Enyalida2012-06-06 22:48:36
The admins asked for a special report on Shamanism, now that it has been out for a while. I was working on it, but was out of town for the submission date, but they extended it somewhat!
Here are my initial notes on each skill that could do with some tuning up. I will be marking which are most important as I edit this post, and will be including actual report-esque Problem/Solution forms, with my reasons for statements, just as soon as I write them. If something is not on the list, it's probably a skill or facet of a skill that works fine and dandy, if you have any doubts about that, bring them up!
My original posts on the matter are here. I have changed some things based around the recent Druidry report.
General:
-Raise wind changes from 3 to 4-5
-Add in a skill that reveals the change limits on an area or room.
Lightburst
-Raise requirement on clouds to 5?
-Drop power cost on single target
Trance
-Make a separate message to stop a Trance when you want to. Or allow an emote to do that!
Cloudburst
-Make this work like Nature - Rain in all adjacent rooms, clearing stink on rooms and people within.
MicroPrecip/Wind/Temp
-Remove power cost.
Weatherguard
-Drop wind-trees protection, pending treebourne
-Add in movement change resist
-Add in mild weathersight, only sees through fog/rain/blizzard, not any demesne effects.
Sky
-Present: Needs some way to strip Levi or ignore it. Levi strip may go in Druidry though.
-Future: Needs some change
Bloom
-Present: Needs to give less of a reliable masked aff. Extend blackout?
Microquake
-Add in a delay timer.
Mudslick
-Extend time limit
-Extend terrains?
Bone
-Future: Make this either faster, more reliable, rechecking, or preventative.
Quake
-Add in a delay timer
-Lower power to 1-2p
Frogs
-Make passive
OR
-Make it a chosen poison
Root
-Present: Fix the golem.
-Make the golem moveable
-Make the golem more reliable
Pressure
-I need to test this post-change before saying anything.
Fierceweather
-Adjust slickness ticks.
Land
-Present: Expand terrains, lower power cost when not tranced.
Snowman
-Make targetable
OR
-Make it hit everyone
-Increase speed
-Add in extras if already afflicted
Imprint
-I'm still thinking about this one. I'd prefer it to be a set value instead of a shifting one, for mechanical and RP purposes.
Freeze
-Make shrouded
-Increase freezing levels
-Enable FREEZE GROUND or some alternate. I like ice spikes that damage when you go prone.
Lightning
-Allow in more temps
-Allow targeting out of demesne for less damage.
Death
-Roll back changes.
-Go with suggested changes in report 831
OR
-Remove the maximum on cycles.
Here are my initial notes on each skill that could do with some tuning up. I will be marking which are most important as I edit this post, and will be including actual report-esque Problem/Solution forms, with my reasons for statements, just as soon as I write them. If something is not on the list, it's probably a skill or facet of a skill that works fine and dandy, if you have any doubts about that, bring them up!
My original posts on the matter are here. I have changed some things based around the recent Druidry report.
General:
-Raise wind changes from 3 to 4-5
-Add in a skill that reveals the change limits on an area or room.
Lightburst
-Raise requirement on clouds to 5?
-Drop power cost on single target
Trance
-Make a separate message to stop a Trance when you want to. Or allow an emote to do that!
Cloudburst
-Make this work like Nature - Rain in all adjacent rooms, clearing stink on rooms and people within.
MicroPrecip/Wind/Temp
-Remove power cost.
Weatherguard
-Drop wind-trees protection, pending treebourne
-Add in movement change resist
-Add in mild weathersight, only sees through fog/rain/blizzard, not any demesne effects.
Sky
-Present: Needs some way to strip Levi or ignore it. Levi strip may go in Druidry though.
-Future: Needs some change
Bloom
-Present: Needs to give less of a reliable masked aff. Extend blackout?
Microquake
-Add in a delay timer.
Mudslick
-Extend time limit
-Extend terrains?
Bone
-Future: Make this either faster, more reliable, rechecking, or preventative.
Quake
-Add in a delay timer
-Lower power to 1-2p
Frogs
-Make passive
OR
-Make it a chosen poison
Root
-Present: Fix the golem.
-Make the golem moveable
-Make the golem more reliable
Pressure
-I need to test this post-change before saying anything.
Fierceweather
-Adjust slickness ticks.
Land
-Present: Expand terrains, lower power cost when not tranced.
Snowman
-Make targetable
OR
-Make it hit everyone
-Increase speed
-Add in extras if already afflicted
Imprint
-I'm still thinking about this one. I'd prefer it to be a set value instead of a shifting one, for mechanical and RP purposes.
Freeze
-Make shrouded
-Increase freezing levels
-Enable FREEZE GROUND or some alternate. I like ice spikes that damage when you go prone.
Lightning
-Allow in more temps
-Allow targeting out of demesne for less damage.
Death
-Roll back changes.
-Go with suggested changes in report 831
OR
-Remove the maximum on cycles.
Unknown2012-06-07 01:31:14
Thoughts:
The change limits on areas/rooms seem like something the druid guilds should test and record in a book for their guild library.
Trance should definitely give a message when it ends if it doesn't already. Likewise with an UNTRANCE command.
The micro weather changes should still have a power cost, imho, as without one a druid could just walk around the area changing the local weather for free. Maybe add an ability around Virt that extends the effect range on the micro changes from 1-5 to 1-10?
Shamanism already has lots of movement resist, more than most skillsets. Would prefer some other effect.
Maybe expand the regen on Future Sky to mana and ego as well?
I can get behind the idea of a timer for the quake abilities and maybe adjusting the power, depending on how long the stun is.
The "passively avoid breaking bones" thing is already available via Crow facepaints, and Discipline has the active "spend EQ to fix broken bones" power, so that leaves making it faster or more likely to proc, I guess.
Frogs doesn't really seem to see much use. Is it already area wide? If not, that would probably be a better choice than making it passive, and if so, then making it passive would be too strong.
No objections to the golem change.
Making the snowman hit everyone is iffy on prime, due to Avenger. Would prefer making it targetable.
For Death, could you post report 831? Report List is currently invisible to non-envoys.
Also, personal request: Allow Forecast in Discernment to report the numerical temperature again, or make a cheap dingbat item (10db would be ideal) that does the same.
The change limits on areas/rooms seem like something the druid guilds should test and record in a book for their guild library.
Trance should definitely give a message when it ends if it doesn't already. Likewise with an UNTRANCE command.
The micro weather changes should still have a power cost, imho, as without one a druid could just walk around the area changing the local weather for free. Maybe add an ability around Virt that extends the effect range on the micro changes from 1-5 to 1-10?
Shamanism already has lots of movement resist, more than most skillsets. Would prefer some other effect.
Maybe expand the regen on Future Sky to mana and ego as well?
I can get behind the idea of a timer for the quake abilities and maybe adjusting the power, depending on how long the stun is.
The "passively avoid breaking bones" thing is already available via Crow facepaints, and Discipline has the active "spend EQ to fix broken bones" power, so that leaves making it faster or more likely to proc, I guess.
Frogs doesn't really seem to see much use. Is it already area wide? If not, that would probably be a better choice than making it passive, and if so, then making it passive would be too strong.
No objections to the golem change.
Making the snowman hit everyone is iffy on prime, due to Avenger. Would prefer making it targetable.
For Death, could you post report 831? Report List is currently invisible to non-envoys.
Also, personal request: Allow Forecast in Discernment to report the numerical temperature again, or make a cheap dingbat item (10db would be ideal) that does the same.
Shamarah2012-06-07 02:24:34
So I admittedly don't know very much about this skillset, but surely 23 of 35 skills cannot possibly require changes? I feel like you should focus this down a bit.
Sidd2012-06-07 03:52:47
Land is fine, with as much as people complain about reality, making the enemy-only version of that more accessible (extremely extremely more powerful) is uncalled for.
Sky future is kind of meh, sky present is fine, as is bone and bloom.
I thought root golem was fine before, but now with the introduction of allergies and the increase in writhe-time dependant on allergy level, it's even more so. Passive entangle in sap is great as is, doesn't need to be better (even if it does have slow tics). As for moving it, that's fine.
demesnes already got a huge boost, don't need to add passive frogs to that.
Honestly, Most of this report just seems extraneous. Cloudburst being an improved nature rain, sure, why not, but do you -really- need it. Shamanism is a pretty strong skillset that needs only minor tweaks. Part of it's idea (in my opinion, I could be wrong with the admin vision) is that certain skills are usable in certain weather schemes and in different terrains, so some skills are more useful in one area than another. Some of the minor tweaks are fine, but I noticed some things aren't being toned down either. What about Claws or Quicksand? You want to buff it by a lot, but it definitely doesn't need that.
Sky future is kind of meh, sky present is fine, as is bone and bloom.
I thought root golem was fine before, but now with the introduction of allergies and the increase in writhe-time dependant on allergy level, it's even more so. Passive entangle in sap is great as is, doesn't need to be better (even if it does have slow tics). As for moving it, that's fine.
demesnes already got a huge boost, don't need to add passive frogs to that.
Honestly, Most of this report just seems extraneous. Cloudburst being an improved nature rain, sure, why not, but do you -really- need it. Shamanism is a pretty strong skillset that needs only minor tweaks. Part of it's idea (in my opinion, I could be wrong with the admin vision) is that certain skills are usable in certain weather schemes and in different terrains, so some skills are more useful in one area than another. Some of the minor tweaks are fine, but I noticed some things aren't being toned down either. What about Claws or Quicksand? You want to buff it by a lot, but it definitely doesn't need that.
Enyalida2012-06-07 06:12:53
Wait for me to explain what I have planned for all of this, a lot of the comments so far are misguided! For instance, when I said Frogs as a passive, I meant a short (45s-1m) passive in a single room, not a demesne effect! Likewise, the weatherguard note was resistance to movement alteration through weather, not more movement resists!
These are the whole of the things that I can see changing within the skillset to raise the viability of what is currently there, without adding any brand new functionality or greatly altering the feel of the skillset. Some of these are far more important than others!
I've just returned home, but am already writing explanations for stuff.
These are the whole of the things that I can see changing within the skillset to raise the viability of what is currently there, without adding any brand new functionality or greatly altering the feel of the skillset. Some of these are far more important than others!
I've just returned home, but am already writing explanations for stuff.
Enyalida2012-06-07 07:17:35
I will prioritize those things that are minor (easy) but very useful, then those things that are important, and finish with those things that are both minor and of minor use. I will then address concerns raised. Here are the first round of suggestions.
Wind changes - Simple
Problem: Wind is measured in knots. Changing the wind via any mthod only changes it by 3 knots, while the effects of wind appear to begin at 30 knots. Compared to the average changes to temperature and cloud cover required to create an effect, wind often requires more attention.
Solution: Up the increment of change from 3 to 4.
Change Limits - Simple
Problem: Area and room changes can be severely limited, and not always in predictable ways. This means that it is easy to waste power trying to achieve a particular condition only to find out (several chunks of power and time later) that the area you are in will not permit that sort of change. It also strikes me as odd that Shamans can't feel out the natural 'grooves' of the weather in an area.
Solution: Create an empowered version of Forecast that gives a measure of the pliability of the weather in an area. This can even be in the form of a question/answer type skill. For instance: "FORECAST TEMPERATURE UP -> You stare intently into the sky and listen to the world around you, detecting that it is as warm here as it will get." or something. If asked, I can work on some text for that.
Land - Simple
Problem: Land trance does not work in natural underground (or any indoor room), or in swamps, deserts, and beaches.
Solution: Extend land to Swamps and indoor rooms. Beaches and Deserts would be nice (especially the latter), but they're okay.
Weatherguard - Simple
Problem: I didn't remember if weatherguard already had resistance to movement slowing, but it does. Weatherguard currently does these things: 1) immunity to heat hunger*, 2) 33% protection against losing says to wind, 3) 33% protection against falling from wind while flying, 4) 33% protection from being blown from the trees, 5) 33% protection against natural weather freezing 6) movement change resistance. With report 882, number 4 should become obsolete.
Solution: Make weatherguard allow the Shaman to see through natural fog, rainstorms, and blizzards.
Solution: If it does not already, 6) should scale to skill in Shamanism. Everything could in theory.
Death Trance - Important
Problem: While the recent report added in a bit of mobility, this skill still remains problematic. It still takes 10 seconds to come into focus after being tranced, and still goes out of usability after 10 seconds of potency. This means that it's fairly hard to coordinate in a real fight. In addition, after it cycles 10 times, you've wasted the 7 power required to trance it. This means that you can't set this up too far ahead of time, though 10 cycles is a long time. You can move, but it starts a new cycle, counting down from the 10 you've got. Pointing (activating the insta) uses 3 power whether or not it works. Success erases all trances the Shaman has going, stripping away a lot of their power and enforcing a 1.5 minute timer on reusing the death trance, 45 seconds assuming the Shaman is at a ceremonial fire and performs no other commands.
Solution: Remove the 10 cycle limit, raise the charge time back to 15 seconds. The fact that it takes 15 seconds of standing still to regain the potency of the trance is enough to limit the mobility of this skill.
Fierceweather - Important
Problem: The passive slickness and cold hits on fierceweather come every 5 seconds, which seems quite fast.
Solution: Slow this down to 7-10 seconds, unless the weather is enormously hot/cold.
Snowman - Important
Problem: The snowman hits a single random enemy in the room with either a single freeze or sprawl (50% chance for either), every 12 seconds, respecting fire potion as normal. Because it's a random effect on a random target, and both of the effects are quite mild, it's not all that useful. In fact, in group combat it provides no tangible use at all. I was going to ask that this hit twice as fast, but the advent of Fierceweather-Cold makes that unnecessary.
Solution 1: Enable ORDER SNOWMAN KILL to target the snowman.
Solution 2: Have the snowman give a short blackout if you are frozen and it hits with a freezing attack. If you are prone and it hits with a proning attack, have it break a single leg.
Solution 3: As 2, but with a (very) short stun instead of a broken leg when hit with prone while sprawled.
Freeze - Important
Problem: This item and the one above it are trying to address a problem with the 'cold strategy' of Shamanism. The idea is that you try to get the enemy totally frozen with impatience and confusion on them so that they are thrown off-eq periodically and have a hard time getting back. This is only really achievable for a HS druid with really lucky ancestral curse and a huge amount of luck between passive freezes, snowman, and active freezes to outpace curing in sap. Freeze itself works exactly like Elementalism - Freeze except that it requires below freezing temperatures to pull off. It does not have the FREEZE GROUND functionality, and is no more supported than Elementalism - Freeze is by Aquamancy. Spamming this on a sapped target does not get them to freezing that often when I've tried, BT might have more luck with the mactans demesne effect.
Solution 1a: Have freeze do two hits of cold. If you have fire up, it will strip the fire defense and give you chills. If you do not, it will freeze you solid. This is balanced by the many limitations to the scope of the skill (Can only be cast in freezing temps. Can only be cast on the Elemental, Ethereal, and Prime planes. Can only be cast outside.).
OR
Solution 1b: Shroud the effects of freeze. The idea is that it's already so cold that you don't notice it getting any colder when the shaman freezes you.
Solution 2: Add a FREEZE GROUND syntax. Instead of working like elementalism's freeze ground, this would create icicles on the ground that do some minor damage/bleeding when you are proned, or some similar effect.
Sky (Present) - Important
Problem: This functions kind of like Aeromancy raise staff, except on an entire enemy group for 5p. It is summon resistible. Like raise, if you cannot fly and are not levitating you will fall and take a concussion/damage. However, unlike AeroRaise, it does not strip levitation and the Shaman has no other way to strip levitation. Treebane is powered up on a target that is not levitating.
Solution 1: Drop the power cost to 1/2. Drop the target to single person. Make the first hit strip levitation, make the second hit fling into the sky.
Solution 2: Leave the current syntax as it is, but create an alternate single person syntax that strips levitation on a target for 0-1p.
Frogs - Important
Problem: Frogs currently does a single hit of charybdon to a group. This poison is shruggable. Druids are based around focusing upon a single target via sap, so such a random poison hit isn't of much use, especially not on a normal balance. The majority of poison afflictions are subpar when not paired with an immediate alternate attack specifically coordinated with that poison, as that is what they were balanced around (monks/warriors). This makes it generally a waste of balance to use.
Solution 1: Make Frogs a short lived passive in the room it is cast in, much like mudslick and tornado. It would try and hit every enemy in the room with the current effect every 10-ish seconds.
Solution 2: Make frogs be a targetable poison, as the Shaman calls particular frogs down. Shorten the balance time.
Quicksand - Important
Problem: Quicksand allows the druid to quickly halt all tumbling and slow nearly all movement from a room for 5p. While leap/pogo type movement and CLIMB UP/DOWN bypass this, and though this skill hits everyone - even the caster, it is still quite potent.
Solution: Make quicksand take 10-15 seconds to come into effect in a room. This is not a channeled action, simply a warning before tumbles are disabled. The rubble effect should begin immediately upon casting. Once in effect, everyone who enters that room is instantly within the full quicksand effect, this change is just time at the beginning that the ground is softening up!
EDIT: Edited for readability. I'll be back in the mornin' to write more and respond to feedback.
Wind changes - Simple
Problem: Wind is measured in knots. Changing the wind via any mthod only changes it by 3 knots, while the effects of wind appear to begin at 30 knots. Compared to the average changes to temperature and cloud cover required to create an effect, wind often requires more attention.
Solution: Up the increment of change from 3 to 4.
Change Limits - Simple
Problem: Area and room changes can be severely limited, and not always in predictable ways. This means that it is easy to waste power trying to achieve a particular condition only to find out (several chunks of power and time later) that the area you are in will not permit that sort of change. It also strikes me as odd that Shamans can't feel out the natural 'grooves' of the weather in an area.
Solution: Create an empowered version of Forecast that gives a measure of the pliability of the weather in an area. This can even be in the form of a question/answer type skill. For instance: "FORECAST TEMPERATURE UP -> You stare intently into the sky and listen to the world around you, detecting that it is as warm here as it will get." or something. If asked, I can work on some text for that.
Land - Simple
Problem: Land trance does not work in natural underground (or any indoor room), or in swamps, deserts, and beaches.
Solution: Extend land to Swamps and indoor rooms. Beaches and Deserts would be nice (especially the latter), but they're okay.
Weatherguard - Simple
Problem: I didn't remember if weatherguard already had resistance to movement slowing, but it does. Weatherguard currently does these things: 1) immunity to heat hunger*, 2) 33% protection against losing says to wind, 3) 33% protection against falling from wind while flying, 4) 33% protection from being blown from the trees, 5) 33% protection against natural weather freezing 6) movement change resistance. With report 882, number 4 should become obsolete.
Solution: Make weatherguard allow the Shaman to see through natural fog, rainstorms, and blizzards.
Solution: If it does not already, 6) should scale to skill in Shamanism. Everything could in theory.
Death Trance - Important
Problem: While the recent report added in a bit of mobility, this skill still remains problematic. It still takes 10 seconds to come into focus after being tranced, and still goes out of usability after 10 seconds of potency. This means that it's fairly hard to coordinate in a real fight. In addition, after it cycles 10 times, you've wasted the 7 power required to trance it. This means that you can't set this up too far ahead of time, though 10 cycles is a long time. You can move, but it starts a new cycle, counting down from the 10 you've got. Pointing (activating the insta) uses 3 power whether or not it works. Success erases all trances the Shaman has going, stripping away a lot of their power and enforcing a 1.5 minute timer on reusing the death trance, 45 seconds assuming the Shaman is at a ceremonial fire and performs no other commands.
Solution: Remove the 10 cycle limit, raise the charge time back to 15 seconds. The fact that it takes 15 seconds of standing still to regain the potency of the trance is enough to limit the mobility of this skill.
Fierceweather - Important
Problem: The passive slickness and cold hits on fierceweather come every 5 seconds, which seems quite fast.
Solution: Slow this down to 7-10 seconds, unless the weather is enormously hot/cold.
Snowman - Important
Problem: The snowman hits a single random enemy in the room with either a single freeze or sprawl (50% chance for either), every 12 seconds, respecting fire potion as normal. Because it's a random effect on a random target, and both of the effects are quite mild, it's not all that useful. In fact, in group combat it provides no tangible use at all. I was going to ask that this hit twice as fast, but the advent of Fierceweather-Cold makes that unnecessary.
Solution 1: Enable ORDER SNOWMAN KILL
Solution 2: Have the snowman give a short blackout if you are frozen and it hits with a freezing attack. If you are prone and it hits with a proning attack, have it break a single leg.
Solution 3: As 2, but with a (very) short stun instead of a broken leg when hit with prone while sprawled.
Freeze - Important
Problem: This item and the one above it are trying to address a problem with the 'cold strategy' of Shamanism. The idea is that you try to get the enemy totally frozen with impatience and confusion on them so that they are thrown off-eq periodically and have a hard time getting back. This is only really achievable for a HS druid with really lucky ancestral curse and a huge amount of luck between passive freezes, snowman, and active freezes to outpace curing in sap. Freeze itself works exactly like Elementalism - Freeze except that it requires below freezing temperatures to pull off. It does not have the FREEZE GROUND functionality, and is no more supported than Elementalism - Freeze is by Aquamancy. Spamming this on a sapped target does not get them to freezing that often when I've tried, BT might have more luck with the mactans demesne effect.
Solution 1a: Have freeze do two hits of cold. If you have fire up, it will strip the fire defense and give you chills. If you do not, it will freeze you solid. This is balanced by the many limitations to the scope of the skill (Can only be cast in freezing temps. Can only be cast on the Elemental, Ethereal, and Prime planes. Can only be cast outside.).
OR
Solution 1b: Shroud the effects of freeze. The idea is that it's already so cold that you don't notice it getting any colder when the shaman freezes you.
Solution 2: Add a FREEZE GROUND syntax. Instead of working like elementalism's freeze ground, this would create icicles on the ground that do some minor damage/bleeding when you are proned, or some similar effect.
Sky (Present) - Important
Problem: This functions kind of like Aeromancy raise staff, except on an entire enemy group for 5p. It is summon resistible. Like raise, if you cannot fly and are not levitating you will fall and take a concussion/damage. However, unlike AeroRaise, it does not strip levitation and the Shaman has no other way to strip levitation. Treebane is powered up on a target that is not levitating.
Solution 1: Drop the power cost to 1/2. Drop the target to single person. Make the first hit strip levitation, make the second hit fling into the sky.
Solution 2: Leave the current syntax as it is, but create an alternate single person syntax that strips levitation on a target for 0-1p.
Frogs - Important
Problem: Frogs currently does a single hit of charybdon to a group. This poison is shruggable. Druids are based around focusing upon a single target via sap, so such a random poison hit isn't of much use, especially not on a normal balance. The majority of poison afflictions are subpar when not paired with an immediate alternate attack specifically coordinated with that poison, as that is what they were balanced around (monks/warriors). This makes it generally a waste of balance to use.
Solution 1: Make Frogs a short lived passive in the room it is cast in, much like mudslick and tornado. It would try and hit every enemy in the room with the current effect every 10-ish seconds.
Solution 2: Make frogs be a targetable poison, as the Shaman calls particular frogs down. Shorten the balance time.
Quicksand - Important
Problem: Quicksand allows the druid to quickly halt all tumbling and slow nearly all movement from a room for 5p. While leap/pogo type movement and CLIMB UP/DOWN bypass this, and though this skill hits everyone - even the caster, it is still quite potent.
Solution: Make quicksand take 10-15 seconds to come into effect in a room. This is not a channeled action, simply a warning before tumbles are disabled. The rubble effect should begin immediately upon casting. Once in effect, everyone who enters that room is instantly within the full quicksand effect, this change is just time at the beginning that the ground is softening up!
EDIT: Edited for readability. I'll be back in the mornin' to write more and respond to feedback.
Raeri2012-06-07 13:01:01
Sky seems more comparable to Ecology Valleysmudge, which also suffers from inability to strip levitate. Perhaps both could be addressed together, as a functionality thing (since everyone and their basic guild task completing novices has a levitate enchant nowadays)
Unknown2012-06-07 15:57:58
Change Druidry Roots from digging up people to passively stripping levitation, with some other effect if it is stripped, maybe proning.
Enyalida2012-06-08 20:02:39
Here are more, sorry it was slow, I'm particularly busy at the moment. More when I get back from the store.
Bloom (Present) - Important
Problem: Bloom currently does dizzyness and confusion for 1p on a normal balance timer, with the vapors affliction thrown in if the trance is in the present 'tense'. Because these two (or three) afflictions are cured on different balances and are absolutely predictable, curing them is trivial. Even in sap, only the confusion and vapors have any effect, and are still easily cured while the sapped person is waiting for their writhes to complete. Making the afflicting a little less predictable and including some better affs (Than dizzy) fixes it. Not certain on the list for this, taking advice. I threw in some powerful ones, as this is really the Shaman's main method of affliction. Solutions 2/3 not really intended to be implemented together.
Solution: Have bloom give two of: Addiction, Confusion, Dementia, Stupidity, Dizzy. This has some good affs, but it also has some bum affs that lessen the impact.
Solution: When in present tense, have bloom have a chance (33-50%) to do a third aff, and expand the aff list with epilepsy and daydreaming.
Solution: When in the present tense, have the vapors hit before the rest, so that there is no real thirdperson message.
Root (Present) - Important
Problem: Root golem attacks a single person in the room with either entangle or very minor damage+bleeding (160-320 damage, 10-20 bleeding) every 12 seconds. It can be used in natural forests (including trees, garden, and presumably woods), valleys, mountains, hills, and farmlands. It lasts 3 minutes. The problem here is mostly that by stepping a single room away, the 5p investment and trance tense slot becomes useless when the golem is already very limited and unreliable.
Solution: Allow ORDER GOLEM MOVE to move the golem around. It should be able to march over any terrain except 'natural' taint, urban/road, or any true water terrain.
Solution: Increase the damage/bleeding on the golem's other attack, it's pathetic.
Solution: Speed the golem up slightly, I suggest ~10. This isn't much for each single hit, but it makes the entangle come statistically every 20 seconds instead of 24 seconds.
Lightning - Important
Problem: Lightning is a powerful (~2k damage for me with damage buff tattoo) 1p attack that is on a 5 second equilibrium time (that's with +1eq speed) . It requires high temperatures and high precipitation, which is pretty limited, and can only be used from inside the druid's demesne to another point in the druid's demesne. Why that part is bad is a long explanation that won't fit here well.
Solution: Allow lightning at either hot or cold temperatures.
Solution: Allow lightning to be cast from inside the properly be-weather-d demesne to any viable outdoor target in the same area, for somewhat reduced damage (~-10%). This drops my dps with it to lower than my cudgel point (if bleeding is factored in). Can be 15% if necessary.
Micro Level Changes - Important
Problem: Micro level weather changes are extremely limited both in degree of change (usually 3-4 factors at most in either direction, or more in one direction only) and in range, being one room only. The degree limit means that micro weather changes are almost never enough to enable or disable effects in a room. Both limits taken together makes all three of these skills essentially cool RP skills. The problem comes in the hefty power price tag on these abilities. This is marked as important as these skills currently occupy no real niche.
Solution: Make all micro level changes free. This doesn't really change anything in combat, as you can't change weather in a demesne that is not yours, and it's non-feasible to change the weather effectively one room at a time.
Solution: Combine all three micro changes into one ability, placed where MicroTemp is now. In their place, put somethings like the powerup to Forecast, or the powerup to Weatherguard.
Bloom (Present) - Important
Problem: Bloom currently does dizzyness and confusion for 1p on a normal balance timer, with the vapors affliction thrown in if the trance is in the present 'tense'. Because these two (or three) afflictions are cured on different balances and are absolutely predictable, curing them is trivial. Even in sap, only the confusion and vapors have any effect, and are still easily cured while the sapped person is waiting for their writhes to complete. Making the afflicting a little less predictable and including some better affs (Than dizzy) fixes it. Not certain on the list for this, taking advice. I threw in some powerful ones, as this is really the Shaman's main method of affliction. Solutions 2/3 not really intended to be implemented together.
Solution: Have bloom give two of: Addiction, Confusion, Dementia, Stupidity, Dizzy. This has some good affs, but it also has some bum affs that lessen the impact.
Solution: When in present tense, have bloom have a chance (33-50%) to do a third aff, and expand the aff list with epilepsy and daydreaming.
Solution: When in the present tense, have the vapors hit before the rest, so that there is no real thirdperson message.
Root (Present) - Important
Problem: Root golem attacks a single person in the room with either entangle or very minor damage+bleeding (160-320 damage, 10-20 bleeding) every 12 seconds. It can be used in natural forests (including trees, garden, and presumably woods), valleys, mountains, hills, and farmlands. It lasts 3 minutes. The problem here is mostly that by stepping a single room away, the 5p investment and trance tense slot becomes useless when the golem is already very limited and unreliable.
Solution: Allow ORDER GOLEM MOVE
Solution: Increase the damage/bleeding on the golem's other attack, it's pathetic.
Solution: Speed the golem up slightly, I suggest ~10. This isn't much for each single hit, but it makes the entangle come statistically every 20 seconds instead of 24 seconds.
Lightning - Important
Problem: Lightning is a powerful (~2k damage for me with damage buff tattoo) 1p attack that is on a 5 second equilibrium time (that's with +1eq speed) . It requires high temperatures and high precipitation, which is pretty limited, and can only be used from inside the druid's demesne to another point in the druid's demesne. Why that part is bad is a long explanation that won't fit here well.
Solution: Allow lightning at either hot or cold temperatures.
Solution: Allow lightning to be cast from inside the properly be-weather-d demesne to any viable outdoor target in the same area, for somewhat reduced damage (~-10%). This drops my dps with it to lower than my cudgel point (if bleeding is factored in). Can be 15% if necessary.
Micro Level Changes - Important
Problem: Micro level weather changes are extremely limited both in degree of change (usually 3-4 factors at most in either direction, or more in one direction only) and in range, being one room only. The degree limit means that micro weather changes are almost never enough to enable or disable effects in a room. Both limits taken together makes all three of these skills essentially cool RP skills. The problem comes in the hefty power price tag on these abilities. This is marked as important as these skills currently occupy no real niche.
Solution: Make all micro level changes free. This doesn't really change anything in combat, as you can't change weather in a demesne that is not yours, and it's non-feasible to change the weather effectively one room at a time.
Solution: Combine all three micro changes into one ability, placed where MicroTemp is now. In their place, put somethings like the powerup to Forecast, or the powerup to Weatherguard.
Veyrzhul2012-06-09 22:34:26
Like Shamarah, I have my doubts about some of the suggestions here, without knowing the skillset well, myself. It seems to me as if you want to get a number of reliable passives and on top active affliction skills that cause 2-3 good affs. That's a bit much, if you ask me. Take runes as a comparison and guideline, I'd say. There you get one passive and 2 affs for one power or 1 aff for no power.
Regarding Bloom, I have to say it looks pretty powerful as is: Dizziness is not a junk affliction, and certainly not once you're sapped. Saying that afflictions are easily cured in sap while the victim is writhing off is a strange argument if you add in passives and possibly actives due to longer writhetimes from allergies.
Regarding Bloom, I have to say it looks pretty powerful as is: Dizziness is not a junk affliction, and certainly not once you're sapped. Saying that afflictions are easily cured in sap while the victim is writhing off is a strange argument if you add in passives and possibly actives due to longer writhetimes from allergies.
Xenthos2012-06-10 00:03:29
I'm really not feeling this report.
At all.
The skillset doesn't need a rebuild from the bottom up; can you condense this down into what you (or preferably Druids) feel is an issue with the skillset as a whole and what needs to be done to address it? Going skill-by-skill and just trying to upgrade everything (which when more than 50% of the skills are on the list is not even too much of an overstatement) is a bit excessive.
The report needs to start with the problem(s) (both on the too-powerful and not-too-powerful) end and focus on what needs to be done for those, not an 'everything including the kitchen sink' approach.
At all.
The skillset doesn't need a rebuild from the bottom up; can you condense this down into what you (or preferably Druids) feel is an issue with the skillset as a whole and what needs to be done to address it? Going skill-by-skill and just trying to upgrade everything (which when more than 50% of the skills are on the list is not even too much of an overstatement) is a bit excessive.
The report needs to start with the problem(s) (both on the too-powerful and not-too-powerful) end and focus on what needs to be done for those, not an 'everything including the kitchen sink' approach.
Unknown2012-06-10 04:44:25
Veyrzhul:
Take runes as a comparison and guideline, I'd say.\\
You know that Runes is a particularly subpar tertiary for both mages and druids, right? Not saying that your basic premise (that these suggestions are too much) is wrong, but we shouldn't be balancing around subpar skillsets, especially with the power creep of the newer classes.
That said, I'm not sure that every change marked Important is so. A lot of these seem more like convenience changes than anything else.
Some comments:
Land- Land is already very powerful, if limited. I'm not sure if it should be buffed without also taking a nerf.
Death Trance - This should be a priority.
Fierceweather - Another priority.
Snowman- Making the snowman targetable is fine, not sure if the other suggestions are necessary.
Freeze - I'd prefer the hidden freeze to a double freeze.
Sky (Present) - It might be more advantageous to give the levitation stripping ability to one of your demesne effects, possibly Roots.
Frogs- Passive seems fair, as long as the effects are not shrouded.
Quicksand - Seems like a fair nerf.
Bloom - Bloom as it stands seems kinda lackluster (Dizziness is NOT a good aff), but these suggestions seem kinda OP.
Root - Not sure if the golem needs a speed buff, but a damage buff might be welcome, in addition to movement.
Lightning - Wouldn't those changes allow a team of Druid to zapcannon a target with a much more powerful version of zap? I recommend simply speeding it up, to give the druid what amounts to a power attack.
Microchanges - Not sure if they need to be consolidated, but they should be free.
The rest don't feel are particularly important. Probably not enough to qualify for a special report.
Unknown2012-06-10 05:11:44
What? Runes is not sub-par. Mages just have a better option (TK).
Daganev2012-06-10 07:44:59
What? Runes is not sub-par. Mages just have a better option (TK).
So, TK is par, because that's what most use, and Runes are worse than TK... so Runes are sub par? :P
Veyrzhul2012-06-10 08:14:37
Runes are not a bad skillset, especially not for druids. However, a mage with Runes will have trouble scoring kills alone, that part is a lot easier with Tk. In any case, I think Runes can serve as a gauge for how many passive and active afflictions per attack other druid tertiaries should be dishing out, perhaps allowing for some leeway since Runes offers to directly choose from a number of afflictions that are useful to maintain sap. Especially the amount of passives per demesne tick that can be kept up at a time should be watched closely.
It might not be a bad idea to review the most recent sap changes together with Shamanism.
It might not be a bad idea to review the most recent sap changes together with Shamanism.
Unknown2012-06-10 11:04:20
Indeed. I agree. Much rather than downplaying runes, which in my opinion can be more than viable, certain when given the right setting, application and user, one should be looking at the bigger picture.
I am mostly against the proposals set out here.
Not at all. It's just common knowledge that TK is far superior, heh.
As for specific proposals, I will attempt to offer feedback on most:
WIND: Seems fair.
LIMITS: Problem seems confined to user error to me and is also a downside to what can be a nice ability.
LAND: Just no. Land is fine as it is. These restrictions are in place for a very good reason and well in line with other terrain restrictions.
WEATHERGUARD: Seems fair.
DEATHTRANCE: Was your recent report not sufficient to address this? I would like further feedback on this if possible, please.
FIERCEWEATHER: Agreed. 10 seconds, bringing it in line with most passives of a similar nature.
SNOWMAN: Solution 1 only. When other abilities, both passive and active are taken into account, anything more than this will be problematic, in my opinion.
FREEZE: Absolutely no to double freeze. Even a hidden freeze might be too much here, but I find myself not overly worried at this. Would need testing.
SKY: Whilst at first glance appears as a nerf, turning this into a single targeted effect makes this considerably more useful. No.
FROGS: Yes. Approve of this. Seems fair provided the affliction is visible.
QUICKSAND: Fair solution presented.
BLOOM: Dizziness seems to be downplayed here. The presented affliction changes seem far too powerful.
ROOT: Am fine with the proposed changes here. Seems a prudent move, although I would seek further evidence of the damage dealt by this effect.
LIGHTNING: Absolutely no.
MICROCHANGES: Whilst I find myself in agreement that -some- change might be warranted, I feel the solutions presented in no way address the issue.
I am mostly against the proposals set out here.
daganev:
So, TK is par, because that's what most use, and Runes are worse than TK... so Runes are sub par? :P
Not at all. It's just common knowledge that TK is far superior, heh.
As for specific proposals, I will attempt to offer feedback on most:
WIND: Seems fair.
LIMITS: Problem seems confined to user error to me and is also a downside to what can be a nice ability.
LAND: Just no. Land is fine as it is. These restrictions are in place for a very good reason and well in line with other terrain restrictions.
WEATHERGUARD: Seems fair.
DEATHTRANCE: Was your recent report not sufficient to address this? I would like further feedback on this if possible, please.
FIERCEWEATHER: Agreed. 10 seconds, bringing it in line with most passives of a similar nature.
SNOWMAN: Solution 1 only. When other abilities, both passive and active are taken into account, anything more than this will be problematic, in my opinion.
FREEZE: Absolutely no to double freeze. Even a hidden freeze might be too much here, but I find myself not overly worried at this. Would need testing.
SKY: Whilst at first glance appears as a nerf, turning this into a single targeted effect makes this considerably more useful. No.
FROGS: Yes. Approve of this. Seems fair provided the affliction is visible.
QUICKSAND: Fair solution presented.
BLOOM: Dizziness seems to be downplayed here. The presented affliction changes seem far too powerful.
ROOT: Am fine with the proposed changes here. Seems a prudent move, although I would seek further evidence of the damage dealt by this effect.
LIGHTNING: Absolutely no.
MICROCHANGES: Whilst I find myself in agreement that -some- change might be warranted, I feel the solutions presented in no way address the issue.
Sylphas2012-06-11 03:50:27
Draylor:
Not at all. It's just common knowledge that TK is far superior, heh.
If you want all tertiaries to share the same usefulness, which seems to be what you're suggesting, either we should take TK as the baseline and bring the others up, or nerf TK. You can't have it both ways unless you're totally ok with being internally inconsistent in your logic.
Sidd2012-06-11 04:57:05
I would argue that even before the recent changes to druidry, shamanism was better than runes overall as it is now. With the changes, it's become even better.
Allergies need toned down, period, before I can take any suggestion in this report even close to seriously. Sap given balance loss on affliction was entirely unneeded and makes it ridiculously powerful in 1v1, in groups and in ganking situations. Yeah groups can point cleanse(which is now pretty necessary in groups), but isolation makes it tough to let people know.
Root golem could use the ability to be ordered to move around, but its affliction rate is fine especially given that it causes passive entangles which in conjuction with allergies, is incredibly powerful, I feel once every 24 seconds is just dandy.
Fierceweather could stand to be toned down a bit, and even then, with snowman (especially with the targetting change, which is reasonable) and coldweather effects, I don't think freeze needs any adjusting. Druids are perfectly capable of getting someone to frozen without much effort (BT's better than HS obviously, but I don't see HS struggling at all with it).
the only adjustment I can see to land is including swamps in it's terrain choices, but I think it should come with a power increase, making it 7-8p per use. It's seriously reality on steroids, like stronger than reality by a huge factor given it's enemy only. Deserts and Beaches no because having roots come out of the ground and pull you into another room is just not thematically appropriate.
Bloom is nice as is. I don't believe any changes are necessary, Sky is a bit lackluster in the future dept but present is also fine. I don't think levitation stripping is needed, at all. You don't need concussion on top of sap(which has been HUGELY buffed)., and you have plenty of ways to break bones.
I still notice there was nothing addressing claws, both the claws attack and sheatheclaw are really really powerful. Something that's been complained a lot about, something Enyalida has said she would address before, yet it's being left off the special report.
Allergies need toned down, period, before I can take any suggestion in this report even close to seriously. Sap given balance loss on affliction was entirely unneeded and makes it ridiculously powerful in 1v1, in groups and in ganking situations. Yeah groups can point cleanse(which is now pretty necessary in groups), but isolation makes it tough to let people know.
Root golem could use the ability to be ordered to move around, but its affliction rate is fine especially given that it causes passive entangles which in conjuction with allergies, is incredibly powerful, I feel once every 24 seconds is just dandy.
Fierceweather could stand to be toned down a bit, and even then, with snowman (especially with the targetting change, which is reasonable) and coldweather effects, I don't think freeze needs any adjusting. Druids are perfectly capable of getting someone to frozen without much effort (BT's better than HS obviously, but I don't see HS struggling at all with it).
the only adjustment I can see to land is including swamps in it's terrain choices, but I think it should come with a power increase, making it 7-8p per use. It's seriously reality on steroids, like stronger than reality by a huge factor given it's enemy only. Deserts and Beaches no because having roots come out of the ground and pull you into another room is just not thematically appropriate.
Bloom is nice as is. I don't believe any changes are necessary, Sky is a bit lackluster in the future dept but present is also fine. I don't think levitation stripping is needed, at all. You don't need concussion on top of sap(which has been HUGELY buffed)., and you have plenty of ways to break bones.
I still notice there was nothing addressing claws, both the claws attack and sheatheclaw are really really powerful. Something that's been complained a lot about, something Enyalida has said she would address before, yet it's being left off the special report.
Veyrzhul2012-06-11 05:16:29
Sylphas:
If you want all tertiaries to share the same usefulness, which seems to be what you're suggesting, either we should take TK as the baseline and bring the others up, or nerf TK. You can't have it both ways unless you're totally ok with being internally inconsistent in your logic.
The usefulness of tertiaries always has to be considered in the context of the other skillsets available to the guilds. Mages don't have sap. Druids with runes or dreamweaving are certainly not underpowered, so there is no need to have Shamanism stand out among the tertiaries as far as passives and saplocking ability goes.
Unknown2012-06-11 05:35:50
Wind changes - fine
Change limits - fine
Land - swamps is fine only. No to indoors or anything else.
Death trance - I doubt the admin will roll back the changes, so you shouldn't approach the issue from that direction. Why not just lower the the time gap when it's inactive from 10s down to something like 5?
Weatherguard - not necessary. Why not learn weathersight?
Fierceweather - Don't think it's that bad, but no objections either. 8-10 is fair.
Snowman - ordering to attack someone specific is all it needs, nothing else.
Freeze - Not really necessary, but I have no objections to lowering the eq for freeze. That's all though, none of the solutions appeal to me.
Sky - Not necessary, it's fine, there are uses for room fling, especially in groups
Frogs - Sounds good, solution 1.
Quicksand - Sounds good
Bloom - Not necessary, bloom is fine. This seems to be something you pair with sap.
Root - Ordering the golem to move around is fine, nothing else is needed.
Lightning - The solutions aren't good. I'd rather just remove the meld limitation. Just have it require the right weather conditions.
Micro - Fine with me.
Overall, I'm wondering what happened to the claw report? You've expressed that they need toning down for months, but now that one is conspicuously absent. Is it fine now?
Also, a lot of the suggestions don't seem to have taken the new allergies mechanic in mind, so I agree with Sidd there. Perhaps you should re-evaluate with allergies in mind as well.
I also get the distinct feeling that a majority of this report is all buffs, but IMO, Shamanism only needs a few adjustments instead of a complete upgrade.
Change limits - fine
Land - swamps is fine only. No to indoors or anything else.
Death trance - I doubt the admin will roll back the changes, so you shouldn't approach the issue from that direction. Why not just lower the the time gap when it's inactive from 10s down to something like 5?
Weatherguard - not necessary. Why not learn weathersight?
Fierceweather - Don't think it's that bad, but no objections either. 8-10 is fair.
Snowman - ordering to attack someone specific is all it needs, nothing else.
Freeze - Not really necessary, but I have no objections to lowering the eq for freeze. That's all though, none of the solutions appeal to me.
Sky - Not necessary, it's fine, there are uses for room fling, especially in groups
Frogs - Sounds good, solution 1.
Quicksand - Sounds good
Bloom - Not necessary, bloom is fine. This seems to be something you pair with sap.
Root - Ordering the golem to move around is fine, nothing else is needed.
Lightning - The solutions aren't good. I'd rather just remove the meld limitation. Just have it require the right weather conditions.
Micro - Fine with me.
Overall, I'm wondering what happened to the claw report? You've expressed that they need toning down for months, but now that one is conspicuously absent. Is it fine now?
Also, a lot of the suggestions don't seem to have taken the new allergies mechanic in mind, so I agree with Sidd there. Perhaps you should re-evaluate with allergies in mind as well.
I also get the distinct feeling that a majority of this report is all buffs, but IMO, Shamanism only needs a few adjustments instead of a complete upgrade.
