Xenthos2012-07-26 22:53:34
The Cavalier special report is open. I'm going to put up a couple of initial thoughts.
1) Pincharge.
Steed Pincharge is somewhat broken. Currently, you can pincharge a target, and keep trying to leave the room. It will fail due to you having the target pinned. Thus, once it works, you can just pincharge again. At 2p per charge, in a group fight this can keep one (I've managed to do it up to three on a full power charge) target locked down until death. While there are ways to stop it (walls, for example), it can use a bit of tweaking.
Option 1: Require beast balance before you can pincharge. This way if walls are raised, you can't charge in that direction and then pincharge back.
Option 2: Some sort of a cooldown timer on pincharge to keep it from being used back-to-back (such as requiring and consuming beast balance).
2) Heft.
Heft has a couple of problems that render it rather less useful than hoped.
Heft must be used on your target prior to an attack in order to take advantage of it.
Heft consumes a short amount of balance (~.78 seconds for Faeling&Aslaran, ~1 second for others), and lasts a short bit longer (3 seconds total for heft duration, so a window of approximately 2 seconds average to take advantage of it).
If, during that time, the target shields or rebounding comes up, you need to raze; razing takes another ~.9 seconds for Faeling&Aslaran / ~1.2 seconds for others.
This leaves most Cavaliers with about 0.8 seconds in which to 1) Get the raze command in, and 2) Get the second attack in. It's fairly tight, and if you miss the heft window you've just missed out on pressing your offense.
Beyond that, the advantages to heft are (for jabs) +25% wounding or (for swings) the possibility of hitting two limbs at once*.
* Note: If you hit two limbs at once, on top of the heft time, you are also given the balance loss for both swings (so you can be given an additional 7 second balance loss, for example); if one of the hits is parried or misses, then you are still given the "miss" balance loss.
All of this leads to Heft being a very interesting mechanic but difficult to use to much actual effect.
Some ideas:
i) Make a hefted raze do something; for example, if it destroyed 1 protective barrier and gave a small bit of wounding all over the body due to the force of the blow, it would allow the Cavalier to keep up the pressure even if they lose the heft.
ii) More ideas are welcome; I'd kind of prefer more than just "make heft last longer" especially as if heft lasted longer, it might allow a person to do multiple hits on one heft.
3) Cavalier needs some more hindering, especially if Pincharge is getting weakened (Ushaara has some ideas on this).
I will also likely be back with more, I'm just starting off with a couple of things here to get it started.
1) Pincharge.
Steed Pincharge is somewhat broken. Currently, you can pincharge a target, and keep trying to leave the room. It will fail due to you having the target pinned. Thus, once it works, you can just pincharge again. At 2p per charge, in a group fight this can keep one (I've managed to do it up to three on a full power charge) target locked down until death. While there are ways to stop it (walls, for example), it can use a bit of tweaking.
Option 1: Require beast balance before you can pincharge. This way if walls are raised, you can't charge in that direction and then pincharge back.
Option 2: Some sort of a cooldown timer on pincharge to keep it from being used back-to-back (such as requiring and consuming beast balance).
2) Heft.
Heft has a couple of problems that render it rather less useful than hoped.
Heft must be used on your target prior to an attack in order to take advantage of it.
Heft consumes a short amount of balance (~.78 seconds for Faeling&Aslaran, ~1 second for others), and lasts a short bit longer (3 seconds total for heft duration, so a window of approximately 2 seconds average to take advantage of it).
If, during that time, the target shields or rebounding comes up, you need to raze; razing takes another ~.9 seconds for Faeling&Aslaran / ~1.2 seconds for others.
This leaves most Cavaliers with about 0.8 seconds in which to 1) Get the raze command in, and 2) Get the second attack in. It's fairly tight, and if you miss the heft window you've just missed out on pressing your offense.
Beyond that, the advantages to heft are (for jabs) +25% wounding or (for swings) the possibility of hitting two limbs at once*.
* Note: If you hit two limbs at once, on top of the heft time, you are also given the balance loss for both swings (so you can be given an additional 7 second balance loss, for example); if one of the hits is parried or misses, then you are still given the "miss" balance loss.
All of this leads to Heft being a very interesting mechanic but difficult to use to much actual effect.
Some ideas:
i) Make a hefted raze do something; for example, if it destroyed 1 protective barrier and gave a small bit of wounding all over the body due to the force of the blow, it would allow the Cavalier to keep up the pressure even if they lose the heft.
ii) More ideas are welcome; I'd kind of prefer more than just "make heft last longer" especially as if heft lasted longer, it might allow a person to do multiple hits on one heft.
3) Cavalier needs some more hindering, especially if Pincharge is getting weakened (Ushaara has some ideas on this).
I will also likely be back with more, I'm just starting off with a couple of things here to get it started.
Ushaara2012-07-26 22:59:31
* Note: If you hit two limbs at once, on top of the heft time, you are also given the balance loss for both swings (so you can be given an additional 7 second balance loss, for example); if one of the hits is parried or misses, then you are still given the 'miss' balance loss.
I'm still thinking this is a bug. It certainly wasn't like that on release and makes hefted swings unuseable at the minute. Still waiting to hear back on bug report (Bug #4276 for any friendly neighbourhood admin who cares to look.)
Edit2: Woo, and fixed before I even edited to include bug number! <3
Anyhoo, give me a bit to root out some older posts I made.
Edit: Okies, here are two 'first impression' posts from release time. Think I'd stand by most of it still.
Yes, it's only been a couple of days since its release, and lots more sparring/testing needed, but am curious as to how others are finding the spec. My first impressions below.
Initial thinking on jab affs:
- Addition of rend or rend-like equivalent on Impale. Need to test if JaggedWound could be used effectively toward bleedspam (initial impression is not enough), but I think rend on Impale would be good help here.
- Case to be made for PierceArm/SeverNerve instead of SliceBicep, and PierceLeg to help with sticking the KnockDown swing. Would add these at light/medium arm/leg.
- Addition of critical jab on chest and/or gut, should be regen cure to help Skewer viability.
I think that would leave jabs pretty nicely.
Initial thinking on swing affs:
- FractureSkull to Medium like BC, help with low wound hindering/building.
- Would like to add CrushWindpipe at heavy for potential to greenlock, with Heft making up for the two poison requirement to secure it. Iosai indicated new strategies needed to be thought up for Cavalier though, so may be while yet before this would be considered.
- Both chest and gut need a lower wound level swing. SeverSpine and CrushChest both crit swing requirements for Skewer, but currently an all or nothing result. SeverSpine is also the spec's only regen cure prone which is usually route to building wounds. Tested a 20 str, max precision (excepting drawdown/nightkiss/racial precision buff), puissant hefted sunder vs 50 blunt robes (8p), result was massive wounding yes (~3200 wounds), but no affliction for all that wounding/power.
BashBrain/Skewer viability:
- BashBrain seems fine.
- Skewer I think needs one of CrushChest/SeverSpine lowered to heavy. SeverSpine would be preferable obviously, but CrushChest more likely, since it's already at heavy for BC as is. Regen salve stack for Disembowel works for PB as it has lots of regen cures at heavy wounding, with amputates forcing double regens. Would say Tahtetso insta also has easier time of landing regen affs. Keeping three bodyparts at crit long enough to keep a regen salve stack going I think makes Skewer unlikely, especially with CrushChest and SeverSpine allheale'able and no way for a Cavalier to lock up curing. Adding regen cure crit jab on chest/gut and another heavy regen swing could help.
The good to too good?:
- Joust. It's just fun!
- Guard. Chance for passive hit always nice, even if small.
- Heft. Strike+ and chance to hit two bodyparts on swing also nice. Swings are top heavy aff-wise so not seeing that many extra affs, but the potential of building on two bodyparts at once is very helpful.
- Obstruct. May need a small power cost to justify.effectiveness. Can see it being great in groups and for certain tertiaries.
The bad?:
- BreakArm/Leg, rawr! My least favourite warrior affs, though at least they're at light wounds.
- No means to lock/hinder curing.
- No tendonspam, sob sob. :(
- No 'Jab or Swing' affs which is kinda weird.
Extra Wishlist:
- CrushLeg to sprawl on hit.
- DislocateArm/Leg instead of BreakArm/Leg &lt;- personally, would take this for no CrushWindpipe!
Big rave to admin for the spec though! Have wanted a polearm spec since forever! :)
And the follow up to first impression:
After bit more playing with them I'd say my priorities report wise would be to cover the gap in mid-range chest & gut swings, move FractureSkull to Medium head, see addition of Rend-like equivalent, and push for a hefted smash to have chance to hit both legs before reviewing the Windpipe/Skewer suggestions (would still maintain something needed there though).
For chest swing: OpenChest to jab or swing action makes sense to me. If there's restriction on keeping jabs and swings distinct then something like BreakChest/SnapRib could be a goer.
For gut swing: I'm seeing Wind at Light/Medium here. Non-impacting cure wise while providing at least some hinder/return to the Cavalier for all the swings at gut/chest area they'll be doing. If other ideas going, sure sure.
FractureSkull to Medium: Making landing this a bit more reliable would help make up a bit for the lack of ability to lock curing.
Rend: Don't have numbers on bleed from rends, initial idea for me was JaggedWound on withdraw but that's probably not all that great. If going for something different, a passive accelerated wound build on gut for duration of impale could maybe work. I'm seeing it as Cavalier jiggling the handle around while person is impaled.
Hefted Smash chance to hit both legs: I'd push for this if CrushLeg sprawling is off the table. Current implementation means you're either standing with mangle, or sprawled with no mangle, neither of which are states a Cavalier can really capitalise on since stand can go through before balance returns for Cavalier, as well as KnockDown being swing only.
These suggestions would make it one new aff, added feature on impale and hidden backroom changes and I would see as all pretty reasonable.
Steed Changes: Faster whistling of steed and powered re-summon on steed death are both things that are needed I think. Please don't make more the spec more expensive and make Beastmaster's Whistle/Spurs/beastpet with phoenix requirements too! :(
What was changed:
FractureSkull was already changed to Medium.
Rend was added for Impales.
Skewers were made more viable with the only one of the affs needed part and were viable before the hefted swing bug made them impossible again.
For Special Report:
I already finalised this month's report (#892) for the addition of Wind/BreakChest to improve hindering aspect of the spec and cover the gap in mid-range swing afflictions on chest/gut, but may as well include it here too. I think this would make Hefting more useful as a byproduct, so personally, would wait to see how this works out before changing Hefts further. Though Xenthos' baby of Hefted Razes/Cleaving still up for discussion.
Have another draft up to cover the CrushLeg/HeftedSmash problem (#899). For those who can't see:
Report #899 Skillset: Cavalier Skill: HeftedSmash/CrushLeg
Guild: Sentinels Status: Draft
Problem: For a Cavalier to stick a KnockDown, they must land the KnockDown with
CrushLeg. However, being a two-handed specialisation, this combination is not
viable for a Cavalier as it is for Bonecrushers who can land both afflictions in
the same combo. Hefted swings allow the Cavalier to hit two bodyparts, however
hefted smashes which prioritise legs have the following progressions, Leg -> Gut, or Gut -> Chest. Both of these progressions are available already with an
upward hefted smite, using smash just allows some control over what leg is hit
in the progression. Hefted Smashes that would have a Leg -> Other Leg, with Gut -> Leg as its secondary progression would be more desirable and make the
KnockDown/CrushLeg combo a viable strategy for Cavaliers.
Solution #1: Change Hefted Smashes to provide the Cavalier with a chance to hit
both legs, with Gut -> Leg as its secondary progression.
Solution #2: Make CrushLeg itself sprawl when delivered by a Cavalier.
Solution #3: Provide a solution here.
Player Comments:
---:
I think #1 would result with better wounding on legs but with less reliability
of the KnockDown/CrushLeg combo given the Hefted requirement for a 50% chance to
hit both legs, and the subsequent standard affliction roll on both bodyparts. #2
would be the opposite, better reliability of the combo given only one limb needs
to be hit, with the disadvantage of less overall wounding.
JaggedWound doesn't really contribute much to a bleed strategy in one on one and even in group there are better things to be doing, so it's rated as a pretty weak affliction for me. Then again, all specs have weak affs so not a huge priority to be changed for me. If admin are feeling generous I'd say making it a yarrow cure would be an improvement.
I agree with Xenthos' ideas on limiting PinCharging.
I think Obstructing hasn't seen the same use in groups since PinCharge is more effective, but it's still very strong, especially for securing things like Inquisition/Phantomspheres, and even more so for warriors with access to carcer like effects, so 1p cost -may- still be warranted.
The PierceArm/Leg suggested changes above would give Cavaliers a bit more of a counter to monks, but the ability list is already pretty full so while would be nice, maybe not so necessary.
Personally, have come around to thinking the spec can do without CrushWindpipe so long as it remains a fast and big wounder.
Really the most controversial change I'd like to see (given the reaction it raised last time it was suggested) would be faster whistling of your steed and the ability to whistle into the trees. A 4s balance to whistle for an attrition class that relies on being mounted to give worthwhile afflictions and who face a wounding/damage malus when not mounted is a lot, especially given how common forced movement is in combat. The 'just go back and remount' counter-argument often isn't possible, and I think if ent classes had a 4s balance to recall, similar grievances would be raised.
Hmm, think I've probably crammed enough into this post now.
Iosai2012-07-26 23:23:09
That is definitely a bug.
Ushaara2012-07-27 00:03:27
Update. My post above edited.
Daganev2012-07-27 11:06:51
I would have liked to see heft work in the following way.
You turn on the defense, it takes no balance.
Heft is now active, and all swings take an extra 1.5 second balance time.
If you require speed, you turn off the defense and your swings are now back to normal.
I don't understand why it needs to be a special action that uses up balance with a short window in which to operate it. Heft does not bypass rebounding or shielding or stances or parries, and it only works a % of the time in the first place.
Ushaara, can you edit your original post to remove everything that you no longer think necessary or you now disagree with?
edit: Also even though I know most disagree with me, I will state that I think Beast balance for cavaliers should be made faster by 20%
You turn on the defense, it takes no balance.
Heft is now active, and all swings take an extra 1.5 second balance time.
If you require speed, you turn off the defense and your swings are now back to normal.
I don't understand why it needs to be a special action that uses up balance with a short window in which to operate it. Heft does not bypass rebounding or shielding or stances or parries, and it only works a % of the time in the first place.
Ushaara, can you edit your original post to remove everything that you no longer think necessary or you now disagree with?
edit: Also even though I know most disagree with me, I will state that I think Beast balance for cavaliers should be made faster by 20%
Daganev2012-07-27 12:24:48
What bug was fixed? I still get a 7 second balance loss when I heft and hit twice, and a 3.5 second balance loss when I heft but only 1 hits.
Ushaara2012-07-27 13:36:22
daganev:
Ushaara, can you edit your original post to remove everything that you no longer think necessary or you now disagree with?
From the 'For Special Report' part onward would be the changes I'd put up for discussion. The spoiler'd stuff was included as a reference.
Unknown2012-07-27 23:51:23
I'm still not really convinced that Cavaliers deserve a skill to whistle up into the trees or faster whistling period.
There's already the spurs and beastmaster's whistle to help these supposed difficulties and cavaliers aren't the only class that have trouble fighting people on different elevations. This doesn't even consider the recent envoy report that made keeping mounted easier to track.
In general, I'm just leery of giving almost all cavaliers near perfect immunity to being dismounted. I'm fine if they're willing to spend the credits to do so, but having it built-in to Joe the newbie Cavalier right at the start is pretty offputting.
In fact, comparison to ent classes doesn't really work that well considering that ent classes once had perfect immunity to ugliness via charismaticaura, and that was eventually nerfed, so was wolf (nerf fearaura). trying to give cavaliers the same immunity is pretty meh.
There's already the spurs and beastmaster's whistle to help these supposed difficulties and cavaliers aren't the only class that have trouble fighting people on different elevations. This doesn't even consider the recent envoy report that made keeping mounted easier to track.
In general, I'm just leery of giving almost all cavaliers near perfect immunity to being dismounted. I'm fine if they're willing to spend the credits to do so, but having it built-in to Joe the newbie Cavalier right at the start is pretty offputting.
In fact, comparison to ent classes doesn't really work that well considering that ent classes once had perfect immunity to ugliness via charismaticaura, and that was eventually nerfed, so was wolf (nerf fearaura). trying to give cavaliers the same immunity is pretty meh.
Xenthos2012-07-28 02:34:11
Beastmaster's whistle isn't public (yet), so it's difficult to say "already have that".
Unknown2012-07-28 02:54:24
Yeah. but between you and me, the spurs are way more valuable and more people should buy them.
Xenthos2012-07-28 03:26:03
Sojiro:
Yeah. but between you and me, the spurs are way more valuable and more people should buy them.
I bought them looong before Cavalier. :P
Xenthos2012-07-28 13:00:05
Oh, and I had another issue with the spec.
AB CAVALIER STEED says:
Your polearm abilities will be stronger and more accurate when mounted on your steed, and weaker and less accurate when not mounted at all.
What this translates to is:
You do reduced damage and wounding if not mounted, from "warrior base".
Being mounted on your Steed means you do equal damage and wounding to another warrior spec using a similar weapon, but being dismounted means you do less.
Given that you have to be mounted to get spec afflictions, this seems like it's a bit unnecessary; just equalize the damage and wounding whether mounted or not (if you have to do something, give it +5 offensive DMP when mounted and leave it at that).
AB CAVALIER STEED says:
Your polearm abilities will be stronger and more accurate when mounted on your steed, and weaker and less accurate when not mounted at all.
What this translates to is:
You do reduced damage and wounding if not mounted, from "warrior base".
Being mounted on your Steed means you do equal damage and wounding to another warrior spec using a similar weapon, but being dismounted means you do less.
Given that you have to be mounted to get spec afflictions, this seems like it's a bit unnecessary; just equalize the damage and wounding whether mounted or not (if you have to do something, give it +5 offensive DMP when mounted and leave it at that).
Ushaara2012-07-28 13:50:02
Hmm, I saw ~6% increase in wounding over base/other specs when mounted on steed when I last tested that. Mounted on anything other than your steed was base wounding and dismounted was a ~6% malus.
http://forums.luster...ndpost&p=865672
http://forums.luster...ndpost&p=865672
Xenthos2012-07-28 13:57:05
Ushaara:
Hmm, I saw ~6% increase in wounding over base/other specs when mounted on steed when I last tested that. Mounted on anything other than your steed was base wounding and dismounted was a ~6% malus.
http://forums.luster...ndpost&p=865672
Hm-- last time I tried it, it was the exact same mounted on my steed, though that was a long time ago.
I wonder if my steed wasn't counting as mine for some reason.
Elenwe2012-07-28 16:55:46
I'm honestly still learning to run a Cavalier, but the very first thing I saw is we need some way to protect our mounts. The first two fights I was in as a Cavalier, they went for my mount first, killing it, then went after me, now that I was neutered and unable to use half of my spec... then I had to wait an hour to get my bonded steed back, making me a one shot defender. This experience has already made me decide to get a custom beast with phoenix, so I am at least only out for ten minutes, but still.
An idea I have is give forgers the ability to make barding, which can give the mount armour to help mitigate damage dealt to it, and maybe a passive dodge where the rider takes the hit instead of the beast. This makes it more attractive to go for the rider instead, as they are beating you down while you try and kill a very tanky horse.
An idea I have is give forgers the ability to make barding, which can give the mount armour to help mitigate damage dealt to it, and maybe a passive dodge where the rider takes the hit instead of the beast. This makes it more attractive to go for the rider instead, as they are beating you down while you try and kill a very tanky horse.
Xenthos2012-07-28 17:42:49
Elenwe:
I'm honestly still learning to run a Cavalier, but the very first thing I saw is we need some way to protect our mounts. The first two fights I was in as a Cavalier, they went for my mount first, killing it, then went after me, now that I was neutered and unable to use half of my spec... then I had to wait an hour to get my bonded steed back, making me a one shot defender. This experience has already made me decide to get a custom beast with phoenix, so I am at least only out for ten minutes, but still.
An idea I have is give forgers the ability to make barding, which can give the mount armour to help mitigate damage dealt to it, and maybe a passive dodge where the rider takes the hit instead of the beast. This makes it more attractive to go for the rider instead, as they are beating you down while you try and kill a very tanky horse.
Hm. Not sure how necessary that is.
Did you give your pet the Armour ability? That, plus Tend to Steed, make it really close to invincible. Only thing I could think of would be some protection against critical hits for pets, which could be a forged item.
They're already really tanky with armour though!
Ushaara2012-07-29 13:45:27
Well if Beastmaster's Whistle was more commonly available, it would help. Would probably still grumble somewhat in that it's another cost for an already investment heavy specialization, but at least it'd be a lesser grumble than current one.
Sidd2012-07-29 15:20:10
But you can still whistle from the same plane/continent, so it's not like you really absolutely need the whistle
Ushaara2012-07-29 15:20:39
It speeds it up, no?
Daganev2012-07-29 16:55:01
Sidd:
But you can still whistle from the same plane/continent, so it's not like you really absolutely need the whistle
Except ofcourse if you die and need your mount back....
