Ninja nerfs, ninja buffs, ninja reworks - That is to say, tweaks and changes to the code that create drastic impacts upon the players without any manner of formal or informal notice.

I get so furious about this kind of thing. Even if the change is utterly needed and completely appropriate, in my mind it's almost as though I'm being told, "Heh, they're too stupid to notice the difference anyway," or even, "We don't owe them any kind of explanation, so screw the players."

Now, I realize that this is largely irrational and most likely not the case, but it always appears as a slap in the face to me.

So, foregoing one of my more traditional and long-winded rants/explanations, I'll just throw out these questions:


How do you guys feel about Ninja-changes in general?
How about if the changes are urgent and drastically needed?
How do you feel about this wheel adjustment?
How do you feel when this sort of thing has happened in the past, or other games?

For those of you who heard about the wheel, heard Estarra say that no changes were being made until the end of the month, and then spent your money on credits:

How do you feel about this?

And here I was entering the thread expecting to hear arguments about modifying the Ninjakari :( And what's this about the wheel?

Hmm. A lot of changes like that are bugfixes of one sort or another honestly. There have been a few times where changes were made 'backstage' and there wasn't expected to be any end-user change but there was. Besides that sort of thing, not many 'ninja changes' really come to mind that I was upset about. I've been upset about plenty of upfront decisions I thought were silly or unfair, but that's a different story.

What's up with the wheel?

I have to agree. While the wheel has been a -great- thing and while yes, I do totally agree that it needed toning down, ninja nerfs are not good, at all.

Once again, the people that got to spin early get the good stuff, while those of us who will have to spin later due to lack of funds or because of the arti bug will get the crappy spins full of clover hits and divine favours. Thanks admin!

EDIT: I think the idea was that they hoped nobody would notice the nerf

I thought this was about ninjakari for like five minutes :lol:

Come on guys, I turned 17 bound credits and like 15 curios I was given by Shaddus (so like, 32 credits?) into 26 unbound credits, 120 bound credits, 700 lessons and 200k gold. I know someone who has millions of gold and over a thousand credits and dingbats from like 200 credits. You should not be expecting a return like that to go long without getting nerfed.

Gators gonna gait and all that but you know I'm right!

We were already hit with a wheel nerf before. This is like, the second one? Don't misunderstand, I get why. But comon.. the first time was just insane. This time it's not completely ridiculous, it's just good. Now, what's the point? You're better off trading in your coins and selling the dingbats. Ruining good things is in itself, not a good thing.

Knew from the bat it was odd this was possible. Had moral objections but put them aside in the wake of this really being my chance to get ahead in the game. Made bank for a good while, in the end sufficient for things I wanted, and then stopped because I started to make losses. Sort of glad bad luck prevented me from really running myself into a loss.

First of, I think things like these should be tested before they are put in the game. Players are not stupid. It's economics 101 to see which package is the best investment (the biggest one) and it is so great it returned more credits + additional stuff hence it became something to milk. I'm not sure why this wasn't caught before going live. Does testing not go beyond making sure there are no bugs? Or is it "assumed" players will not exploit?

Secondly, if you give your players things, and take them away without so much of a word (especially after a statement that could be taken as there would be no nerfs until after the month), you hurt your players as well as yourself. Even if whatever you nerf was totally needed. It's much better to pre-nerf and then buff, than the other way around. Again this could all have been prevented with practical testing. Before pushing it live, give yourself an average of coins you'd get from rubbing, and spin them through, and see what it yields. And do that x more times and look at the averages. I hope this was done, and somehow deemed ok, but as it currently stands it seems almost as if not.

Thirdly, things like these encourage players to go and be there at the start, no matter the costs, because they have to do it there and then or suffer. Been the same with the last nerf. I know you can't feasibly compensate those who were not there, and early adopters do take a risk, but it is becoming a thing almost. A playerbase will have far more casual players than hardcore early adopters, and while the latter may have spent a lot on your game already, it is usually the combined force of the former that brings in the bulk of money. Casual players are often less invested and more inclined to drop a game, so I really do think being careful of how things impact them is worthwhile.

Rude to nerf it and not tell us. Rude to let those rewards from the first three days stand and everyone who comes later is getting less. We could all see it was far too good to be true, but the disparity in rewards is most unfortunate.

Zarquan:

Rude to nerf it and not tell us. Rude to let those rewards from the first three days stand and everyone who comes later is getting less. We could all see it was far too good to be true, but the disparity in rewards is most unfortunate.

It happened last time, too. Although it was nerfed down way quicker. Sorta why after the moral dilemma, I went and got the best out of it. Bittersweet though, considering I got out alright, but I feel for those that didn't. At least with what I gained, I can now help others better, so I'll try and do that.

Wait, the wheel got nerfed again?

Man, I bought the second-largest (I think) curio thing for the coins, but never got a chance to use them because I haven't had time to wait in line for 2 hours at a time. :C

To start with, I'm not really sure what's going on. I was out pretty late last night and won't be home until this afternoon, so I can't even check to see how much things have changed code-wise.

I will, firstly, point out no promise was made not to "nerf" the wheel gains. Someone commented that permanent wheel spins seemed like a bad idea, and Estarra replied that she was considering reducing the rub-rate on coin production to 10% or so, as I recall. No promise was made beyond that - I can appreciate some would take that to one extreme and assume that means no changes at all, however I think anyone who held on to that belief while watching a half-dozen players gain toruses, omnitrans and RL weeks of crits and true favours for either a small credit loss (<100) or a credit gain (in the hundreds) needs to step back and realize how completely irrational that is. To quote my grandmother, "Wishful thinking, cookie! Go ahead and wish in one hand, ..." - I'm sure you know where that one is going.

Lusternia has long been one of the most giving games - each year we give out nine seal artifacts that function as cubixes and circlets, we give dingbats in the Czigany Wayfaire once or twice a year, and it's not unheard of for big rewards to be given out a couple times a year via events - I'm thinking of the toy event, for example, where every rogue toy got you a db, helping achieve certain tasks got a massive 500db reward, the holiday events with db rewards (Dolly, leprechauns), monthly promos that function as a bubblix (Sorry its such a week bubble ATM though), and one of the best wheels (even still) in all the IRE games. Stocking rewards are better than other games, I'm told, and Estarra is always very obliging when it comes to being a day or two off a sale and giving the discount or promo item(s). I haven't even mentioned the cubix-esque epic quest items.

In spite of all that, I think anyone upset the wheel was nerfed despite a perceived, not stated nor even intended, promise not to nerf the irresponsible gains from the wheel really needs to step back for a second and reconsider the situation. Very little - or nothing - was spent for massive gains. The kind of massive gains that include doubling the number of toruses in the game, one of the most expensive artifacts we have. The economy is in utter shambles - where millions of gold was once unattainable without weeks upon weeks of grinding or selling 150-200 credits, it's now what you'ld pay for 30-40 credits. If you get a good deal. To borrow a term, the rich have gotten richer (I believe the term my friend uses is "sickeningly wealthy"), and the poor have gotten infinitely poorer. Being unable to afford to "gamble" (with massive wins and little loss) means everyone else gets miles and miles ahead, while you're left in the dust. Those are the ones I feel the worst for - the people who couldn't afford to spin, and now have to deal with that economy until it levels back out.

As to why there was no announce post - I don't know. The people I saw briefly this morning didn't either. I will say we've always been very obliging, I think, with these kinds of changes - we always try to make you aware, give extra time, etc as necessary. Especially when credits are involved, Estarra tries very, very hard to make sure you guys get the best metaphorical bang for your buck, and fie on anyone who claims otherwise.

When I get home this afternoon I'll do my best to find out what's going on for you guys, but realize some of us are still on vacation and what have you from the IRE Meet (which would help explain why, if the change was deliberate, it was so slow to come).

I am very sorry you're upset, though. I hope those of you who decided to collect the actual curios, in lieu of (or alongside) rubbing them, enjoy them - I think they're pretty nifty, and worthwhile in their own right, especially at the discounted price.

I'll just post the latest announce here:

After I came back from DC (I spent a few extra days there), I had several messages and emails about concerns regarding the Wheel, so I decided to code a way to track the payouts to see exactly what people were winning. While I was coding this tracking system, I did do some small tweaks to wheel rewards (mostly rounding numbers). I thought these tweaks were so inconsequential that they weren't worth posting about. Indeed, I felt they were so slight that I didn't even tell any other admin or coders.

But some intrepid players have apparently noticed and complained about a 'ninja nerf'. To those and any who felt that this should have been announced, I apologize. It was not my intent to sneak something in. I honestly felt these tweaks were so small it wouldn't be noticed and, really, my tracker indicates that the rewards are amazing.

They are so amazing, in fact, that after the artifact sale, rubbing coins will change so you only will receive a coin only 10% of the time (rather than 50%).

I'll copy my Facebook post here:

Estarra, while I was watching, the values (rewards) have definitely gone down. In particular, presents appear to be much less common than they were. Great runes of tobacco appear now (they did not before). Presents were the main things that made the Wheel 'break even' (or go ahead) over a large number of spins; the chance to pull a flower pot / paintbrush, though very minor, was there and over 400+ spins you had a good chance at getting at least one of them which would help catch you up.

A lower chance at presents = lower return rate, and is pretty easy to notice.

That said, it looks much more balanced now, and there's not a huge line standing at the Wheel because it's no longer close-to-guaranteed returns. Despite some of the posts here, being able to get dingbats / gold / etc. from your package is still a good trade, but you really shouldn't be able to get all that stuff and not actually spend any (or many) credits to do so.

It was too good to be true, and it was screwing with a lot of players' heads, including my own. :(

Can I also please get confirmation that the rub rate hasn't been changed? I have a plan and I'll be quite upset, demanding refunds and whatnot, if I end up getting 10 coins instead of the normal. :/

Confirmation was just given on Facebook, rub rate hasn't changed and won't until the promo ends.

Oh thanks. :)

Honestly, just announcing that nerfs/changes were made would go a long way. I personally don't care if nerfs/changes to the Wheel were made, but I do want to be notified that they happened.

I'm sorry but I simply can't agree with Estarras latest announcement regarding people turning in coins for dingbats. This was not an intended function of them, people doing it would have likely been aware but rather than report it, they have apparently been profiting off it - I would say it is a gamble but considering the low chance of getting an artifact or higher number of dingbats, it is a relatively 'safe' gamble.

Now rather than doing the 'right' thing and revoking the ill-gotten dingbats and/or punishing those responsible, we have been told everyone who can afford to fork out the credits has a chance to profit too, throwing an already unstable economy even further out

This is purely personal opinion obviously, my opinion won't necessarily reflect that of everyone's as a whole.

Eh, the problem is that a roll-back like that is really hard to do without messing up a lot of other stuff.

Luckily, the coins are turning into sticky dingbats, which can't be turned into gold at all, and can't be used to buy more coins, so it's not that big a deal and doesn't effect the economy at all.