Saran2012-08-02 11:36:15
I've been thinking this for a while and I might be alone but I'm kinda growing steadily more unimpressed with lusternian guilds. I'm not talking about rp, population, or skills just the very basic setup.
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Things I dislike
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They're all the exactly same. This is probably exacerbated by the standardised titles in contrast to the other games where it seems that their actual title i.e "The Temporal Primus" appears wherever you see "Guildmaster" here. The "currently in the realm" section takes care of ensuring that the interested can find the right people to contact, so I'm not sure why this difference exists.
Semi-related is the inflexibility of the positions, right now I tend to prefer having a "novice helper type" so I want them to appear on cgwho, have the ability to advance novices, and maybe to be able to write to the logs rather than messaging me so everyone can see that the novice has been assisted. This would require getting them made a secretary and professor.
There could be more support for multiple communication channels, perhaps this is more linked to later points so lets get to them.
Org helps in general are a little.... awkward, in the past I know that trimming efforts have been made which eventually required dumping files into books and the hs index probably only represents half of the helps that exist for the guild (some are not there for specific reasons though)
The assignment of privs to rank is... lacking in incentives. I'm not sure how universal it is, but it feels like there is a focus on getting to rank 3 (ability to vote/contest) beyond that the incentives drop off, favouring for any sort of structured advancements falls to guild leaders for consistency cause depending on someone to be the right rank to give a lower favour seems infeasible. Giving GTS to everyone at rank 5 seems to enhance a feeling that the big focus is in the early ranks and the only person who I've seen rise to double digits in guild rank without going through gl is Astrasia who's been hartstone for ever.
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Things I want to see
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One, use the custom titles. It seems like it should be simple enough, if clarity is a concern then put the common title in parentheses.
Two, way more complicated but allow the customisation of all the positions other than master, admin, champion, envoy, and patron. Of course this would allow the current positions to remain intact for guilds that it works for, but over time guilds could slowly push out in their own directions if they wanted to.
Three A, Add customisable index to orghelps, this allows us to greet people with a nice file directing people where to go rather than a text dump of all files in that org.
Three B, Folders... oh gods, folders in midkemia look awesome especially given they appear to also be customisable with permissions. The ability to have a folder for novice helpers, and another one for the leadership, and one for just general advancement stuff, it would so much cleaner and way more accessible (it's how I keep my copies on my pc).
Four, review assignment of perms. What they actually do and what that rank is viewed as, for example rank 3 is two leadership favours and seems to be viewed more the way that I view novicehood in the other games. GTS at rank 5 is a bit awkward and don't make much sense, for example rank 15 or guild official would mean that you've either worked up the favours to be effectively an elder, you are a guild leader, or you're an official (which seems potentially more helpful, having all the officials with access to the channel regardless of guild rank). Overall the only real way to add to the list of privs is to restrict library cards based on it or spend money expanding the guildhall with restricted access areas which I'm all for, though they are expensive from memory and lead to questions about whether it's worth it if say... only eight active members would get access.
Anyway, some rambling thoughts that I have been mulling over for some time. But guilds by design are something that every player should be in, seems like we should work to make them awesome.
-----
Things I dislike
-----
They're all the exactly same. This is probably exacerbated by the standardised titles in contrast to the other games where it seems that their actual title i.e "The Temporal Primus" appears wherever you see "Guildmaster" here. The "currently in the realm" section takes care of ensuring that the interested can find the right people to contact, so I'm not sure why this difference exists.
Semi-related is the inflexibility of the positions, right now I tend to prefer having a "novice helper type" so I want them to appear on cgwho, have the ability to advance novices, and maybe to be able to write to the logs rather than messaging me so everyone can see that the novice has been assisted. This would require getting them made a secretary and professor.
There could be more support for multiple communication channels, perhaps this is more linked to later points so lets get to them.
Org helps in general are a little.... awkward, in the past I know that trimming efforts have been made which eventually required dumping files into books and the hs index probably only represents half of the helps that exist for the guild (some are not there for specific reasons though)
The assignment of privs to rank is... lacking in incentives. I'm not sure how universal it is, but it feels like there is a focus on getting to rank 3 (ability to vote/contest) beyond that the incentives drop off, favouring for any sort of structured advancements falls to guild leaders for consistency cause depending on someone to be the right rank to give a lower favour seems infeasible. Giving GTS to everyone at rank 5 seems to enhance a feeling that the big focus is in the early ranks and the only person who I've seen rise to double digits in guild rank without going through gl is Astrasia who's been hartstone for ever.
------
Things I want to see
------
One, use the custom titles. It seems like it should be simple enough, if clarity is a concern then put the common title in parentheses.
Two, way more complicated but allow the customisation of all the positions other than master, admin, champion, envoy, and patron. Of course this would allow the current positions to remain intact for guilds that it works for, but over time guilds could slowly push out in their own directions if they wanted to.
Three A, Add customisable index to orghelps, this allows us to greet people with a nice file directing people where to go rather than a text dump of all files in that org.
Three B, Folders... oh gods, folders in midkemia look awesome especially given they appear to also be customisable with permissions. The ability to have a folder for novice helpers, and another one for the leadership, and one for just general advancement stuff, it would so much cleaner and way more accessible (it's how I keep my copies on my pc).
Four, review assignment of perms. What they actually do and what that rank is viewed as, for example rank 3 is two leadership favours and seems to be viewed more the way that I view novicehood in the other games. GTS at rank 5 is a bit awkward and don't make much sense, for example rank 15 or guild official would mean that you've either worked up the favours to be effectively an elder, you are a guild leader, or you're an official (which seems potentially more helpful, having all the officials with access to the channel regardless of guild rank). Overall the only real way to add to the list of privs is to restrict library cards based on it or spend money expanding the guildhall with restricted access areas which I'm all for, though they are expensive from memory and lead to questions about whether it's worth it if say... only eight active members would get access.
Anyway, some rambling thoughts that I have been mulling over for some time. But guilds by design are something that every player should be in, seems like we should work to make them awesome.
Eventru2012-08-02 13:33:05
Saran:
------
Things I want to see
------
One, use the custom titles. It seems like it should be simple enough, if clarity is a concern then put the common title in parentheses.
Only places I'm aware the short-hand is used is when the long-hand is potential to be too long to display.
Two, way more complicated but allow the customisation of all the positions other than master, admin, champion, envoy, and patron. Of course this would allow the current positions to remain intact for guilds that it works for, but over time guilds could slowly push out in their own directions if they wanted to.
We don't generally allow guilds to change guild rank titles as-is - when we do, it's very, very, very expensive and requires admin approval. I don't see it being made a player priv.
Three A, Add customisable index to orghelps, this allows us to greet people with a nice file directing people where to go rather than a text dump of all files in that org.
Three B, Folders... oh gods, folders in midkemia look awesome especially given they appear to also be customisable with permissions. The ability to have a folder for novice helpers, and another one for the leadership, and one for just general advancement stuff, it would so much cleaner and way more accessible (it's how I keep my copies on my pc).
Four, review assignment of perms. What they actually do and what that rank is viewed as, for example rank 3 is two leadership favours and seems to be viewed more the way that I view novicehood in the other games. GTS at rank 5 is a bit awkward and don't make much sense, for example rank 15 or guild official would mean that you've either worked up the favours to be effectively an elder, you are a guild leader, or you're an official (which seems potentially more helpful, having all the officials with access to the channel regardless of guild rank). Overall the only real way to add to the list of privs is to restrict library cards based on it or spend money expanding the guildhall with restricted access areas which I'm all for, though they are expensive from memory and lead to questions about whether it's worth it if say... only eight active members would get access.
How would you spread them out? I know climbing guild ranks are hard past 8 or so - don't you think we'd suddenly have an outcry for making guildfavours do more? Is GTS the only privs you'd bump up?
Anyway, some rambling thoughts that I have been mulling over for some time. But guilds by design are something that every player should be in, seems like we should work to make them awesome.
Llandros2012-08-02 14:09:41
Is there a list of all the customizations guilds can do/buy? Something like that with standardized prices would be helpful.
When caco bought a hard coded ritual with ambient messages and some really neat stuff (<3 Jael and Morgfyre) a lot of people were like omg you can do that!?!?!?! Other people who talked to their patrons to get one found out that they already had some.
I think things like that could go a long way to help people feel a greater sense of flavor and ownership of the guilds.
When caco bought a hard coded ritual with ambient messages and some really neat stuff (<3 Jael and Morgfyre) a lot of people were like omg you can do that!?!?!?! Other people who talked to their patrons to get one found out that they already had some.
I think things like that could go a long way to help people feel a greater sense of flavor and ownership of the guilds.
Enyalida2012-08-02 14:39:41
Eh.
The biggest problem I have with guilds is that the guild has very little it can actually do to censure or reward its members in a 'real' sense. Reward is generally a matter of ingenuity and rp, but punishment can be very hard, as there isn't really all that much you can enforce on another character, beyond just kicking them from the guild or ranking them down (though again, rank means very very little). Unfortunately, kicking someone out of the guild/org has the potential to really screw them up, as many archetypes cease to function properly at that point. So, it's either no real punishment or 'you-have-to-change-your-archetype-to-continue-playing-competitively.'
If anything is changed, that's what I'd like to see changed first. Introduce something like 'Guild probation', that can be customized by the guild leaders to different levels. That is, you can give one person a probation that strips their rank/appointed position powers but leaves their channel usage intact, but give someone else a probation that leaves their (let's say) security position powers active, while stripping their usage of GTS. Something like this would move towards a stronger sense of guild power, and possibly cut down on crazy unstoppable behaviors before it gets to the 'kick me out or deal with it' stage.
Saran:
Semi-related is the inflexibility of the positions, right now I tend to prefer having a "novice helper type" so I want them to appear on cgwho, have the ability to advance novices, and maybe to be able to write to the logs rather than messaging me so everyone can see that the novice has been assisted. This would require getting them made a secretary and professor.
I'm not sure what the problem is here. You want the ability to have sub-professors and under-undersecretaries?
Org helps in general are a little.... awkward, in the past I know that trimming efforts have been made which eventually required dumping files into books and the hs index probably only represents half of the helps that exist for the guild (some are not there for specific reasons though)
Agreed. Help files could work a little better.
The assignment of privs to rank is... lacking in incentives. I'm not sure how universal it is, but it feels like there is a focus on getting to rank 3 (ability to vote/contest) beyond that the incentives drop off, favouring for any sort of structured advancements falls to guild leaders for consistency cause depending on someone to be the right rank to give a lower favour seems infeasible. Giving GTS to everyone at rank 5 seems to enhance a feeling that the big focus is in the early ranks and the only person who I've seen rise to double digits in guild rank without going through gl is Astrasia who's been hartstone for ever.
Moving around guild privs wouldn't help, as there really just aren't any guild privs that are worth bothering to get. I've gotten a character to rank 15 on straight favors alone, nothing much really happens.
------
Things I want to see
------
Four, review assignment of perms. What they actually do and what that rank is viewed as, for example rank 3 is two leadership favours and seems to be viewed more the way that I view novicehood in the other games. GTS at rank 5 is a bit awkward and don't make much sense, for example rank 15 or guild official would mean that you've either worked up the favours to be effectively an elder, you are a guild leader, or you're an official (which seems potentially more helpful, having all the officials with access to the channel regardless of guild rank). Overall the only real way to add to the list of privs is to restrict library cards based on it or spend money expanding the guildhall with restricted access areas which I'm all for, though they are expensive from memory and lead to questions about whether it's worth it if say... only eight active members would get access.
The problem here is more that most of the privs aren't very useful anyways.
Anyway, some rambling thoughts that I have been mulling over for some time. But guilds by design are something that every player should be in, seems like we should work to make them awesome.
The biggest problem I have with guilds is that the guild has very little it can actually do to censure or reward its members in a 'real' sense. Reward is generally a matter of ingenuity and rp, but punishment can be very hard, as there isn't really all that much you can enforce on another character, beyond just kicking them from the guild or ranking them down (though again, rank means very very little). Unfortunately, kicking someone out of the guild/org has the potential to really screw them up, as many archetypes cease to function properly at that point. So, it's either no real punishment or 'you-have-to-change-your-archetype-to-continue-playing-competitively.'
If anything is changed, that's what I'd like to see changed first. Introduce something like 'Guild probation', that can be customized by the guild leaders to different levels. That is, you can give one person a probation that strips their rank/appointed position powers but leaves their channel usage intact, but give someone else a probation that leaves their (let's say) security position powers active, while stripping their usage of GTS. Something like this would move towards a stronger sense of guild power, and possibly cut down on crazy unstoppable behaviors before it gets to the 'kick me out or deal with it' stage.
Llandros2012-08-02 14:48:29
I actually would second the probation idea.
I really hate the idea of kicking someone and having all their lessons and stuff go to waste even if they are total jerks. GDFs really are rather meaningless. I think a way to block people from the guild channel and the guildhouse would be helpful. That way you can limit their negative influence without taking a more drastic step.
I really hate the idea of kicking someone and having all their lessons and stuff go to waste even if they are total jerks. GDFs really are rather meaningless. I think a way to block people from the guild channel and the guildhouse would be helpful. That way you can limit their negative influence without taking a more drastic step.
Saran2012-08-02 16:48:33
First, really shouldn't reply in the quote, makes responding a pain
@Eventru
Err not sure what game you're playing...
I'm talking about like when I go "help hartstone" I wanna see something like this...
The Hierophant of Hartstone: Enyalida
The Keeper of the Sacred Grove: Saran
The Heir of Glinshari: Raeri
Divine Patron: Hoaracle, the Forest Dreamer
Voice of Hartstone: Enyalida
Guardian of the Ancestral Spirits: Lehki and Enyalida
or GWHO
********************************************************
Guildmember Rank Position GT GNT CGT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saran * Keeper of the Sacred Gro On On On
*******************************************************************************
or
********************************************************
Guildmember Rank Position GT GNT CGT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saran * Keeper On On On
*******************************************************************************
It comes off as a bit more... consistent when you're making reference to the various positions by their actual title rather than the generic one. If a short form option is possible it would be nice for the gwho example.
For the next part, I was actually refering to a suggestion to allow the customisation of like... secretary/undersec/etc, for example structurally I would like to combine the undersecretary and professor privs, but right now I need to assign people to both and the only difference between the lists is that the professors one might be longer cause some secretaries might be on there too and well Auseklis is one. Which eventually evolved when I then thought that some people may not like that set up so went the flexible suggestion route.
For privs, honestly I think gts I'd be making a guild official priv. I'm not really sure of the point of it, five is still really early and with the views on guild ranks I've seen some people seem to view rank three as when you've completed novicehood, so I'd wonder about voting/contests but that's more an issue with concerns about the amount of time allowed for shaping newbies before they get there. I'm not entirely sure what else could be done, hesitant to suggest it but rank restricted powers came to mind, entirely flavourful but could be interesting (though i'd be suggesting mko rank system be borrowed for that, where being a gl just gives you a favour every ic year I think so when you step down you step down to the rank you've earned.)
@Enyalida
You've managed to get the exact opposite understanding about the positions, the issue I have with the system at current is that if given half a chance I'd probably combine professors and undersecretaries in a heartbeat, while also possibly giving them the writelog permission. For the reason that I was sitting wondering if I should make someone a professor or undersecretary, then just making them both because ideally that's what.
About guild privs, that itself is the issue. Realistically, you get rank 3 then you can vote, you don't need to be able to favour cause you're probably never going to use it unless you personally favour someone for something minor. I mean, we could create incentives right now by locking things down, no access to the guild hall til you graduate, if dain weren't inside, no access to the hall until you're rank 3-5, then we can save up and spend money to create incentives to reach the higher ranks, but that can become difficult because it would need to be more than just rooms but that's something the players can create and work towards, looking at the privs considering the layout and maybe seeing if new ones are possible is something only the admin can really do. Seriously, it was so awesome when I saw treesing and plant on my guild privs in Midkemia, cause I hadn't thought of privs like that before. Though it's a rank 1 priv there, maybe rank 5 could give teleport guildhall, a little convenience maybe customised for flavour?
@Eventru
Err not sure what game you're playing...
I'm talking about like when I go "help hartstone" I wanna see something like this...
The Hierophant of Hartstone: Enyalida
The Keeper of the Sacred Grove: Saran
The Heir of Glinshari: Raeri
Divine Patron: Hoaracle, the Forest Dreamer
Voice of Hartstone: Enyalida
Guardian of the Ancestral Spirits: Lehki and Enyalida
or GWHO
********************************************************
Guildmember Rank Position GT GNT CGT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saran * Keeper of the Sacred Gro On On On
*******************************************************************************
or
********************************************************
Guildmember Rank Position GT GNT CGT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saran * Keeper On On On
*******************************************************************************
It comes off as a bit more... consistent when you're making reference to the various positions by their actual title rather than the generic one. If a short form option is possible it would be nice for the gwho example.
For the next part, I was actually refering to a suggestion to allow the customisation of like... secretary/undersec/etc, for example structurally I would like to combine the undersecretary and professor privs, but right now I need to assign people to both and the only difference between the lists is that the professors one might be longer cause some secretaries might be on there too and well Auseklis is one. Which eventually evolved when I then thought that some people may not like that set up so went the flexible suggestion route.
For privs, honestly I think gts I'd be making a guild official priv. I'm not really sure of the point of it, five is still really early and with the views on guild ranks I've seen some people seem to view rank three as when you've completed novicehood, so I'd wonder about voting/contests but that's more an issue with concerns about the amount of time allowed for shaping newbies before they get there. I'm not entirely sure what else could be done, hesitant to suggest it but rank restricted powers came to mind, entirely flavourful but could be interesting (though i'd be suggesting mko rank system be borrowed for that, where being a gl just gives you a favour every ic year I think so when you step down you step down to the rank you've earned.)
@Enyalida
You've managed to get the exact opposite understanding about the positions, the issue I have with the system at current is that if given half a chance I'd probably combine professors and undersecretaries in a heartbeat, while also possibly giving them the writelog permission. For the reason that I was sitting wondering if I should make someone a professor or undersecretary, then just making them both because ideally that's what.
About guild privs, that itself is the issue. Realistically, you get rank 3 then you can vote, you don't need to be able to favour cause you're probably never going to use it unless you personally favour someone for something minor. I mean, we could create incentives right now by locking things down, no access to the guild hall til you graduate, if dain weren't inside, no access to the hall until you're rank 3-5, then we can save up and spend money to create incentives to reach the higher ranks, but that can become difficult because it would need to be more than just rooms but that's something the players can create and work towards, looking at the privs considering the layout and maybe seeing if new ones are possible is something only the admin can really do. Seriously, it was so awesome when I saw treesing and plant on my guild privs in Midkemia, cause I hadn't thought of privs like that before. Though it's a rank 1 priv there, maybe rank 5 could give teleport guildhall, a little convenience maybe customised for flavour?
Saran2012-08-02 17:07:54
Llandros:
Is there a list of all the customizations guilds can do/buy? Something like that with standardized prices would be helpful. When caco bought a hard coded ritual with ambient messages and some really neat stuff (<3 Jael and Morgfyre) a lot of people were like omg you can do that!?!?!?! Other people who talked to their patrons to get one found out that they already had some. I think things like that could go a long way to help people feel a greater sense of flavor and ownership of the guilds.
I think it's aetolia that lets the guild leader do things like build rooms, add mansey stuff, etc as if the guild were a manse, though they still need the admin for more than that.
Enyalida:
The biggest problem I have with guilds is that the guild has very little it can actually do to censure or reward its members in a 'real' sense. Reward is generally a matter of ingenuity and rp, but punishment can be very hard, as there isn't really all that much you can enforce on another character, beyond just kicking them from the guild or ranking them down (though again, rank means very very little).
I think I should mention one of the suggestions for guild honours was not an honour line, but a record where the guild leaders could effectively list favours permanently for that character. So, potentially something that you could build up over your characters lifetime and perhaps take with you.
Unfortunately, kicking someone out of the guild/org has the potential to really screw them up, as many archetypes cease to function properly at that point. So, it's either no real punishment or 'you-have-to-change-your-archetype-to-continue-playing-competitively.' If anything is changed, that's what I'd like to see changed first. Introduce something like 'Guild probation', that can be customized by the guild leaders to different levels. That is, you can give one person a probation that strips their rank/appointed position powers but leaves their channel usage intact, but give someone else a probation that leaves their (let's say) security position powers active, while stripping their usage of GTS. Something like this would move towards a stronger sense of guild power, and possibly cut down on crazy unstoppable behaviors before it gets to the 'kick me out or deal with it' stage.
First thing...
If someone is causing an issue and they need to lose the secretary privs... I'll remove them from the position. The only time it becomes an issue is when it needs to happen immediately and say the admin is there but it's security that needs to be removed. So even if probation is included, I'm not sure why it should affect something we can strip and return anyway.
My experience with guild probation has been mainly when it's used like a second novicehood. Though given the recent comments, that might not be a bad thing, though by the same note there aren't really any privs at rank one so it would just be a marker.
Punishments are always going to be difficult, we got bandrui is in serenwilde and, meant to be, separate from the commune because there was the issue that commune members cannot kill each other so she will kill them if the spirits deem their crimes worthy. But ultimately death seems rather meaningless unless you are a demi with low essence, stripping people of privs is less a punishment and more something that probably should happen if they're abusing them, fines are nothing to many, the only time a disfavour is going to really have an effect is if it knocks them below rank three. Probation stripping privs only works if there are privs worth stripping, for example if you strip gts from Astrasia she's just going to miss out on a whole lot of dead air.
Lehki2012-08-02 17:14:03
Saran:
About guild privs, that itself is the issue. Realistically, you get rank 3 then you can vote, you don't need to be able to favour cause you're probably never going to use it unless you personally favour someone for something minor. I mean, we could create incentives right now by locking things down, no access to the guild hall til you graduate, if dain weren't inside, no access to the hall until you're rank 3-5, then we can save up and spend money to create incentives to reach the higher ranks, but that can become difficult because it would need to be more than just rooms but that's something the players can create and work towards, looking at the privs considering the layout and maybe seeing if new ones are possible is something only the admin can really do. Seriously, it was so awesome when I saw treesing and plant on my guild privs in Midkemia, cause I hadn't thought of privs like that before. Though it's a rank 1 priv there, maybe rank 5 could give teleport guildhall, a little convenience maybe customised for flavour?
@Saran: About Dain, we asked to have him moved awhile back because we were tired of enemies flowing to novices that were learning to get inside the Grove. That's no longer an issue I think, because org shields block enemy's flowing now, so you probably could ask about letting Dain move back to his original spot.
Enyalida2012-08-02 17:31:53
Those were just examples. Being able to do things like restrict access (mechanically) to the guildhall, restrict access to normal GT, restrict access to posting/writing logs, restrict access to giving favors, and so on would be a nice addition, even before more privs are added.
Having customizable probation would also make it more possible to send a lighter message. Similar to the 'kicking out' versus 'punishment' idea, instead of stripping a rank that takes two guild leaders to reapply and usually has some sort of protocol/requirements/tasks to achieve, a light infraction can be penalized by a more overtly temporary effect, one that could even be given an automated timer. This would not only make it easier for everyone involved to keep track of the event and when the effects will end, but would make it clear to the concerned party that they are not being simply removed from power - though that would always be an option, of course.
That doesn't mean it'd be the only time it's ever used.
Having customizable probation would also make it more possible to send a lighter message. Similar to the 'kicking out' versus 'punishment' idea, instead of stripping a rank that takes two guild leaders to reapply and usually has some sort of protocol/requirements/tasks to achieve, a light infraction can be penalized by a more overtly temporary effect, one that could even be given an automated timer. This would not only make it easier for everyone involved to keep track of the event and when the effects will end, but would make it clear to the concerned party that they are not being simply removed from power - though that would always be an option, of course.
Saran:
My experience with guild probation has been mainly when it's used like a second novicehood. Though given the recent comments, that might not be a bad thing, though by the same note there aren't really any privs at rank one so it would just be a marker.
That doesn't mean it'd be the only time it's ever used.
Saran2012-08-02 17:36:34
Lehki:
@Saran: About Dain, we asked to have him moved awhile back because we were tired of enemies flowing to novices that were learning to get inside the Grove. That's no longer an issue I think, because org shields block enemy's flowing now, so you probably could ask about letting Dain move back to his original spot.
I remember. It was more a tangent cause of an idea that I have which could be expanded across ranks, but it would kinda be less cool if people just skip to the end as GLs. Locking down the hall not only requires moving Dain, but would require putting some things into helps that I don't really want cluttering the index or buying an initiates clan which is also unappealing so it was just an example of what could possibly be done ignoring why I wouldn't suggest it.
Llandros2012-08-02 17:51:47
Saran:
I think it's aetolia that lets the guild leader do things like build rooms, add mansey stuff, etc as if the guild were a manse, though they still need the admin for more than that.
You have to get your patron to make any changes but the guild still has to pay for them. Knowing what your options are and having a ballpark figure of how much it will cost would make stuff like that more manageable.
Saran2012-08-02 18:00:28
Llandros:
You have to get your patron to make any changes but the guild still has to pay for them. Knowing what your options are and having a ballpark figure of how much it will cost would make stuff like that more manageable.
Oh, I know how it works here, just mentioned it cause some of the expansions that have gone in are like... add this effect to the room.
Though this made me think of perhaps some guildleader only helpfiles for stuff like this.
Ssaliss2012-08-02 18:35:14
Saran:
First, really shouldn't reply in the quote, makes responding a pain
@Eventru
Err not sure what game you're playing...
I'm talking about like when I go "help hartstone" I wanna see something like this...
The Hierophant of Hartstone: Enyalida
The Keeper of the Sacred Grove: Saran
The Heir of Glinshari: Raeri
Divine Patron: Hoaracle, the Forest Dreamer
Voice of Hartstone: Enyalida
Guardian of the Ancestral Spirits: Lehki and Enyalida
or GWHO
********************************************************
Guildmember Rank Position GT GNT CGT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saran * Keeper of the Sacred Gro On On On
*******************************************************************************
or
********************************************************
Guildmember Rank Position GT GNT CGT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saran * Keeper On On On
*******************************************************************************
It comes off as a bit more... consistent when you're making reference to the various positions by their actual title rather than the generic one. If a short form option is possible it would be nice for the gwho example.
I'll just comment on this one, since I don't really have any real comments about the others:
Personally I prefer it the way it is. That way, it's easy for me to know if I'm talking to the GC, the GM or the GA of another guild if I need to bother them about something, without having to take the detour through "Okay, so it's the second name on the list, so it's the GA". The titles wouldn't tell me anything when it comes to another guild (for instance, "The High Wisdom of the Moon Coven" could mean either GA or GM to me).
Saran2012-08-03 03:27:48
Ssaliss:
I'll just comment on this one, since I don't really have any real comments about the others:
Personally I prefer it the way it is. That way, it's easy for me to know if I'm talking to the GC, the GM or the GA of another guild if I need to bother them about something, without having to take the detour through "Okay, so it's the second name on the list, so it's the GA". The titles wouldn't tell me anything when it comes to another guild (for instance, "The High Wisdom of the Moon Coven" could mean either GA or GM to me).
Yeah, that's why I suggested that the generic position be in parentheses So it'd be
The High Wisdom of the Moon Coven: Riluna (Guild Administrator)
Just got a bit lazy when editing. I just have the impression, I may be wrong, that most of the guilds I've been in/alted in tend to towards the actual title rather than the generic position.
Daganev2012-08-03 14:44:08
I think if the administrator was given privledges to build guild rooms and add effects given that the funds were approved by the GM would be great.
Riluna2012-08-03 19:38:48
They can. You just have to contact your patron to do it. Ask, and your patron will let you know how much it costs in gold and commodities. Or in guild credits for things like manse dwellers.
Saran2012-08-03 21:22:37
Riluna:
They can. You just have to contact your patron to do it. Ask, and your patron will let you know how much it costs in gold and commodities. Or in guild credits for things like manse dwellers.
I know and certain Daganev knows, the difference is that here you have to go to your patron, wait for the price, get the money, go back to the patron, wait for them to take the comms/gold/credits, then wait for them to complete the work. The process is the same if you want to add a single room, as it is if you want to add in... a maze that is constantly shifting with mobs running around inside of it.
The aetolia system functions more like a manse, with more options for example setting the environment type, inside/outside, willpower/endurance regen, add trade skill objects (alembic, oven). Effectively the guild can expand the hall in a minor sense on it's own, the things that only an admin can do require going to your patron, but if it's something that's sold in the manse shop for example, that's potentially something that could be coded to allow a guild leader to do.
Riluna2012-08-03 22:06:53
Yeah, I get that, but I don't get why it would make much of a difference, when you already can. Is the problem that you have to wait for it? I don't think guildhalls should be modifiable on a whim anyway. Guildhalls are not manses, they're more special than that, and for a much larger group of people. One person (or even two) deciding they want an underground labyrinth isn't enough to justify actually installing one, just like that.
I think the way it's currently set up is just fine. Modifications to a guildhall should have some sort of significance, IMHO, and you can add and discuss that significance with your patron every time, as it is now. Environment types, tradeskill artifacts, all that stuff can already be set and purchased then. You can even restrict access to the new sections to certain guild ranks (like the 'cellar' of the Moondance Tower for those above GR10), and create some pretty spectacular effects, (especially ritual things) all at the same time. But on a whim? Why?
I think the way it's currently set up is just fine. Modifications to a guildhall should have some sort of significance, IMHO, and you can add and discuss that significance with your patron every time, as it is now. Environment types, tradeskill artifacts, all that stuff can already be set and purchased then. You can even restrict access to the new sections to certain guild ranks (like the 'cellar' of the Moondance Tower for those above GR10), and create some pretty spectacular effects, (especially ritual things) all at the same time. But on a whim? Why?
Enyalida2012-08-03 22:13:43
I'm almost certain he's not talking about adding new rooms or changing room descs like a manse. There are certain types of buildings in the other games that orgs can own that work like that, but not guildhalls.
I think what he's getting at is that there are artifacts you can purchase that enhance rooms without changing the inherent nature of the room that would be infinitely more convenient to just be able to buy with guild credits (instead of personal credits) and install. Things like willpower regen or gems of stasis for furniture. Instead of going through the entire rigamarole of pestering an admin (who most certainly has some sort of project or job to work on) to inquire about the cost of such things, waiting for a reply, pestering them again with details on where it's wanted and waiting for them to go through with it, you could just go to the artifact shop and buy it for your guildhall.
'Personalized' or totally custom effects would still go through via direct admin intervention, but why waste everyone's time on totally run of the mill stuff?
I think what he's getting at is that there are artifacts you can purchase that enhance rooms without changing the inherent nature of the room that would be infinitely more convenient to just be able to buy with guild credits (instead of personal credits) and install. Things like willpower regen or gems of stasis for furniture. Instead of going through the entire rigamarole of pestering an admin (who most certainly has some sort of project or job to work on) to inquire about the cost of such things, waiting for a reply, pestering them again with details on where it's wanted and waiting for them to go through with it, you could just go to the artifact shop and buy it for your guildhall.
'Personalized' or totally custom effects would still go through via direct admin intervention, but why waste everyone's time on totally run of the mill stuff?
Saran2012-08-03 22:25:04
Riluna:
Yeah, I get that, but I don't get why it would make much of a difference, when you already can. Is the problem that you have to wait for it? I don't think guildhalls should be modifiable on a whim anyway. Guildhalls are not manses, they're more special than that, and for a much larger group of people. One person (or even two) deciding they want an underground labyrinth isn't enough to justify actually installing one, just like that.
Well as far as rooms go, which I'm not sure we'd necessarily want:
A) The costs would be the same, if there is a standard cost per room it would be that.
B) It depends on who influences the final result more, if it's primarily or entirely the players there's little difference in terms of just rooms
C) I'd expect there'd be all sorts of fail safes set up (logs, alerts for large scale creation/deletion, etc) so the admin can step in and get punish...y if elected people are abusing their privs.
@Enyalida, cause related actually Cities, Duiran, Guilds, and player housing all function the same according to the help file. I believe just Temples and Estates work that way for MKO. Not sure about the other two.
I think the way it's currently set up is just fine. Modifications to a guildhall should have some sort of significance, IMHO, and you can add and discuss that significance with your patron every time, as it is now. Environment types, tradeskill artifacts, all that stuff can already be set and purchased then. You can even restrict access to the new sections to certain guild ranks (like the 'cellar' of the Moondance Tower for those above GR10), and create some pretty spectacular effects, (especially ritual things) all at the same time. But on a whim? Why?
The issue here for me is that you're lumping them all together,
tradeskill artifacts, all that stuff can already be set and purchased then.
Manse artifacts, I could see becoming purchasable by the leaders via commands
You can even restrict access to the new sections to certain guild ranks (like the 'cellar' of the Moondance Tower for those above GR10), and create some pretty spectacular effects, (especially ritual things) all at the same time. But on a whim? Why?
All of this can never be done by players, for no other reason than each of those is a prog that you have to run and no one wants those to be creatable on a whim by players.
There is a very serious difference between those two groups.
