas :P

Kialkarkea:

Couldn't you also just make an alias to make the illusion weave at the same time as the attack anyway?

Nope, that has a prompt between the two.

Before stratagems it would go onto a new prompt.

Edit: Zomgsomanyninjas.

C-c-c-combo breaker.

Isn't this a combat balance issue with a specific skill? Why can't this be handled through envoys? It is strange to me that anytime I say something should be handled outside of the envoy system because it should be fixed quickly I'm a whiner, and when you guys do it's theological correction.

Technically, it was possible before - if things happen really simultaneously, the game will put them in between the same pair of prompts. And I've actually had exactly this happen before (the system ignoring lines that were completely unconnected to the illusion because they were inbetween the same prompts as the actual illusion and the illusion detection came up). However, this was pretty much impossible to redo on purpose, even if you use timers for passives. As it is now, it should really be fixed.

Morbo:

Isn't this a combat balance issue with a specific skill? Why can't this be handled through envoys? It is strange to me that anytime I say something should be handled outside of the envoy system because it should be fixed quickly I'm a whiner, and when you guys do it's theological correction.

No, I personally see it as misusing stratagems and having them act in ways that was totally not intended. Why should we have to waste our time coding round things like this?

Morbo:

Isn't this a combat balance issue with a specific skill? Why can't this be handled through envoys? It is strange to me that anytime I say something should be handled outside of the envoy system because it should be fixed quickly I'm a whiner, and when you guys do it's theological correction.

Hi /divert.

I also tell you to take things to the forums quite often; we're simply doing what we advise! Without lengthy whines on the Envoy channel, there's a post that explains the issue and asks for a resolution. What's the problem?

Also, why should it wait a month and a half for an envoy report? It's more serious an issue than that.

If you feel something is bugged or not working as intended, then you should BUG it.

Zvoltz:

If you feel something is bugged or not working as intended, then you should BUG it.

Did, it's not a bug.

Doesn't mean it's a good design decision though, hence the forum discussion! More people should be involved in figuring out whether this is appropriate, the players who are concerned need to make their thoughts known, and so on.

I'm not really sure what the best solution is aside from just blocking weaving from going in, but I feel that something should be done.

I don't see the distinction here between using reality to break into guild halls or order hall inner temples (something that you yourself have done Veyrzhul) and using stratagems in a new way. Was reality created to aide people in entering areas they are not supposed to have access? No, it certainly was not. But it is used that way and despite complaints your side has defended it as just clever usage of skills. It seems silly to act that this is a different situation. Infact, this can be scripted against, you can't script against reality.

Morbo:

I don't see the distinction here between using reality to break into guild halls or order hall inner temples (something that you yourself have done Veyrzhul) and using stratagems in a new way. Was reality created to aide people in entering areas they are not supposed to have access? No, it certainly was not. But it is used that way and despite complaints your side has defended it as just clever usage of skills. It seems silly to act that this is a different situation. Infact, this can be scripted against, you can't script against reality.

Reality (along with Hamster, Convoke, and the like) appear to be specifically designed and intended to work the way they do. I know I've asked them not to be able to drop people into inner rooms before, but it's never been rectified and bug reports about it have been dismissed.

That's the distinction; skills of that nature have existed for quite a while now, and are (for some unknown reason) intended to do what they do. Players have moved on from trying to get it fixed to just (ab)using 'em.

This is a brand-new combination of effects that shouldn't have been enabled (stratagems were most definitely not intended to make this feasible, can you even try to dispute that?), so... uh. Bad comparison.

I don't see how this is 'breaking' illusions at all, you're really being over dramatic there. The idea behind illusions in combat is making your opponent think twice and spend time double checking things. I think this is just is a new clever strategy that people are getting bent out of shape over. Systems will figure out how to handle it and we'll all move on, just like any other time something new has made people cry foul.

I also think statements like "having them act in ways that was totally not intended" are over-reaching, because I seriously doubt you know 100% what the admins do and do not intend when they add or change things. So try a different argument, until someone with the authority to do so can clarify intentions.

I don't think I've used reality even once in my whole Lusternia career, let alone to get into any places. However, getting into places and breaking a complete (important) aspect of fighting illusionists are quite different in importance, I think. How would you like it if a warrior made parry/stance completely impossible? You can still fight them like that, but it certainly gives them an undue and unintended edge.

hamsters have been removed from popular circulation, (I don't know waht you're talking about throwing convoke in, convoke is just a summon replica) But stratagem was specifically made to stack abilities together. That's how I am using it. I am pretty sure this is exactly how it was intended to be used

Lilia:

I don't see how this is 'breaking' illusions at all, you're really being over dramatic there. The idea behind illusions in combat is making your opponent think twice and spend time double checking things. I think this is just is a new clever strategy that people are getting bent out of shape over. Systems will figure out how to handle it and we'll all move on, just like any other time something new has made people cry foul.

I also think statements like "having them act in ways that was totally not intended" are over-reaching, because I seriously doubt you know 100% what the admins do and do not intend when they add or change things. So try a different argument, until someone with the authority to do so can clarify intentions.

I have a tell conversation with an Admin in my buffer that explicitly states this wasn't the design for it. It's called "innovative" (which it is), it discusses ways of working around it, but it's all starting from the basic premise that this is a combination that was not foreseen when stratagems went in.